The Backstab Situation

[Wow]

Backstab was used in wotlk and dance came in cata iirc... not that far off.

Dance also came out in wotlk.

[Sesshou]

Dance also came out in wotlk.

Ah, my bad. I didn't touch sub that whole expansion. So, my point is even better. So backstab is even further irrelevant as far as the most iconic sub abilities... it was hemo and then shadow dance. I can't think of a single point in time that backstab has ever been the spec defining ability for sub.

What really happened, and I guess newer players just don't realize it... is that backstab is the red-headed step child of rogues, but blizzard for some reason thinks it is super important to keep around so they shoehorned it into a place where it didn't fit. And yet again, they feel that having an ability named "backstab" in the rogue spell book is so important, they shoehorned a positional requirement attack into a game that clearly no longer has a place for positional attacks... or they wouldn't have removed it from ferals and ambush.

If backstab is iconic to anything, its combat (literally the combat icon is backstab) or maybe assassination since it was clearly tied enough to assassination for the assassination tree to contain backstab talents.

[dak1]

What really happened, and I guess newer players just don't realize it... is that backstab is the red-headed step child of rogues, but blizzard for some reason thinks it is super important to keep around so they shoehorned it into a place where it didn't fit. And yet again, they feel that having an ability named "backstab" in the rogue spell book is so important, they shoehorned a positional requirement attack into a game that clearly no longer has a place for positional attacks... or they wouldn't have removed it from ferals and ambush.

Pretty much this. (and Backstab has never even been available to Combat, despite the icon).

[shadowboy]

Pretty much this. (and Backstab has never even been available to Combat, despite the icon).

Combat daggers in vanilla would like a word. Unless you mean since cata, in which case, yeah.

[dak1]

Combat daggers in vanilla would like a word. Unless you mean since cata, in which case, yeah.

I'm vaguely aware some people tried a main hand dagger in Combat spec, although I don't recall it ever being truly competitive in PvE (Sword Spec was best) or PvP (Mace or Sword Spec). And even then, I think you still used a sword in your OH.

I played Combat all Vanilla after I hit 60 (and got a Krol Blade) and pretty much exclusively used swords. Daggers were usually used by Assassination Rogues.

[mauserr]

Jesus, what's up with all these people complaining about losening positional requirements for it? I recently saw a LFR hero(completed it only once, mind you) complain about it too. Needless to say I actually doubt he even knew how to play his spec in the first place.

You should be god damn happy that your spec is getting better and better...

[Deleted]

So I listen to Convert to Raid Podacasts when doing content where you can shut your brain off like leveling an alt or something, and they did an interview with Celestalon and Zarhym this week and when talking about rogues they came across backstab and talked about why the positional requirement was being removed, however, they mentioned in the patchnotes that they were only being relaxed. Did I miss something or did they just make a mistake while reviewing backstab on the show?

Link to the vid: http://youtu.be/UOlOB8lvYAU?t=1h33m17s

Also they were talking about how they removed rupture from combat for better spec identity and the lack of rogue poisons.

[Wow]

Jesus, what's up with all these people complaining about losening positional requirements for it? I recently saw a LFR hero(completed it only once, mind you) complain about it too. Needless to say I actually doubt he even knew how to play his spec in the first place.

You should be god damn happy that your spec is getting better and better...

I think the main issue here is first it was claimed that all positionals were to be removed https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...05339022835712

Second is the fact they they didn't just loosen the requirements for all instead what they did was remove all others from the game and leave 1 in place.

All that together will annoy almost any one that likes to play that 1 spec as it got screwed for no reason at all and they removed it from everything else.

[mauserr]

I think the main issue here is first it was claimed that all positionals were to be removed https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...05339022835712

Second is the fact they they didn't just loosen the requirements for all instead what they did was remove all others from the game and leave 1 in place.

All that together will annoy almost any one that likes to play that 1 spec as it got screwed for no reason at all and they removed it from everything else.

I wouldn't call that screwing the spec. It's an improvement which will make the spec more viable for all kinds of fights, not just those where you can 24/7 sit on the boss' ass.

[SinAscendant]

I think the main issue here is first it was claimed that all positionals were to be removed https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...05339022835712

Second is the fact they they didn't just loosen the requirements for all instead what they did was remove all others from the game and leave 1 in place.

All that together will annoy almost any one that likes to play that 1 spec as it got screwed for no reason at all and they removed it from everything else.

You realize that Sub is mainly a PvP spec and they still have to balance around PvP as well...?

If they let you use Backstab from in front, they'd have to nerf the damage so that it wouldn't be broken in PvP. Which would you prefer?

Ambush can have its requirement removed because you have to be in stealth anyway and it isn't as big of a deal.

[Artorius]

Wotlk Sub, Arms, Frost (mage) and maybe discipline were mainly pvp specs, we don't have this kind of thing anymore....

