Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[Dreyen]

Hey!.. i actually used bristling fur tonight for mythic oregorger, no shieldwall hurts pretty bad on acid torrent

[Miko]

Hey!.. i actually used bristling fur tonight for mythic oregorger, no shieldwall hurts pretty bad on acid torrent

Tanking those mythics, did you feel like you was getting shit on? Or did you feel comfortable tanking them?

Also, I don't care for any of the lvl 100 talents. Bristling Fur should just give us a passive armor buff or make it some kinda bear stagger. Pulverize shouldn't be even a choice it should be tied into something else because as it sits its just going to be another button to hit, maybe if when you used Pulverize it would aoe too idk. Maybe it's just me but I thought they where taking away the bloat, it seems they took away the fun and added stuff that isn't.

[Jaydenkor]

Oh, and inb4 "Berserk and Mangle is an AoE!", please note that I didn't list any of the other classes 3 target cleave abilities. Revenge, Avenger's Shield and Keg Smash say hi. This is why DKs are pissed about Heart Strike being gone, it took away a tool that all 4 other Tanks have. Yes, Bears can compete on 3 targets (for 15 seconds every 3 minutes!) but that isn't the point of this post. 3 targets per GCD means nothing when 5 adds are about to kill your DPS, and Thrash simply isn't enough.

Just wanted to point out that keg smash no longer (at least in live.. did they re-add it in beta?) no longer has a target limit. It is brewmasters version of Thunderclap, AND they have SCK

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Two- All tanks generate 900% additional threat. In order for a dps to out-threat you,

Can you source this please?
Last I heard, tanks were a 5x (500%) threat modifier, not 9x.

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Now, something I am currently unsure of- did they remove the 200% extra threat modifier on Taunts? If that's still baked in, you simple taunt primary threat target, mangle it, and dps will never, EVER pull threat off you, as long as you continue to do some modicum of damage on it.

Yes, they removed the threat mod on taunts.. and just about every high end raiding tank is bitching about it because it makes taunt swaps a PITA.
Hopefully it comes back, but yes, atm it HAS been removed.

[Arielle]

Yes, they removed the threat mod on taunts.. and just about every high end raiding tank is bitching about it because it makes taunt swaps a PITA.

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with tank DPS being wildly unbalanced right now.

[Jaydenkor]

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with tank DPS being wildly unbalanced right now.

huh?

I was just answering the guy I was quotings' question. I didn't intend for that statement to have anything to do with tank dps and balancing issues.. Simply that the +200% threat you generate for the 3 sec taunt debuff duration.... is now gone.

[Rivin]

Can you source this please?
Last I heard, tanks were a 5x (500%) threat modifier, not 9x.

It's +600% on live and +900% in beta. See:

Bear Form Passive 2 vs Bear Form Passive 2

[exochaft]

If you want to level fast, don't do it as a Tank. Its not anywhere near as fast as MoP leveling as a tank was. I've done it.

Depends how ya do it and your gear level going in... and damage tuning still hasn't been completed yet, so comparisons are a bit hard. If you have upgraded heroic (soon-to-be-Mythic) gear while leveling, it's insanely how fast things die even as a bear... it only starts to slow down around Spires/Nagrand when the intended ilvl gap shrinks. Typical solution is to just pull more, made even easier when you get no CD on Faerie Fire. If you're leveling in a group, certain no reason to not do it as a bear... certainly beats Feral hands-down with current tuning from my experience unless the mob has a LOT of health. Even with messing around, playing with my kid and going AFK while logged in, killing extra rare spawns for supplies, doing extra garrison stuff, and reporting bugs in quests, leveling from 90 to 100 took under 12 hours as a Guardian easily. Going serious mode would probably have been around 10-11 hours, and going DPS really won't change that time much at all.

Also, if you're leveling on a PvP server, bears are pretty resilient even against group ganks. Had quite a few 3v1 experiences I walked away from unscathed on the PvP leveling server as a bear.

[Raugnaut]

Something that I am wondering...

In 5.4, all tank specs got a +40% threat boost to make up for the loss of vengeance due to vengeance changes (tied to the spec, not to stances. ATM, a guardian druid in caster form generates 40% more threat from spells then a boomkin, for instance). Is that still in?

[Dreyen]

Tanking those mythics, did you feel like you was getting shit on? Or did you feel comfortable tanking them?.

Not really, oregorger didnt seem to hit that hard tbh, probably to make up for the fact you gotta blow all your CDs on acid torrent?

[Ryoohki]

So with the new changes to T&C our T17 2 set will make it refund 10 rage when used. That should make T&C pull way ahead of FR in damage mitigation per rage. Right?

[Callsignecho]

So with the new changes to T&C our T17 2 set will make it refund 10 rage when used. That should make T&C pull way ahead of FR in damage mitigation per rage. Right?

I guess that would depend on how much the 4 piece buffs FR. 10 rage T&C is amazing, but does it pull ridiculously ahead of a 70 rage FR?

