1. #1301
    alpha reck should have a 1 min cd ... complete rng and so little chances should not have more than 1 min imo

    if they want to keep the reck-feeling, just bake it into avatar, make the flat dmg-increase 10-15% and make it baseline and replace avatar with a sustained aoe-spell (like early alpha blade-barrier or what was its name)

    for all you guys who really suggest cds with more than 3 minutes:
    wake up, this is WoD were talking about, not vanilla ... really think about it... so much fun using a cd every 10 minutes...
    also, if reck has more than 3 mins, the crit-chance HAS to go up to 100% again, which will never happen, so forget about it, its more likely that we get a viable ranged attack befor that happens xD

  2. #1302
    Wait didn't we just spend 20 posts talking about this exact idea. And then the conclusion was made ( by most ) that we have too much aoe option right now? Please, we don't need another aoe cooldown instead of Avatar as a baseline, and believe me, I WANT avatar to replace reck, I just don't want another aoe option. What next? Fury Warriors put their offhand weapon on a chain and spin it around their head while bladestorming and standing on their ravager blade? We're going to need a debuff that has some sort of vomit debuff with all the spinning we're already doing =P.
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    Warriors are hereos that draw thier super human strength from thier relentless fury and thier unstoppeble willpower to fight on til the end of days.

  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by Sethanor View Post
    alpha reck should have a 1 min cd ... complete rng and so little chances should not have more than 1 min imo

    if they want to keep the reck-feeling, just bake it into avatar, make the flat dmg-increase 10-15% and make it baseline and replace avatar with a sustained aoe-spell (like early alpha blade-barrier or what was its name)

    for all you guys who really suggest cds with more than 3 minutes:
    wake up, this is WoD were talking about, not vanilla ... really think about it... so much fun using a cd every 10 minutes...
    also, if reck has more than 3 mins, the crit-chance HAS to go up to 100% again, which will never happen, so forget about it, its more likely that we get a viable ranged attack befor that happens xD
    Speaking of Vanilla, wasn't the original Shield Wall cooldown 30 minutes or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    There is also this thing
    Honestly didn't know it had that long of a CD; does it get reset automatically every attempt?

    But yeah, to clarify my previous post, this game doesn't need another 10 minute personal offensive cooldown

  4. #1304
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keensteel View Post
    Speaking of 10 min CD's, over on the mage forums they are calling for a 10 minute CD for Execute because it hits really, really hard and it can kill you. #civil #yolo

    Don't you do it, sjsctt. Nothing to see here, folks. Please move along.

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  5. #1305
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Speaking of Vanilla, wasn't the original Shield Wall cooldown 30 minutes or something?



    Honestly didn't know it had that long of a CD; does it get reset automatically every attempt?

    But yeah, to clarify my previous post, this game doesn't need another 10 minute personal offensive cooldown
    Yes it was, and it shared a CD with Recklessness and Retaliation. It is what I was refering to earlier when I said it was terrible in Classic/BC having to stand around and wait for Cooldowns to come back up before a boss. Worse it made for absolutely terrible balancing.

    Lay on Hands CD is also halved by a passive spell and I believe one of their talents reduces the cooldown through on Holy Power use.
    Lay on Hands CD was an hour originally, but that is fine since most Paladins were simple buff bots and out of combat rezzers!

  6. #1306
    A 10 minute cooldown sounds dumb. Honestly I think any cooldown longer than 3 minutes should be rebalanced downwards. 5/10 minute cooldowns just don't feel like they have a point to me, the only exception being maybe HOTW.

  7. #1307
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannival View Post
    Annoying? You just needed a swing timer and used slam right after your swing finished. Inbetween hits you used ms/ww/refreshed Bshout/used DW.
    (I know its 2 pages late, but I can't perma check threads anymore :<)
    I think its a really bad design if you need a swing timer to perform optimally, not only that you have to have external add-ons, but you have to focus a great deal of your attention to something, which could be better spend on the encounter. This gets diminished by experience and skill, but no matter if you play at top end level or somewhere down below, being able to mechanically play the most part of a spec to perform optimal is a great deal in raiding.
    I played Arms in Vanilla, BC and Wotlk and while the MoP version still is somewhat lackluster I think it is still the best iteration to date in terms of fun. Unfortunately it is still far behind fury in terms of decision making and planning ahead.

