Need some advice regarding our tank dps in SoO

[Zantos]

You mean casting Execution Sentence at the right time, or didn't your research uncover that?

Paladin doesn't need execution sentence. I never used it and I soloed it as a paladin. In less gear then your paladin. Gem wise, get rid of the haste / stam ones. He is nearly 1% over hit capped, but as far as I can tell he can't do anything about it. The dps legend cloak may help as well. His trinkets could use some replacing, especially the juggernaut one. That is crap. Paladins do enough healing without needing that.

Now about strat, the only time I ever needed any help was when the saws are gone. I usually saved my dps cds for that phase though. However, he doesn't even seem to be attacking it properly. From what I can see he generated enough Holy power for 4 shields but only used three. That to me is very low. Im no expert on reading those log reports, but he is having some serious down time when he isn't doing much of anything to the shredder. I mean, his top move was holy wrath on the shredder. That just isn't supposed to even be a thing. Holy wrath is not one of our harder hitting abilities. He has to change a lot of things. Mostly cast more spells and certainly cast shield more often.

[Smurfz]

Why are you raiding in the first place with an attitude like that? This is not lfr, wipes are going to happen untill everyone understands their role in the fight. Your tanks will not cope with klaxxi or garrosh if they cannot handle an add with small hp. Listen to the advice given or keep wiping, your choice.

I don't wipe blackfuse. Not much anyhow. I think the last time I did this fight it took 2 wipes to get the kill. But, I had a rdps target and attack the shredder after death from above. Like I said previously I pug Normal all the time. Having an rdps target the shredder saves me the time of waiting wipe after wipe every week for a new tank to figure out how to pull max dps. Furthermore, it isn't the over all HP of the add that makes the fight difficult. Tanks only deal 80 percent dmg on the shredder as well. The only reason people think tanks are supposed to solo it is because they receive a DMG increase from the stacks of the Debuff given by the boss. But this debuff doesn't negate the 80 percent dmg reduction already in effect completely. But, ultimately because I pug all the time I have found ways so that I don't have to wipe 10000 times every week waiting for a new tank to get it down. I can solo the shredder on my paladin. My paladin is quite geared and I have spent enough time on my paladin that I know how to bring as much dmg as possible. I could tell you how I get enough dmg out of my paladin to do it. But, I think it might spawn a number of people making post nay saying my rotation. But, the point is I get enough dps out of my paladin to down the shredder. My monk at 540 with No BiS gear and crap trinkets with a LFR weapon is the character I have problems with. But, that still doesn't change the fact that I will need to Pug a tank and that tank may or may not be able to deliver. So, I just have an rdps target the shredder...and it works. If it were guild thing and it was say only a month after the release after the patch I would understand wipe after wipe. at this point. I only stay with a group for 2 to 4 wipes before either leaving or removing people. 6 months into the patch that's all I have in me.

[dez1216]

Wow, thank you all for the advice. I passed on what was on the first page and then the thread died off a bit so I figured that was that and am surprised to come back and find 2 more pages! A bit of an update for anyone that was interested, after passing on the advice (particularly the prot pally info since at the time there wasn't much DK info) I was informed that the pally will not be bothering to use the info because apparently she'll die if she drops her self healing talents/glyphs/whatever because despite 3 healing it apparently it's a healing issue =/. Our newly recruited monk argued that the dps should swap which worked for them in a flex run so I guess that's their new strat. In response to the issue being tank gear, I don't feel it is. This may be comparing apples to oranges but we had brought in a tank who is a friend from another server to dps one of our runs and he has 2ilvl's over our tanks (which are 555ilvl) and has no issues killing shredders on his own. He plays a warrior, hence the apples to oranges comparison, but was fairly insistent that with their gear it should be a non-issue.

I agree with the posters that say the dps shouldn't NEED to help with the shredders. I understand the sentiment of "just get it down and start progressing" but they aren't planning on just getting a Garrosh normal mode kill and calling it quits, they'd like to do heroics if they make it there in time. I feel everyone on the team should therefore be playing their "A-game" and having 2 tanks (1 of whom is RL) blaming every issue on the dps or healers isn't going to cut it on heroics. To be fair to them, there certainly ARE dps issues, and while I don't see it, there very well could be some kind of healing issue that needs to be looked into as well, but there is also clearly a tanking issue to look at and we won't get far with a "my shit don't stink"attitude. To that end I have sadly left my friends in this guild to join a team that is just starting out in SoO (late I know) but who's self reflective attitudes seem to be a better fit with mine.

