Mage Patch Notes ARE Dumbing Down the Class

[TheWorkingTitle]

Everything isn't set in stone people! BUT for me, these changes look pretty nice. I play mostly pve though, so not to sure how this will go with pvp'ers.

I wouldn't look to much into this, I'd play the beta/game in general when these changes go live before just calling it quits.

Well as this is the first iteration of these notes, there is a possibility these things could go unchanged. I wouldn't want that to happen without being heard and bouncing my ideas off other Mages', savvy?

Being able to play beta would be very beneficial so let's hope we all get to.

[Alroxas]

My horizons tell me that we should be getting MORE spells, not losing any or the ability to use them because of the specific specialization I may be using.

If these spells aren't mandatory, then new players don't have to use them. They can do just fine without them and then as they become better players, they can start to incorporate those "back-burner" spells into more complex situations. Don't you think that is more ideal than losing it altogether?

Uniqueness is needed imho, and I completely agree that flavor is nice to have.

But the problem is that these "back-burner" spells do become mandatory if you want to perform well. Best example I can think of is Alter Time. Technically new players don't need to use Alter Time but it becomes very powerful if you know how to use it offensively. Problem is the learning curve is pretty darn steep and frankly I couldn't figure out how to use it properly till I configured WeakAuras to let me know the optimal times to use it.

Honestly, I think it would be better if the average new player could pick up WoW and play it well (if not very well) in both PvE and PvP environments without the need for using ANY addons.

No bar mods, no UI mods, nothing... well ok maybe the exception being DBM or something similar in a Raid setting.

[Deleted]

We ARE getting new spells. The new talents are awesome. Heck the new empowered nova spells are amazing. There's your kiting. Also L2P.

[TheWorkingTitle]

But the problem is that these "back-burner" spells do become mandatory if you want to perform well. Best example I can think of is Alter Time. Technically new players don't need to use Alter Time but it becomes very powerful if you know how to use it offensively. Problem is the learning curve is pretty darn steep and frankly I couldn't figure out how to use it properly till I configured WeakAuras to let me know the optimal times to use it.

Honestly, I think it would be better if the average new player could pick up WoW and play it well (if not very well) in both PvE and PvP environments without the need for using ANY addons.

No bar mods, no UI mods, nothing... well ok maybe the exception being DBM or something similar in a Raid setting.

I wouldn't consider Alter-Time a backburner spell in any regard. What I'm referring to is using Cone of Cold or Blizzard as a Fire Mage or Frost Nova as an Arcane Mage etc.

New players can pick up the game very easily with only using minimal spells. As they progress they should be able to use more and more spells in cohesion with each other, or at the very least have the ability to do-so. This patch would change that and where the problem lies-there-in.

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We ARE getting new spells. The new talents are awesome. Heck the new empowered nova spells are amazing. There's your kiting. Also L2P.

At the expense of losing valuable others. Keep your passive aggressiveness to yourself. Or are you here to just champion your "I called it" thread, l o l.

[Bullettime]

Every class is losing stuff. Mages take a kiting hit but at the same time, so are other ranged. And with ranged having less kiting tools, melee need less ways to jump on our face.

I'm sorry that you feel Mages should be unique in keeping 50000000 ways to keep a melee off you in every spec, but every single class is losing stuff and for good reason. Mages took more of a hit though as they're pretty much the single largest contributor to the PvP arms race. Their insane kiting tools and burst led to Blizzard having to boost melee in order to remotely deal with Mages in PvP, which resulted in every other range needing more ways to kite and/or sustain to combat the buffed melee.

This is Blizzard trying to stop the arms race and bring things back down to reasonable levels. It's not fun in PvP where you're permanently slowed, rooted, stunned, etc. You spend more time staring at the crowd control alert than actually playing.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Every class is losing stuff. Mages take a kiting hit but at the same time, so are other ranged. And with ranged having less kiting tools, melee need less ways to jump on our face.

I'm sorry that you feel Mages should be unique in keeping 50000000 ways to keep a melee off you in every spec, but every single class is losing stuff and for good reason. Mages took more of a hit though as they're pretty much the single largest contributor to the PvP arms race. Their insane kiting tools and burst led to Blizzard having to boost melee in order to remotely deal with Mages in PvP, which resulted in every other range needing more ways to kite and/or sustain to combat the buffed melee.

This is Blizzard trying to stop the arms race and bring things back down to reasonable levels. It's not fun in PvP where you're permanently slowed, rooted, stunned, etc. You spend more time staring at the crowd control alert than actually playing.

You bring up great points for a completely different discussion. Mostly about PvP and PvE needing to be separate entities and that they shouldn't permeate into each other.

This is about Mages being able to use their whole array of skills at any given time (to the point that they can right now - im not championing for more) and not just 1 of the 3 specializations. Arcane is EVERYTHING, not just 1 slice of the pie.

[Deleted]

Dumbing down? You actually feel smart while playing a mage?

Infracted.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Dumbing down? You actually feel smart while playing a mage?

Ooh, got me there didn't ya? Thanks for your constructive posts - they really contributed to this discussion.

I'd feel dumber if I couldn't use Forst/Arcane spells of my Mage's arsenal because I was Fire - I can tell ya that much.