[Braindwen]

I guess that would depend on how much the 4 piece buffs FR. 10 rage T&C is amazing, but does it pull ridiculously ahead of a 70 rage FR?

Yes, quite a bit, considering a 20 rage T&C is already better than a 60 rage FR.

Though if the 4pc works exactly the way it's worded, you wouldn't want to do 70 rage FRs. You'd want to push FR when you've got 1-5 rage or so, whenever you've got a pittance left after casting something. However, if it actually does work that way, then whoever designed it is a little dumb , and should probably just re-write it to say "buffs FR by 16.7%".

[Raugnaut]

I guess that would depend on how much the 4 piece buffs FR. 10 rage T&C is amazing, but does it pull ridiculously ahead of a 70 rage FR?

Yea. ATM, TC is... ~25% more rage efficient then FR in mitigating damage? And it deals some damage to boot. FR is used only when you NEED the heal, or on Lei Shei 2.0

[Miko]

Not really, oregorger didnt seem to hit that hard tbh, probably to make up for the fact you gotta blow all your CDs on acid torrent?

Thank you, I really want to play my druid..I just don't wanna struggle.

[Dreyen]

Thank you, I really want to play my druid..I just don't wanna struggle.

honestly, all tanks will be balanced when the game comes out.. if not theyll be tuned through hotfixes. The bear nerfs were justified and the damage intake we take on all the bosses ive tested feels perfectly fine. I think we could use some more self-healing however, feels weird that a warrior takes less damage (which is fine, they are the highest DR tank now) but heal as much as they absorb through sheild barrier..

[Miko]

honestly, all tanks will be balanced when the game comes out.. if not theyll be tuned through hotfixes. The bear nerfs were justified and the damage intake we take on all the bosses ive tested feels perfectly fine. I think we could use some more self-healing however, feels weird that a warrior takes less damage (which is fine, they are the highest DR tank now) but heal as much as they absorb through sheild barrier..

Ya I figured we would get tuned down a bit. As it is now things are just kinda crazy, my Guardian's tank dmg and burst is crazy.
y

[Smag]

Is it just me or shields were not working just right now on Butcher? Our bear tank got raped so hard... No shields in logs anywere.

[Arielle]

Is it just me or shields were not working just right now on Butcher? Our bear tank got raped so hard... No shields in logs anywere.

I don't suppose anyone has a combat log?

[Braindwen]

Versatility is still a huge problem though.

Since you're not dropping this and spreading it wherever you can, I guess I'll elaborate on why you're wrong.

Your main argument, from what I can see, is that versatility is a problem because it double-dips. In other words, because it gives us damage reduction and healing, it needs to be nerfed. This ignores, of course, almost every other stat we have.

Agility? Reduces damage taken (dodge), increases healing done (attack power).
Bonus Armor? Reduces damage taken (armor), increases healing done (attack power).
Mastery? Reduces damage taken (PT), increases healing done (attack power).

Crit and haste are currently terrible largely because they don't fit this bill. Still, let's look at the past for haste, and a common suggestion for crit.

Haste in the past, when it was competitive (and you liked it as a stat): Reduces damage taken (more T&C), increases healing done (more rage=more FR)
A common suggestion to make crit a competitive, albeit somewhat dull stat was to add dodge to it: Reduces damage taken (dodge), increases healing done (more rage=more FR).

In general, any stat that wants to be competitive right now double-dips. The ones that don't are either terrible (crit+haste), or do something different enough that they're free to scale very strongly (e.g. multistrike is worth ~4% health for the rating to get .5% DR from versatility). The last stat, stamina, is crap because it half-dips, increasing health but reducing healing done.

You could argue that no stat should be double-dipping like this because it makes our gear scaling potentially too good. The solution to that, though, isn't "nerf versatility", it's "nerf everything".

You might think versatility shouldn't be a competitive stat because of its off-role (or, "versatility") benefits. This makes sense for DPS and Healers, because versatility does something that no other stat for them does, reduce damage taken. For tanks, this doesn't come into play. Versatility makes us more survivable, but so does every other stat. Versatility increases our damage, but so does every other stat. Versatility increases our raid-healing through buffing HT, Rejuv, and CW, yes, but so does multistrike, haste, crit, and agility. Versatility provides no unique "versatility" to make up for it being a bad stat. It needs to be competitive for survivability and damage in its own right, or we'll just pretend it doesn't exist.

Yes, I'm annoyed and I'm ranting. I don't want a perfectly fine secondary stat ruined because you got the wrong idea and ran with it, because people will listen to you. If you want crit and haste to be competitive, focus on getting them buffed and not getting versatility nerfed. If you want double-dipping to go away, stop ignoring 3/4 stats that feature it prominently in favor of attacking the fourth.

[Trubo]

Braindwn and Arielle, just curious what our current best two stats will be for gear that can and can't have bonus armor. The first case seems to be bonus armor+? and the second case I've heard is versatility+mastery.