Hopefully they take some (or all) of the advice offered in this thread since I would still love to hear that they've succeeded in the future, but it's too frustrating to search out advice and then have it ignored . Thanks again everyone! I will remember this advice for my new team when we make it here if we end up needing it.

[Pandapuncher]

I play a Dk tank. And I always kinda wung the shredders to be honest. A dk should be able to pull like 100k dps. I tank him through crap, then throw a soul reaper on it before it bounces up in the air. That usually does it. Though, honestly ive tanked the shredder and the boss before when I did fuck up. They don't hit that hard

[Deja Thoris]

I was informed that the pally will not be bothering to use the info because apparently she'll die if she drops her self healing talents/glyphs/whatever because despite 3 healing it apparently it's a healing issue =/.

Refer her to this thread so it can be me being the bearer of bad news "She's shit". I have no problem with people being less skilled or accomplished but when good advice is given by people at a higher level and its ignored then the only possible response is the one I gave.

She isn't dropping self healing talents by taking ES, its a tiny bit of burst healing shes losing (big deal) The reason its a "healer problem" at the moment is because the shredders are living long enough to collect their old age pensions and therefore overloading a bazillion times. 9 healers won't fix this, killing the shredders on time will.

Heres my advice to you, if you are happy with your current level of progress then stick around. Myself, I can't abide by such mediocrity, I know what I'd do.

[Littlepinch]

Wow, thank you all for the advice. I passed on what was on the first page and then the thread died off a bit so I figured that was that and am surprised to come back and find 2 more pages! A bit of an update for anyone that was interested, after passing on the advice (particularly the prot pally info since at the time there wasn't much DK info) I was informed that the pally will not be bothering to use the info because apparently she'll die if she drops her self healing talents/glyphs/whatever because despite 3 healing it apparently it's a healing issue =/. Our newly recruited monk argued that the dps should swap which worked for them in a flex run so I guess that's their new strat. In response to the issue being tank gear, I don't feel it is. This may be comparing apples to oranges but we had brought in a tank who is a friend from another server to dps one of our runs and he has 2ilvl's over our tanks (which are 555ilvl) and has no issues killing shredders on his own. He plays a warrior, hence the apples to oranges comparison, but was fairly insistent that with their gear it should be a non-issue.

I agree with the posters that say the dps shouldn't NEED to help with the shredders. I understand the sentiment of "just get it down and start progressing" but they aren't planning on just getting a Garrosh normal mode kill and calling it quits, they'd like to do heroics if they make it there in time. I feel everyone on the team should therefore be playing their "A-game" and having 2 tanks (1 of whom is RL) blaming every issue on the dps or healers isn't going to cut it on heroics. To be fair to them, there certainly ARE dps issues, and while I don't see it, there very well could be some kind of healing issue that needs to be looked into as well, but there is also clearly a tanking issue to look at and we won't get far with a "my shit don't stink"attitude. To that end I have sadly left my friends in this guild to join a team that is just starting out in SoO (late I know) but who's self reflective attitudes seem to be a better fit with mine.

Hopefully they take some (or all) of the advice offered in this thread since I would still love to hear that they've succeeded in the future, but it's too frustrating to search out advice and then have it ignored . Thanks again everyone! I will remember this advice for my new team when we make it here if we end up needing it.

She's right, it is a healing issue lol ( you are using 3 ) - Tell your RL to stop being to proud to change and drop 1 healer and pick up a dps

The tell her to fix her own stuff before blaming others.

[dez1216]

She's right, it is a healing issue lol ( you are using 3 ) - Tell your RL to stop being to proud to change and drop 1 healer and pick up a dps

The tell her to fix her own stuff before blaming others.

Haha! BELIEVE ME myself and the hpally had been saying to switch to 2 healing for weeks :P 566ilvl and 555ilvl healers should not need a 3rd and if we did THEN it would be a healing issue. Or like the guy above you said, the shredders were collecting old age checks, that's kind of hard to heal through :P

[LaplaceNoMa]

What Smurfz is doing in this thread is a really bad tendention that really separates the good guilds (not saying most top guilds, just 'good', those that didn't have any serious problems getting to 9-11 heroics). The tendention is basically 'if there is a mechanic requiring one player's effort and could be completed with his efforts alone, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't be helped if he's struggling'.

