So Bear-Cat was OP, but Gladiator Stance is acceptable?

[Arielle]

Why would I hate on something I honestly would love to see in game if properly implemented? Not hating on the thought of it, I am calling out bad design as a bad design. It needs to be 2 SPECS as it is 2 100% viable roles and both the PvP implications of this and the demands of others due to this will be horrible.

FWIW Celestalon has tweeted last week that they're going to make sure people can't viably swap into/out of Glad in PvP.

[Fugus]

FWIW Celestalon has tweeted last week that they're going to make sure people can't viably swap into/out of Glad in PvP.

Glad to hear. Can you post a link please?

Want to see how they implement that. Stance locking in BGs and Arena would fix most of the PvP issues since world PvP is dead but would still leave world PvP in a more broken state than it is now.

Still does nothing to remedy the fact that you can expect plenty of outcry from just about every other class capable of more than DPS to be asking for similar treatment.

[Danuru]

There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )

[Challenge]

You guys are speculating more over a warrior talent than warriors are lol.

[Fugus]

There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )

Nah, make it where Feral is default DPS.

1) Have Cat form do rogue style DPS while in bear form you do Arms Warrior style DPS.
2) Then have a level 100 talent that flips the script and guts their DPS for tanking abilities.
3) Then have Bear form do Prot Warrior style tanking while Cat form does DK style tanking.

Then you have feral either being 100% DPS in both forms or 100% tank in both forms and can only be changed by a talent that can only be done out of combat and still gives them access to both forms.

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You guys are speculating more over a warrior talent than warriors are lol.

With how similar it is to what feral lost, it has a lot of old school ferals watching it closely and many feel like they are getting what was taken from us in a new flavor.

[Challenge]

If anything, death knights should be more upset.

Blood dps was actually a thing. More people would of advocated blood dps rather than prot warrior dps.

Also it's not REALLY like old school feral.

Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds.

Tank, then do almost full committed dps in cat form when off tanking.Their glyphs and stat priorty were pretty identical if I recall correctly.

I hope this experiment works and is spread to other tanks. I enjoyed blood dps.

[Epoch]

When you said the following - "Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds." Are you referring to "old school feral" as in vanilla, tbc or wotlk?

[Mormolyce]

There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )

But you can do that... by swapping spec to Feral...

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If anything, death knights should be more upset.

Blood dps was actually a thing. More people would of advocated blood dps rather than prot warrior dps.

Also it's not REALLY like old school feral.

Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds.

Tank, then do almost full committed dps in cat form when off tanking.Their glyphs and stat priorty were pretty identical if I recall correctly.

I hope this experiment works and is spread to other tanks. I enjoyed blood dps.

Yeah. I did think it was kind of strange to choose Warriors who have no history of blended specs. Especially after they more or less deemed the old DK "tank in any spec" design a failure.

Guess things are different now.

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When you said the following - "Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds." Are you referring to "old school feral" as in vanilla, tbc or wotlk?

IIRC it was about that in Cata and Wrath, not sure about prior.

I remember it being particularly awkward in Cata - you were missing something like 3 main talent points from each spec so you ALMOST were a true hybrid but not quite.

[Challenge]

Cata mostly and Wotlk yes.

[Raugnaut]

Nah, make it where Feral is default DPS.

1) Have Cat form do rogue style DPS while in bear form you do Arms Warrior style DPS.
2) Then have a level 100 talent that flips the script and guts their DPS for tanking abilities.
3) Then have Bear form do Prot Warrior style tanking while Cat form does DK style tanking.

Then you have feral either being 100% DPS in both forms or 100% tank in both forms and can only be changed by a talent that can only be done out of combat and still gives them access to both forms.

Hrmm, it would have to be in a different form then a lvl 100 talent for that to happen, as that would completely prevent druids from tanking at low lvls. Possibly a glyph that caused that effect for feral/guardian (You pick it, as feral, things happen to Bear form that makes it dps at the cost of its tanking stuff, and if you pick it as Guardian, things happen to cat that raises its defensives to compete with bear form, with its damage output remaining the same as Bear Form.)

That actually makes me wonder now- what will happen to Cat form with the vengeance/tank dps changes for Bears? ATM, with 0 vengeance, you technically do more damage in cat form then bear form. Will Guardians cat form dps be upped to be on par with the bear dps, or will it simply become a form you go into whenever you want to dash or prowl? (not taking into account HotW's power with it). If its the later, then perhaps the Bear Hug perk can instead make it to where you can cast dash/prowl in bear form.

[WarpKnight]

OP asks a question and gets a very well said answer from multiple people and gets angry and tries to argue a point not relevant to the topic. Why do people do this? Bear-cat was tanking and dpsing while in combat, Gladiator Stance is DPSing for the whole fight/as long as you are talented into it. VERY different, you are comparing parts of the specs that people had no issue with and are using that as your arguing point.

