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  1. #21
    If you read the walls of blue text that blizz has posted over past week or so you will see how they talk about shadow. Something along the lines of they are behind slightly on single target but are one of the strongest multi dotters. So on multi target fights ( which with SoO is quite a bit) they do pretty well.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    If you read the walls of blue text that blizz has posted over past week or so you will see how they talk about shadow. Something along the lines of they are behind slightly on single target but are one of the strongest multi dotters. So on multi target fights ( which with SoO is quite a bit) they do pretty well.
    Thing is , it's the other way around... We're slightly better than average on multi dots... You could say we're among the top speccs... Though mages and locks are still stronger and that's like 4 speccs already :P If the targets are clumped also then melee come into play too so it's fucked :P
    And our ST isn't just slightly behind...

    But yeh most of SoO have been fights that Spriests can perform somewhat idd :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    We're driving lemon VWs while everyone else is driving Cadillacs. Warlocks are riding in a limo.
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  3. #23
    Deleted
    I think we should collect the tears we cry and sell them to locks where they can be used as energy Drinks for maximum uber leet deeps.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    If you read the walls of blue text that blizz has posted over past week or so you will see how they talk about shadow. Something along the lines of they are behind slightly on single target but are one of the strongest multi dotters. So on multi target fights ( which with SoO is quite a bit) they do pretty well.
    That's basically Blizzard giving Shadow Priests the big middle finger. "it's okay that you don't do adequate single target dps because you can multi-dot well". As Preach put it, we are only guaranteed in an encounter that there will be a boss, we cannot guarantee that there will be multi-dot scenarios for every fight.

  5. #25
    Plus we're the worst among the multidotting specs.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    October 15 2012

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Shadow priest single target DPS seems very low. I've been sat on heroic Feng because of this. Anything to help would be great.
    Shadow single target DPS is fine. AE might be low.
    Response: Mind Sear buffed by 25%. Then came Heart of Fear...

    The recent Celestalon tweet where we got more DPS in compensation for losing our off healing also makes sense; we got balanced around our off healing and our single target is designed to be low because in Cata we were quite a bit among the FOTM.

  7. #27
    Even if the statistical data presented isn't "optimal" or "chosen wisely", it's still real world data we can account for to some extent.

    So, in this datasheet, shadow priests are doing ROUGHLY 325k DPS. We see DPS-speccs doing BELOW 300k DPS and DPS-speccs which do ~350k DPS. In layman's terms, shadow priest sits right in the middle. He got some utility, he got weak points, he got strong points... maybe SoO isn't optimal for shadows, but you know what we call things which are nearly perfectly in the middle? BALANCED!

    I would say shadow is perfectly fine, those DPS-speccs below 315k need a slight buff and those above 335k need a slight nerf. Well, except those beyond 350k DPS - they are in need of a nerfbat. I won't argue why arcane mages and affli locks seem to be THAT broken regarding this data sheet. But as i said beforehand, they're above 350k, so they need a nerfbat anyway.

    If things would be adjusted the way I proposed, differencies in raw DPS would be around 15k DPS or less, which amount to staggering less than 5% of overall DPS done.
    Let's be blunt: 99% of the players playing this game got more serious issues in order to fix their DPS. Latency, low FPS, precasting, unnecessary movement... such things amount to way more than "less than 5%".

    Just my thoughts. And, at last, for overall raid progress: those who are still doing progress in SoO - which is fine, everyone and every playstyle got their own pace and their own rightful place in this game - won't be concerned if their damage would be buffed by "less than 5%". They won't down Garrosh HC instantly. And for all of us: WoD is coming, it would be in all of our interest that Blizzard uses their manpower to get 6.0 and the following expansion balanced instead of investing time to "fix" this expansion.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TenDance View Post
    Even if the statistical data presented isn't "optimal" or "chosen wisely", it's still real world data we can account for to some extent.
    We can't because the data is too broad / narrow. So instead of saying "this data can be accounted for to some extent" we have to put it into perspective because OP failed to do so. Its like someone pointing to Russia saying "look, there is nuclear waste somewhere over there." Be specific.

    When people discuss Shadow DPS they think about PvP, 10, 25, Normal, Heroic, Flex, LFR. They speak about casual to hardcore players, different quality of players. Some talk about progress, some about farm. They take padding into account or they just stare blind at DPS meter. OP narrowed it down to 25 Heroic. OK, fair enough.