No. He shouldn't. If a mage/SP can't get to 25 stacks on Alysrazor while in air, it's their problem and no one can fix it for them. If a SP can't tank the full crystal on Baelroc because he can't time his spells correctly, it doesn't mean that the guild should ditch the 'SP soaks a full crystal strategy'. If a guild has a ilvl570 hunter who can't solo 1/4/7 conveyors on heroic blackfuse, it doesn't mean that someone else should be paired with hunter. If a tank can't do what's SUPPOSED to be doable with his efforts alone, it's just this tank's problem.

It's one thing to ask a boomkin or a shadow priest to use a major healing cooldown during fight; but what you, Smurfz, is suggesting, is basically 'if the healers can't heal the fight even though they overgear it, shadow priest or boomkin should heal like half of the fight'.

You keep using that word, but here's where it really fits. It's RETARDED. Tanks nowadays can literally do nothing on most of the fights. Blackfuse is probably one of the only MoP fights that lets the tanks keep themselves from falling asleep.

It feels like lazy welfare people who shout MUH OPPRESHUN as soon as they have to do something other than dicking around.

[kamuimac]

What Smurfz is doing in this thread is a really bad tendention that really separates the good guilds (not saying most top guilds, just 'good', those that didn't have any serious problems getting to 9-11 heroics). The tendention is basically 'if there is a mechanic requiring one player's effort and could be completed with his efforts alone, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't be helped if he's struggling'.

.

well what it shows really is that most of raiders in wow lack the ability to "improvise" when something is not going exackly like the strategy made and released by top hc raiders to the public which might work for many hc guilds but doesnt nessesary has to work for guilds with more "casual" approach - and what they lack in performance they have to make up in improvizing when thing doesnt go exackly like they are descirbed - it also shows why Hc raid guidls have so much trouble with recruiting - and will only have more such troubles - there is only so many capable players out there and with the mythic raiding their numbers will only decrease much more - if the evaluation of players will be going in this direction in few tiers u may find yourself i place where u simply have noone to recruit - cause nobody will be teaching new players how to behave and play really good casue eveyrbody will just depend on pouching from weaker progressed guilds and there is limited numebr of those which will be 50%+ less with the release of patch 6.0 and inevitable fall of many guilds.

just like atm 25 man guilds which went with the wave of "merge for WoD" january/february wave are loosing their better progressed players unless they were already on 13,14/14 Hc after merge not back to stuck on thok like they were in 10 man i dont mind thx to this we have plenty of 575+ recruits for siegegecrafter who are to pissed of on incompetence of new recruits in their merged 25 when htey have to reprogress harder bosses i dont doubt there many of projeckts which worked very well but it was people who either already finished tier or were near to finishing it in begining of year - i seriusly doubt many of those which were 10/14 hc and less and merged have much chance to survive summer if 6.0 dont land by then with them loosing better players who are leaving to guilds which made 10 man progress and are now on paragons/garosh while they were only farming gear in 25 man with no real progress for few months.

again i dont doubt many of those projckt may succed eventually - but atm well im gratefull those for gearing up my potential recruits for paragons and garosh hc

[Simmias]

Wow, thank you all for the advice. I passed on what was on the first page and then the thread died off a bit so I figured that was that and am surprised to come back and find 2 more pages! A bit of an update for anyone that was interested, after passing on the advice (particularly the prot pally info since at the time there wasn't much DK info) I was informed that the pally will not be bothering to use the info because apparently she'll die if she drops her self healing talents/glyphs/whatever because despite 3 healing it apparently it's a healing issue =/. Our newly recruited monk argued that the dps should swap which worked for them in a flex run so I guess that's their new strat. In response to the issue being tank gear, I don't feel it is. This may be comparing apples to oranges but we had brought in a tank who is a friend from another server to dps one of our runs and he has 2ilvl's over our tanks (which are 555ilvl) and has no issues killing shredders on his own. He plays a warrior, hence the apples to oranges comparison, but was fairly insistent that with their gear it should be a non-issue.

I agree with the posters that say the dps shouldn't NEED to help with the shredders. I understand the sentiment of "just get it down and start progressing" but they aren't planning on just getting a Garrosh normal mode kill and calling it quits, they'd like to do heroics if they make it there in time. I feel everyone on the team should therefore be playing their "A-game" and having 2 tanks (1 of whom is RL) blaming every issue on the dps or healers isn't going to cut it on heroics. To be fair to them, there certainly ARE dps issues, and while I don't see it, there very well could be some kind of healing issue that needs to be looked into as well, but there is also clearly a tanking issue to look at and we won't get far with a "my shit don't stink"attitude. To that end I have sadly left my friends in this guild to join a team that is just starting out in SoO (late I know) but who's self reflective attitudes seem to be a better fit with mine.