Gladiator stance is not an off tank stance, its a pure DPS stance for someone who wants to DPS with a prot like playstyle. Enlightenment for everyone, cheers! <[:^)

End of thread.

Gladiator Stance replaces Defensive Stance.

[Raugnaut]

IIRC it was about that in Cata and Wrath, not sure about prior.

I remember it being particularly awkward in Cata - you were missing something like 3 main talent points from each spec so you ALMOST were a true hybrid but not quite.

Not really awkward. There were a few +dps things that you would miss as a feral (Wild Strikes, +15% FB damage, 20 extra energy whenever you used TF or Berserk), and as bear, you would miss those same talents (Wild strikes, FF instantly procs 3 stacks of sunders instead of one, 15 extra enrage when you use enrage or Berserk, and perseverance, 6% less magic damage taken). Since the bear one only missed some dps/QoL ones with a minor, minor tanking one compared to a full bear, it wasn't awkward on part of the bear. Of course, for feral, it was about a 10% dps loss. For bear, it was maybe a 4% dps loss, with the minor 6% less damage taken.

But yea, bear-kitty was pretty powerful in cata, gave bears/ferals a HUGE boost in utility. Combine that with their ability to cast Tranquility, and even the T13 4 piece that made it to where frenzied regen would heal the raid, and druids, at the time, had the LARGEST utility out of all the tanks and dps.

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End of thread.

Gladiator Stance replaces Defensive Stance.

You are behind the times. Glad Stance replaces Battle Stance, but you are unable to swap to it in combat.

[Neemo]

In response the OP question.

Yes. That is all.

[WarpKnight]

You are behind the times. Glad Stance replaces Battle Stance, but you are unable to swap to it in combat.

Herp derp. Alpha gonna alpha I guess. Although that has the net same effect.

[Neemo]

ITT: Opinions as facts.

[nyc81991]

What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.

[Braindwen]

Not really awkward. There were a few +dps things that you would miss as a feral (Wild Strikes, +15% FB damage, 20 extra energy whenever you used TF or Berserk), and as bear, you would miss those same talents (Wild strikes, FF instantly procs 3 stacks of sunders instead of one, 15 extra enrage when you use enrage or Berserk, and perseverance, 6% less magic damage taken).

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Wild strikes", closest I can think of is fury swipes and that was mandatory for bearcat (being one of the best DPS talents in the tier for bears).

I actually looked up some old talent calcs to try and remember what we lost.

Bears lost:
5% crit on lacerate (woo....)
6% magic reduction from Pers.
Some free talent points for utility, e.g. Infected wounds (many of us still had to take it if we were the only tank anyway, which then took away FFF applying multiple stacks).

What we were missing relative to a full cat spec:

Rip extension from mangle/shred
Primal Madness (20 temporary energy during TF/Berserk)
Some crit chance on ravage when target's above 80% health.
Some cat survival/utility talents (20% healing taken in cat form, free talent for pers/interrupt/something).

All in all, it was really minor differences. The big one is not being able to extend rip, but even that wasn't a huge deal (particularly if you were one of the real tanks, since you weren't in cat for too long most of the time, and if you were, rip was refreshed by FB at 60% health or lower anyway ). You really were almost completely set as a bear, and only missing a few things as kitty.

Based on memory, so don't expect them to be perfectly accurate, but some examples of talent trees (assuming you had no specific need for interrupts/Attack speed slow)
Cat: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,1,9,0
Bear: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,0,3,5
BearCat: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,0,5,9 Could also opt out of pulverize if you really weren't tanking often.

What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.

Because there are quite a few 2H melee DPS specs, but no sword and board DPS specs.

At least, that's probably why DKs didn't get the DPS spec added.

[nyc81991]

Because there are quite a few 2H melee DPS specs, but no sword and board DPS specs.

At least, that's probably why DKs didn't get the DPS spec added.

I'm not against Gladiator Stance, I just think that Blood Dk's should have a priority for something like that. A lot of people played Blood dps in Wotlk and had it forcefully removed. It is something that should be brought back before others get it.

[fangless]

I'm not against Gladiator Stance, I just think that Blood Dk's should have a priority for something like that. A lot of people played Blood dps in Wotlk and had it forcefully removed. It is something that should be brought back before others get it.

Except it was extremely boring, and it's was no more or less engaging than frost.

[Instructor Soki]

Except it was extremely boring, and it's was no more or less engaging than frost.

It doesn't matter whether you think it was "engaging" or not - Blood was played as DPS before. Protection has never been played as DPS.
Blood should get the ability to pick a talent and be DPS over Protection.