    Then he looked at the 60% percentile passes which is questionable (only looking on the top parses is also incredibly dumb because of "padding" and "stars aligned procs"). Lets take an example, the outlier Affliction which OP highlights. According to this data presented by OP, Affliction is amazing, it should actually be nerfed quite a bit to be put in line with the other classes! Well I can tell you Affliction is not amazing; it is only amazing because Affliction does insane burst on pull and the fights are quick one shots while overgearing the content with nobody or barely anyone dying. As soon as the fights last longer (progress, or your guild is meh), Destruction will start gaining. Plus, sometimes Destruction provides different utility. OP has no knowledge about any of this or else he would neither use his data nor point out "Warlock" in red in his graph near Affliction plot.

    Next mistake he makes is he looks at the whole expansion and you can't see shit on the graph because there is too many plots, too zoomed out. He merged 3 patches. Its much better to discuss each patch individually because it allows you to go more into depth and pinpoint problems in a specific patch. It also makes the discussion clearer because pure's best specs change quite a bit (Warlock for example as someone pointed out played Demonology with UVLS in ToT).

    The other mistake is that he merges all the fights from the whole instance together. Well I'll tell you a secret. I do not give a flying fuck if some dude is 500k or 600k on a Protectors farm kill. I just want to kill the boss quickly without wiping because Rook is dying while the other are 30%. Immerseus is another example. Any mindless duck can AoE there. Logs do not take into account useless padding or people going for the kill instead. As far as I am concerned only the last 3 fights of SoO matter because that is where the content became challenging and I don't need to look on Raidbots or some website to know how Shadow is doing there. Siegecrafter: middle of the pack. Shit single target and clunky on movement. Good cleave, utility-wise there are other rDPS classes who do much better (Elemental for example our rock bottom competitor does better cleave and provides also utility with 2 off healing CDs). Klaxxi: bottom (you can go for DI pad pad lal but its meanigless which is another example of where DPS says fuck all) however some decent utility due to Spectral Guise and Leap of Faith. Garrosh you need a little bit cleave and multidot but its mostly a single target fight and that is where we are rock bottom. If you got a Warlock and Shadow Priest of equal quality with equal gear you'd be a fool to take the Shadow instead of the Warlock and the same is true for the other 2 fights. In fact if you got a mediocre Rogue or Feral and you got enough to bait (assuming you would force your Shadow to bait, which sucks for Shadow's DPS) why not bring them instead? This is what Lei Shen and Garrosh have in common: they require a X amount of ranged / healers and the rest could in theory be melee. For Lei Shen its a Ball Lightning team and for Garrosh its a Desecrated Weapon team. Both require 7 people, if I remember correct we always used 8 for Ball Lightning though. Long story short, you don't need too many ranged for these fights and you don't need a lot of AoE or multidot either so why not bring your best ranged and bench the bad and mediocre ones for some melee DPS? Feral and Rogue can also soak and provide CDs as well. Warrior are also amazing, due to banners and Rallying Cry.

    Last but not least a lot of guilds have abandoned WoL and switched to better alternatives which are actively maintained and developed.
    Last edited by mmoc41a7fbf474; 2014-04-16 at 11:47 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Last but not least a lot of guilds have abandoned WoL and switched to better alternatives which are actively maintained and developed.
    WarcraftLogs

  10. #30
    Why is balance druid so low on the list? They are like top tier dps lol...

  11. #31
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    It got too good in PvP.

    I played Cata up to 4.2 in PvP as shadow, as a full healer.

    I died twice, ever.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Why is balance druid so low on the list? They are like top tier dps lol...
    High skill cap.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Primernova View Post
    It got too good in PvP.

    I played Cata up to 4.2 in PvP as shadow, as a full healer.

    I died twice, ever.
    I honestly don't know what to say to that... Gg?

    SP were lacking the whole xpack, if you believe you were as valuable as an equally skilled warlock or mage to your raid progress, well think again. Sure on some fights you brought some utility, but the main job a damage dealer is suppose to do is deal damage! Who knew? Doing some cheap healing doesn't make up a 20% damage difference.

    Anyways I will be bitching a lot during beta, I don't want a repeat of this horrible Xpack. And yes beta will be the time to whine, not when you start raiding and you realize "oh my, warlocks up there again, I hope i won't get benched".

  14. #34
    Is aff lock at the top because of its single or multi target dps? On single target fights their dps would be low wouldn't it?