[Brianjosel]

Wotlk Sub, Arms, Frost (mage) and maybe discipline were mainly pvp specs, we don't have this kind of thing anymore....

Discipline was used pretty heavily in PvE. It was practically mandatory for heroic LK.

You can put Beast Mastery on the list of PvP spec. Arms got some use in PvE in Ulduar. As far as I am aware, BM only briefly was on the PvE scene in early Naxx.

[shadowboy]

You realize that Sub is mainly a PvP spec and they still have to balance around PvP as well...?

If they let you use Backstab from in front, they'd have to nerf the damage so that it wouldn't be broken in PvP. Which would you prefer?

Ambush can have its requirement removed because you have to be in stealth anyway and it isn't as big of a deal.

Backstab currently is less damage than hemo once you include hemo's dot damage. The DoT is stacking in WoD which means you'll get full damage from hemo even if you spam it (assuming they don't rebalance hemo vs backstab). Either way, Backstab hasn't been a hard hitting ability since cata.

[dak1]

You realize that Sub is mainly a PvP spec and they still have to balance around PvP as well...?

If they let you use Backstab from in front, they'd have to nerf the damage so that it wouldn't be broken in PvP. Which would you prefer?

Ambush can have its requirement removed because you have to be in stealth anyway and it isn't as big of a deal.

This argument makes absolutely no sense. Rogues don't even make an attempt to do comparable sustained damage in competitive play. Rogues will be the lowest damage output in most arena and RBG matches. Our threat only comes when dancing, which is using Ambush, or mini-dances, which also use Ambush.

Even in PvE, when you're sitting on a target non-stop, Subt's damage often comes from 1) Melee, 2) Eviscerate, 3) Ambush, and then 4) Backstab. And in PvP, it's even more in favor of Ambush, since you're constantly going for restealths.

And Shred, the Backstab clone for Feral Druids, had its positional requirement completely removed, and I don't see anybody lowering their damage.

Backstab still has a positional requirement because of its name only, full stop. If you think otherwise, then please explain Shred.

[Wow]

You realize that Sub is mainly a PvP spec and they still have to balance around PvP as well...?

If they let you use Backstab from in front, they'd have to nerf the damage so that it wouldn't be broken in PvP. Which would you prefer?

Ambush can have its requirement removed because you have to be in stealth anyway and it isn't as big of a deal.

Its funny you said that like you did. As backstab even with fw up isn't that good in pvp and without fw is a complete joke dmg. Ambush on the other hand is ok dmg and is whats used in dance sub's main dmg source in pvp. Pretty much all the other melee standard abilities hit harder than backstab and have no positional the fact that you'd try to use this argument shows you clearly don't play a rogue or if you do you don't seem to know anything about it.

[Warstar]

Btw just to clarify using backstab (40 energy) to kill a 5hp totem is more efficient to use hemo (35 energy) so if you're using a higher energy cost ability for a 5hp totem then yes you're doing it wrong. Duh killing totems is good and destroying totems in pvp is a great way to screw over a shaman. But complaining that you can't inefficiently-wrong-move-anyways backstab a totem means that yes: you're doing it wrong.

[Wow]

Btw just to clarify using backstab (40 energy) to kill a 5hp totem is more efficient to use hemo (35 energy) so if you're using a higher energy cost ability for a 5hp totem then yes you're doing it wrong.

Two things on this hemo is 30 energy and backstab is 35 and if you're killing a 5hp anything why are wasting any energy on it with rogues attack speed?

[ymirsson]

I'm vaguely aware some people tried a main hand dagger in Combat spec, although I don't recall it ever being truly competitive in PvE (Sword Spec was best) or PvP (Mace or Sword Spec). And even then, I think you still used a sword in your OH.

I played Combat all Vanilla after I hit 60 (and got a Krol Blade) and pretty much exclusively used swords. Daggers were usually used by Assassination Rogues.

In vanilla PvE, combat daggers was the way to go until you got the pine cone of destruction in AQ.
And i won't complain of positionals anymore when i get my crit chance bonus back. Stabbing in the back should feel good (for me), not do less damage then a filler spell from any cloth wearing sissypants in the game.

[Sesshou]

I wouldn't call that screwing the spec. It's an improvement which will make the spec more viable for all kinds of fights, not just those where you can 24/7 sit on the boss' ass.

It is screwing the spec because it originally was not a positional attack dependent spec. Forcing it into one is definitely screwing it over.

The only way positional attacks can possibly be justified is if they reward you something extra over non positional attacks either through secondary benefits or flat out higher dps when you can actually use them. With no benefits and dps balanced on the assumption you can backstab all the time, making sub the only spec that has to deal with this is absurd.

@ymirsson
Pretty sure TF beat daggers way before aq40.

[ymirsson]

That's a color issue, i'm sure.