[Deleted]

But how much sense does the specs make then if you can still use frost spells while in fire-spec? Doesnt make much sense to me.

[TheWorkingTitle]

But how much sense does the specs make then if you can still use frost spells while in fire-spec? Doesnt make much sense to me.

Let me help you with that notion. Mages master Arcane Magic. Fire and Frost are made from Arcane magic. Therefore, you should be able to use (Blizzard selected) spells upon using any of the 3 specializations. Not being able to use any of them, would make very little sense Lore/Design-wise.

[Tragedia]

Let me help you with that notion. Mages master Arcane Magic. Fire and Frost are made from Arcane magic. Therefore, you should be able to use (Blizzard selected) spells upon using any of the 3 specializations. Not being able to use any of them, would make very little sense Lore/Design-wise.

It makes sense because as a Fire Mage you turn your Arcane spells into fire. It seems pretty ridiculous having a Fire Mage using Frost magic and Arcane spells.

[TheWorkingTitle]

It makes sense because as a Fire Mage you turn your Arcane spells into fire. It seems pretty ridiculous having a Fire Mage using Frost magic and Arcane spells.

When you master Arcane magic you have to ability to call upon any of the 3 schools at your disposal. Talents only enhance your ability to do so.

[Tragedia]

When you master Arcane magic you have to ability to call upon any of the 3 schools at your disposal. Talents only enhance your ability to do so.

Then there would be different differentiation between specs.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Then there would be different differentiation between specs.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Could you re-word?

[ro9ue]

I'd hardly call it dumbing it down. If anything, removing some of your CC makes it more challenging so you make sure to use things sparingly. It takes less skill to just rotate through 10 CC buttons instead of having 3 and knowing when to use them.

[TheWorkingTitle]

I'd hardly call it dumbing it down. If anything, removing some of your CC makes it more challenging so you make sure to use things sparingly. It takes less skill to just rotate through 10 CC buttons instead of having 3 and knowing when to use them.

Those additional CC spells aren't mandatory rotational abilities but are there to be used if you know how to do so. With a global cool-down you all ready have to use sparingly. The skill is using many abilities in cohesion with one another for a desired result. Taking away that complexity in essence, "dumbs it down".

[Wilderness]

You can't use wow lore or the ideas behind that lore to try and explain why or how gameplay should work - the gameplay and balance aspects will always come first; they will try to make the lore and ideas match up at least somewhat but its not going to work in reverse.

I understand why its going to be an adjustment as they make these changes, but changes like this (the pruning of abilities) are absolutely necessary. Each expansion, they have to introduce new spells, or ideas, or other ways to keep the game evolving and changing. Say what you will with how the game has been run over the years, and how the sub numbers have gone, but had WoW kept things the same as vanilla for 9 years, people would be bored to death.

So, when you have to keep changing and adding things, the problem you are going to arrive at eventually is that you'll start having too many things. Which is where it is - or if not quite there, it probably would be if WoD just added on more stuff like other expansions.

I think you're being a little dramatic about the loss of kiting abilities. To begin with, our specs *should* have different things that they do well. If frost is better at kiting, that's fine, as long as the other two have strengths as well (better burst, better AoE, whatever). And we really won't know how all that will shake out until things are progressing in Beta and numbers are actually being attached to this.

Also, while Arcane and Fire are losing some of their kiting tools they are also gaining a little to offset that - improved blink and scorch. 2 seconds of 60% speed after blink isn't a ton, but Arcane also gets to throw up Slow on multiple targets now too. Fire doesn't really have a slow, but they can run around spamming scorch for 30% increased speed and using instants, blastwave, and dragon's breath to gain space or time to use spells with a cast time. Kiting with Fire or Arcane may be different and take some time to master, but there's nothing in these incredibly early patch notes that says they are just going to be unable to do it because they don't have CoC or Blizzard anymore.

[TheWorkingTitle]

but there's nothing in these incredibly early patch notes that says they are just going to be unable to do it because they don't have CoC or Blizzard anymore.

While I read your whole post, this is what stood out most to my problem I have with the patch notes. I never said Mages would be unable to do-so. It's the mechanic change of not being able to use spells outside of your specialization. That is drastically different from how the game has always been for Mages. That is point I attempted to make.

[Wilderness]

While I read your whole post, this is what stood out most to my problem I have with the patch notes. I never said Mages would be unable to do-so. It's the mechanic change of not being able to use spells outside of your specialization. That is drastically different from how the game has always been for Mages. That is point I attempted to make.

Ah, then I guess I misunderstood some of what you were saying earlier in this thread.

While it is obviously a change in not being able to use some of the other spells from other schools of magic while specced for another one, I'm not sure why its that big of a problem. I don't think its ever been particularly common for mages of one spec to be using a lot of spells from another tree outside of very specific situations (like kiting as Fire/Arcane, trying to solo old content, etc). At least for the PVE aspects of the game. In PVP, yes, a lot of these different spells were used for their ability to slow, stun, daze, or whatever. But even then I see why they are trying to reset the arms race of all the cc and abilities that ranged and melee have gained over the years to try to counter each other so I don't see it as a problem.

[Seezer]

Everything is being dumbed down.