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy valmer View Post
    Is aff lock at the top because of its single or multi target dps? On single target fights their dps would be low wouldn't it?
    You only play Affliction when it is amazing: Protectors, and when you have exceptional high DPS with nobody failing, so the boss dies quickly.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    You only play Affliction when it is amazing: Protectors, and when you have exceptional high DPS with nobody failing, so the boss dies quickly.
    Pretty much. Affliction opener is probably sickest of all classes, including spread Combusion, but it falls off and overall dps fades the longer fight is (unlike Cata when you did terrible start and had bonkers execute). Shadow and all other hybrid damage is low because of that, you're hybrids, you do less dps than pures, but bring much more utility instead. Celestalon confirmed you will get buffed up next expact, but guess what? You loose most of your utility for that. You can't have both.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    High skill cap.
    Ehm, Nope.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    Shadow and all other hybrid damage is low because of that, you're hybrids, you do less dps than pures, but bring much more utility instead. Celestalon confirmed you will get buffed up next expact, but guess what? You loose most of your utility for that. You can't have both.
    I'd take a Raidwide Gate over one measly grip every 1.5 min every time.
    I'd take a raidwide set of healthstones with 3 charges that can crit you for 50% of your hp over 3 min cd VE every time.
    Shadow buffs Stam and Haste, Warlock buffs Stam and Spellpower.
    Warlocks take up to no damage and have great defensive cd's that allow to continue dpsing. As a shadow you have to stop dealing every time you realize your healers struggle.
    And the best utility : Damage dude. If you healers aren't complete tards you will never need anything of the shadow except damage and maybe an emergency Hymn(which costs dps also)
    With locks in the raid you wouldn't even need the hymn since the fight would be over a min faster :P We had a lock over from another top 10 Guild and he played affli every fight. On fights where i ranked shadow top 30 ranks he did warlock 70-80's and beat me about 100k dps every time, 600k on protectors ( that is 600k MORE).

    So , no. Shadow utility is worse than Locks.

  18. #38
    HS are gone in MoP, Gateway is close to useless most fights and gets nerfed too. Take Garrosh hc - only utility a lock have there, is to have strong dps, to burst engineers or adds in first intermission, and HS every third Whirl. Meanwhile I would kill to have SPriest to have actual root (that can't break from any damage) for adds in p1, Halo for EVERY Whirling corruption, and Feathers as best mobility tool in game for kiting Iron Star.

    You can have Gateway if you want it so badly. On current tier it's rather shitty, on 10 only really GOOD use is Thok, and only because you can cheese fixate so it's not on you (because then, say bb to gate). Garrosh? Getting faster to Engi, most likely to cover your own lock lack of mobility otherwise. Paragons? Useless. Blackfuse? 25 man, maybe. 10 man, only if you never send lock to belt (levitate too stronk btw), we have monk and hunter so it's useless to us anyway. Spoils, useless. Malkrok, useless (I'm covering 1/4 platform w/o problem), Nazgrim, kiting add, yay! (oh... spriest root would actually keep it rooted for longer than distance you gained from gate), Shaman useless (too much movement to place it at one point), Juggernaut useless, Galakras useless (wow your single melee have 2 sec less downtime... if it didn't have charge/step anyway), Sha is nice for prison but people could, like, stand near prison before it goes off anyway?, Norushen useless (yes yes, to skip beam... but not for all raid, I'd argue it makes healing harder than if raid just changed stack spot together), Protectors useless and workable for Immerseus if our guild didn't do tactic in wrong direction (I'd take Mass Dispell all day every day over that though). So yeah, Gateway was STRONG, in ToT, for Qon, Megeara, Ji-Kun and Lei Shen. In SoO it's mostly crap. I can guarantee if you would replace Warlock with SPriest you wouldn't notice diffrence apart from lower raid dps (much lower on single targets I'll give you that), t90 covering what healthstones could do, and give more with raid healing and mana cds and feathers.

    If you want to feel good, I'm most likely rerolling Spriest next expansion after maining lock since BC. With dev team clearly not knowing how locks work (given some straight up stupid changes) and spriest confirmed to being buffed up to pure dps you can be nearly sure it's their time to shine, with one spec having every tool needed ever (multi, burst, aoe, excecute cheese even, it's like perfect amalganation of affli and destro with procs and without shitty pet).

  19. #39
    I've pretty much given up on my shadow priest. My caster alt is now a warlock, I feel so much better.

  20. #40
    Oes noes the middle of the pack! The worst place to be!

    One day Blizzard will find a way to design a DPS graph so that everyone is at the top of the meter simultaneously. Then at long last, the forums will be happy! The players shall rejoice and there shall be peace throughout the land.
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