Hopefully they take some (or all) of the advice offered in this thread since I would still love to hear that they've succeeded in the future, but it's too frustrating to search out advice and then have it ignored . Thanks again everyone! I will remember this advice for my new team when we make it here if we end up needing it.

May I suggest leaving that guild and moving to one where the guild leader isn't a complete and utter idiot?

[Deleted]

Paladin doesn't need execution sentence. I never used it and I soloed it as a paladin. In less gear then your paladin. Gem wise, get rid of the haste / stam ones. He is nearly 1% over hit capped, but as far as I can tell he can't do anything about it. The dps legend cloak may help as well. His trinkets could use some replacing, especially the juggernaut one. That is crap. Paladins do enough healing without needing that.

Now about strat, the only time I ever needed any help was when the saws are gone. I usually saved my dps cds for that phase though. However, he doesn't even seem to be attacking it properly. From what I can see he generated enough Holy power for 4 shields but only used three. That to me is very low. Im no expert on reading those log reports, but he is having some serious down time when he isn't doing much of anything to the shredder. I mean, his top move was holy wrath on the shredder. That just isn't supposed to even be a thing. Holy wrath is not one of our harder hitting abilities. He has to change a lot of things. Mostly cast more spells and certainly cast shield more often.

Holy Wrath is pretty much one of our hardest hitting abilities - specially glyphed below 20% (ie the last burn part on a shredder)

[Miko]

What Smurfz is doing in this thread is a really bad tendention that really separates the good guilds (not saying most top guilds, just 'good', those that didn't have any serious problems getting to 9-11 heroics). The tendention is basically 'if there is a mechanic requiring one player's effort and could be completed with his efforts alone, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't be helped if he's struggling'.

No. He shouldn't. If a mage/SP can't get to 25 stacks on Alysrazor while in air, it's their problem and no one can fix it for them. If a SP can't tank the full crystal on Baelroc because he can't time his spells correctly, it doesn't mean that the guild should ditch the 'SP soaks a full crystal strategy'. If a guild has a ilvl570 hunter who can't solo 1/4/7 conveyors on heroic blackfuse, it doesn't mean that someone else should be paired with hunter. If a tank can't do what's SUPPOSED to be doable with his efforts alone, it's just this tank's problem.

It's one thing to ask a boomkin or a shadow priest to use a major healing cooldown during fight; but what you, Smurfz, is suggesting, is basically 'if the healers can't heal the fight even though they overgear it, shadow priest or boomkin should heal like half of the fight'.

You keep using that word, but here's where it really fits. It's RETARDED. Tanks nowadays can literally do nothing on most of the fights. Blackfuse is probably one of the only MoP fights that lets the tanks keep themselves from falling asleep.

It feels like lazy welfare people who shout MUH OPPRESHUN as soon as they have to do something other than dicking around.

When I tank this fight I have never had trouble with shredders. When I dps this fight our tank used to struggle until he asked a lock to help. We have never managed to hit the enrage timer. These are good friends of mine. I dont suppose any of us are pro players, nor care about being one. We manage to have fun raids downing bosses getting gear. I dont think doing fights differently from the way they are supposed to be done. How many fights do we one tank or two heal to help dps issues. My thoughts are using whatever works for your raid, not someone elses. I mean you dont have to mimic everyone, the object is to kill a boss and have fun.

[Simmias]

it's not about doing the fight differently, It's about their tank being shit and blaming the healers because they do not know how to kill an add, even with a massive damage buff. Getting someone to help a bad tank just causes problems in the long run.

[Notdev]

I just did Seigecrafter for the first time on my 543 Prot Paladin.. killing the shredder involved me hitting buttons doing nothing in particular, no special glyphs or talents, nothing.... just hitting my buttons. Was with a 530 weapon too.

[britishbubba]

I just did Seigecrafter for the first time on my 543 Prot Paladin.. killing the shredder involved me hitting buttons doing nothing in particular, no special glyphs or talents, nothing.... just hitting my buttons. Was with a 530 weapon too.

It's amazing what happens when people play their class properly isn't it?

[Notdev]

It's amazing what happens when people play their class properly isn't it?

Pretty much... would like to add that it was normal, and I didn't use execution sentence.

If we had wiped I probably would have switched to focused shield and execution sentence.... but we didn't.