    On the topic of the whole recklessness discussion:
    Most of the (dps) cooldowns nowadays are 2 or 3 minutes, which has (as least) one reason: Interesting choices. I see some people here calling for cooldowns that lie between 6 and 10 minutes and while that would be certainly a more fitting theme of a powerful cooldown, it just does not fit in the design of endgame PvE (it also does not fit in the WoD design of PvP, but I won't discuss PvP here).
    Most of the current encounters take between 5 and 10 minutes execution time (10-15 for the last boss of a tier). With cooldowns between 6 and 10 minutes, you are forced to use your cooldown at the exact same time every time you fight the boss, because for (nearly) every encounter, there will always be at least one exact time, where you have to burst something down, or where you will deal the most damage (which is currently most of the time the pull or execute phase with trinkets up).
    With a 2 or 3 minute cooldown, you need to plan longer ahead. You have to make sure that your cooldowns are ready when they are needed but you also want to get the maximum amount of cooldowns per fight and the most bang of the buck for your button, which means you have to track trinket procs and their cooldowns and generally need to be more aware of the overall fight.
    tl;dr Shorter cooldowns lead to more (interesting) choices, where skill will matter much more than on high cooldown buttons.

    On the topic of the current recklessness iteration, I think the argument that it is a cooldown that has the potential to not do anything is pretty weak. Not only could you argue that for the MoP Reck+Banner as well (maybe minus guaranteed BT crits), but you had to be very unlucky to be the person that gets zero crits with 45+% critchance. It also finally allows crit trinkets to be used together with reck, which could be a good thing.

  8. #1308
    the problem isnt reck in the mop-form... the problem is reck in alpha-form paired with the already low as fuck crit-levels in T17 (and maybe early-mid T18) ...
    15% crit on a 3 min cd is just the worst dps-cooldown ever... 15% crit is worth 1 min cd TOPS but its still a really bad cd cause dps-cooldowns are supposed to boost your dmg and not make you a freakin slotmachine where you can hope you get at least smth out of it (might end up being 1 multistrike crit which proced from your lowest hitting non-crit during that time, or smth similar stupid like that... as i'm not sure on multistrike behaviour atm which doesnt matter for this argument ^^)

    edit: even a crit-proc-trinket with ~1 min inner-cd is better than alpha-reck (cause it has smth to it which is not random... like +xx str)

    the problem is not reck being "a bad idea", the problem is "alpha-iteration of reck is the worst dps-cooldown that can possibly be implemented design-wise"

  9. #1309
    Really need to stop complaining over numbers. They mean nothing at this point, as it has been stated multiple times that there are still numerous revisions to come with regards to tuning damage.
    This doesn't just mean spell coefficients, this includes cooldowns as well.

    What should be discussed right now is the relationship between abilities, how rotations work, what does and doesn't and players feelings towards them. Not a single person has argued that Reck should stay as low as it is, every single post has agreed it needs a buff. Two pages is plenty, move on to the next subject please!

  10. #1310
    Following Collision's question regarding aura application...does this means our CS combo is endangered? AFAIK we are able to squeeze that 4th global because of the aura delay on application.

    Edit: And just as I type this I remember we're getting reduced GCD through Headlong Rush...Would it theoretically be possible to get enough haste to squeeze 5-6 abilities in then?
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    Following Collision's question regarding aura application...does this means our CS combo is endangered? AFAIK we are able to squeeze that 4th global because of the aura delay on application.

    Edit: And just as I type this I remember we're getting reduced GCD through Headlong Rush...Would it theoretically be possible to get enough haste to squeeze 5-6 abilities in then?
    No and yes.
    Headlong Rush removes the necessity of the tail end on CS; and it is possible to fit a 5th GCD inside CS with enough Haste (I want to say the number was something like 8k Haste but can't remember offhand). A 6th GCD would be highly unlikely, at least not until late Expansion.
    As things are looking right now, it would be a DPS loss to gear exclusively for Haste to hit that number, but tuning and all that will determine.

