Could an Atheist Democrat ever win the Presidency of the USA?

[BLCalliente]

You spout off another stereotype again and then wonder what the hell you're doing?

You firstly assume every religion is Catholic, I have no idea why. And secondly you assume every single action is done because of fear of some potential after death doom.

Tell me exactly, Was Saint Francis going around the world doing all those good deeds because he was afraid of some Divine punishment? Was he driven by greed of his own soul?

Would Saint Francis been a better man if he was an Atheist? You try to talk about moral choices and how mature you are than religious people yet your assuming they're all crazy folk and using petty minded bigotry just like you assume they do.

THAT is why I call you a 12 year old.

I don't know why Saint Francis did what he did, and neither do you. In answer to your question, yes he would have been a demonstrably better man if he did all those good things with no consideration for whether there was a god or not -- because he wouldn't have been operating in a reward/punishment scenario. What I do know is that it's very probable that the fear of being tortured for eternity influenced his decision making process, as well as the desire to be rewarded with eternal life.

Surely you can see the difference between doing a good deed for the sake of it's goodness vs. doing a good deed for the sake of its goodness AND to avoid eternal torture AND to receive the reward of eternal life.

You still haven't answered my question.

[Deleted]

Ethical nihilism is an ethical stance and an appropriate answer to "Where do you get your morals from?"


I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to insult anyone. It's a simple fact of human reasoning that we're not as rational as we like to believe.

Don't try to wax your pathetic Philosophical deadpan at me. You can't draw Morals from nihilism, it's very design is the absence of Philosophical ideas. You answer my question with a double negative.

There is no such thing as Ethical Nihilism, anything you spout is merely some Americanized stupidty of misunderstanding what Nihilism is just like everyone misunderstand the phrase "God is Dead, and we killed him."

[Fexus]

He's your typical Internet Anti-theist. Do you really think he knows anything about religion apart from some people are nasty under it!

For someone that condemns assumptions and stereotyping this is rather ironic.

[Deleted]

I don't know why Saint Francis did what he did, and neither do you. In answer to your question, yes he would have been a demonstrably better man if he did all those good things with no consideration for whether there was a god or not -- because he wouldn't have been operating in a reward/punishment scenario. What I do know is that it's very probable that the fear of being tortured for eternity influenced his decision making process, as well as the desire to be rewarded with eternal life.

Surely you can see the difference between doing a good deed for the sake of it's goodness vs. doing a good deed for the sake of its goodness AND the threat of eternal torture and a reward of eternal life.





Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Let's be honest here fedoracore, you have no idea who Saint Francis is do you?

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For someone that condemns assumptions and stereotyping this is rather ironic.

Not only do you misuse the word Irony, you fail is grasp the concept that applying stereotypes and accusing stereotypes are not the same thing.

[Fexus]

Don't try to wax your pathetic Philosophical deadpan at me. You can't draw Morals from nihilism, it's very design is the absence of Philosophical ideas. You answer my question with a double negative.

Nihilism is a legitimate (although in my opinion, incorrect) ethical understanding. If I asked you what angels looked like, saying you don't believe in angels is a complete answer.

There is no such thing as Ethical Nihilism, anything you spout is merely some Americanized stupidty of misunderstanding what Nihilism is just like everyone misunderstand the phrase "God is Dead, and we killed him."

Well ethical nihilism is an idea, and by merely mentioning its name you have proven its existence. Also, your boorishness does your argument (or lack, thereof) no service.

[Tastyfish]

Don't try to wax your pathetic Philosophical deadpan at me. You can't draw Morals from nihilism, it's very design is the absence of Philosophical ideas. You answer my question with a double negative.

Maybe you should wiki Nihilism before getting all dramatic.

[Chelly]

because he wouldn't have been operating in a reward/punishment scenario.

Guess why people do good things at all. We always get rewarded by feeling good.

[BLCalliente]

You do realize A applies to religious people too, right?

No it doesn't. Obviously I'm talking about the Abrahamic religions here, because the reward/punishment model is so elegant.

If you believe in god, and your god promises a reward for "good" behavior and a punishment for "bad" behavior, you'd have to be a very poor decision maker not to take that into consideration. Assuming you REALLY believe in this god, you also believe that he's not a liar.

[Chelly]

No it doesn't. Obviously I'm talking about the Abrahamic religions here, because the reward/punishment model is so elegant.

If you believe in god, and your god promises a reward for "good" behavior and a punishment for "bad" behavior, you'd have to be a very poor decision maker not to take that into consideration. Assuming you REALLY believe in this god, you also believe that he's not a liar.

You're assuming every religious person thinks and behaves in the same way.

[Tastyfish]

If you believe in god, and your god promises a reward for "good" behavior and a punishment for "bad" behavior, you'd have to be a very poor decision maker not to take that into consideration. Assuming you REALLY believe in this god, you also believe that he's not a liar.

Every religion justifies bad behavior for the sake of futhering the goals of it's people. They all have moral and ethical absolution for evil shit.

[Fexus]

You do realize A applies to religious people too, right?

Absolutely it does, but they're then performing a good action for reasons that have nothing to do with religion. If a religious person stops being religious, they almost certainly won't immediately believe murder, theft, and rape are acceptable. This just proves that morality is better derived via secular reasoning, not religious dogma.

Guess why people do good things at all. We always get rewarded by feeling good.

While that is true in part, people are also very capable of empathy. This very powerfully causes humans to treat those in their abstractly constructed community with decency and sympathy, regardless of reward and sometimes accompanied by sacrifice.

[Endus]

You're assuming every religious person thinks and behaves in the same way.

It's an argument against the "morality derives from religion/God" falsehood.

If you think morality wouldn't/couldn't exist without religion or God, then what you're saying, explicitly, is that it is only the fear of torment or desire for reward that defines your moral code; you avoid murder not because it's "wrong", but because God said he'd hurt you if you did it. If you really, legitimately think this, what you're describing is essentially sociopathy.

If you can grasp that it's wrong in and of itself, with or without God telling you so (and I would say the majority of religious types really do feel this way), then you're making the case that morality is not inherently religious in derivation; that there are clear moral concepts that exist beyond the scope of faith, and that faith is fundamentally unnecessary when it comes to being moral.

[BLCalliente]

Let's be honest here fedoracore, you have no idea who Saint Francis is do you?

Boohoo, you called me a name on the internet. Let's be really honest. From the way you've been posting, it sounds like you might be a little mad. All these mean internet people just don't get what you're saying. I understand.

[Fexus]

Why do you say that? It's not particularly useful for establishing social order, but it does seem to be the most likely candidate for that which is true.

From my perspective it's a semantic distinction that need not be made. While I would agree that if you applied a reductionist argument to ethics you will eventually reach nihilism, but I do not believe that is necessary or worthwhile to do that. We are intelligent, conscious beings capable of pleasure and suffering both mildly and to the extreme. To ignore the (incoming appeal to the obvious) fact that every living being desires pleasure and hates suffering in order to say, "nothing really matters anyway," is a discussion that is pragmatically useless in ethics.

[Deleted]

On a more lighter note.



Cracks me up every time.

[Fexus]

On a more lighter note.

snip

Cracks me up every time.

I'm not a huge fan of Bill Maher, but he definitely has his moments. I laugh every time seeing the senator laughingly say, "you don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate," and then his smile disappears when he realizes he said something really, really stupid.

[Deleted]

Is it really such a big deal in the states? I'm not trying to sound patronising or jingoistic it's just hard for me imagine someone hating me just because I'm an atheist.

[Fexus]

Is it really such a big deal in the states? I'm not trying to sound patronising or jingoistic it's just hard for me imagine someone hating me just because I'm an atheist.

Yes, it is a big deal in the US.

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/2011...-by-believers/

[Blur4stuff]

atheists are one of the least liked groups in the usa. christians here trust muslims more than atheists. who they would rather their kid marry is even more hilarious:

UofM study:

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

as an atheist i can understand why. the conversations i've had with religious people in person explain everything. they are extremely threatened when faced with something they know doesn't add up. they get scared and angry. so much that it overrides their distrust of muslims and black people.

[Deleted]

I'm not a huge fan of Bill Maher, but he definitely has his moments. I laugh every time seeing the senator laughingly say, "you don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate," and then his smile disappears when he realizes he said something really, really stupid.

Well besides this movie I know very little about him, apart from a few youtube vids. But this movie is beyond hilarious. The Theme Park, hahahahahhaha.

The best part about the senator is his laugh after he says the IQ thing.