    *For clarifications sake, when I say GCD I mean to include Heroic Strike/Ignite Weapon, which are also reduced by Headlong Rush, so you would fit 5/5 inside CS instead of 4/4. (unless your name is Rossi and then you will still only fit 3 at best )

    This also means Bloodlust would be a decent cooldown for us, and possibly even worth tracking to stack personal CD/Pot to get an additional GCD, but again that depends on tuning/damage (I think it will be more likely with improved dual wield Executes, that Reck + Potion would be better sub 20% as usual).

  12. #1312
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sethanor View Post
    edit: even a crit-proc-trinket with ~1 min inner-cd is better than alpha-reck (cause it has smth to it which is not random... like +xx str)
    Good point, skeers added 25% crit on average over the timespan over 10s. I'd like them to change reck from crit into either %flat damage and redo avatar or guaranteed crits for a set amount of attacks.

    For haste: paladins are already capable of doing that at 21500 haste, netting them a 1.0 gcd instead of 1.5 gcd. But this should only be interesting/attractive at the end of the coming expansion if at all (unlikely for the expansion prepatch because we can't reach critcap AND hastecap).
    Last edited by mmoc9d5efa7d44; 2014-06-18 at 12:03 PM.

  13. #1313
    At this point, can you say or guess if it's worth it to stack haste and extend that CS window? Because with the loss of Storm Bolt for every combo (barring Anger Management maybe), the 2 charge limit on RB and the change to Berserker Rage, most of these GCDs would be filled with Wild Strikes.

    Playing my war with lower GCD is gonna feel so weird...
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  14. #1314
    From 2 posts and 6 minutes ago...

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    As things are looking right now, it would be a DPS loss to gear exclusively for Haste to hit that number, but tuning and all that will determine.
    Keep in mind, Bloodthirsts cooldown is reduced as well, so that extra GCDs would just go to an extra BT. It compresses the whole rotation, so it would go:
    BT - CS - RB - BT - SB - RB - BT [CS end]
    (barring swapping up the rotation/doing something funky to attempt to fit more abilities)

  15. #1315
    Deleted
    Regarding this from yesterdays hotfix notes.....

    Will Fury Execute OH function like RB OH, Storm Bolt OH or Whirlwind OH? Also, did any of the following mechanics change?
    In Warlords, as of next build...

    Execute, Raging Blow, and Storm Bolt will work like this: Perform the Mainhand hit roll. If successful, also fire the Offhand attack, which always hits. (Same as now for RB, different for SB, new for Ex)

    EDIT: Slight technicality here, if you're looking at the spell IDs involved in the logs. RB's root spell is just a cover spell that contains separate MH and OH spells. The root spell can miss, the MH/OH spells cannot.

    For SB/Ex, the root spell is the MH damage, which can miss. If it hits, it fires the OH spell, which cannot miss.
    Anyone think this will be a moderate damage boost when it comes to Fury? PVE & PVP.... Curious.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Really need to stop complaining over numbers. They mean nothing at this point, as it has been stated multiple times that there are still numerous revisions to come with regards to tuning damage.
    This doesn't just mean spell coefficients, this includes cooldowns as well.

    What should be discussed right now is the relationship between abilities, how rotations work, what does and doesn't and players feelings towards them. Not a single person has argued that Reck should stay as low as it is, every single post has agreed it needs a buff. Two pages is plenty, move on to the next subject please!
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase

  17. #1317
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase
    Dark soul for destro warlocks is one.

  18. #1318
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    Dark soul for destro warlocks is one.
    Not entirely comparable since chaos bolt's damage scales with crit chance as well as mastery.

  19. #1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase
    Crit chance = flat damage increase for fury warriors

  20. #1320
    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    Anyone think this will be a moderate damage boost when it comes to Fury? PVE & PVP.... Curious.
    Maybe I'm too tired/too dumb but what exactly (if anything) would this change in comparison to PVE? We always cap our expertise which makes any roll chance (assuming we're behind the boss) irrelevant. In PVP it still won't mean much from what it does now since from what I can tell from that paragraph it's all already based on whether or not the MH connects, with just SB currently having a not guaranteed hit if the MH does connect.

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