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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    I said what I meant. My distaste for answering such a question has little to do with who asks it and I think it's generally a bad question without first establishing other things. Anyways, I think we're mostly in the same place. I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for someone to expand outside of their culture, but the condemnation of this person as somehow morally deficient compared to the people condemning him completely ignores the culture he was raised in, as well as how morals develop. Even if it's possible to establish certain things as moral, whether or not they're a 180° against cultural norms, it's still going to have to be precipitated by something and will not just happen spontaneously. If this guy maybe wasn't raised in a way that is conducive to thinking for himself or never had a particular type of experience that encourages him to think about it, it would be unreasonable to expect him to just suddenly come to the conclusion that "Oh fuck, I'm a terrible person." Furthermore, because religion is involved and forms an often times unquestionable foundation to a world view, that further encourages not considering whether or not something is acceptable. "Well why is it OK? God said it's OK and that's all I need to know."
    I would mostly agree. For example, I can't help but feel like the term rape is being thrown around a little liberally in this (as well as pedophilia, the correct term would be hebephila or ehebephilia). If you looked at fMRI scans of a rapist who abducts teenage girls and tortures, and a man who is "given" a teenage wife in an arranged marriage, you would get some very different readings. While both practices are despicable, I don't believe they are at the same level. I believe calling the second situation rape is somewhat disingenuous.

  2. #862
    I am Murloc! zephid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    Explain again the good bits of Islam.
    There are a lot of "good" bits and there are "bad" bits, same with Christianity.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    That's a very simplistic way of thinking things. Just an example: a child doesn't understand that he needs to wear a helmet when he is driving a bicycle, yet the parents force him to do so. Is this wrong?
    A child not wearing a helmet is at risk of being harmed also children usually can and do understand that if they don't wear a helmet they can be hurt. Thus the two do not match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    If she had killed her parents she wouldn't have been married in the first place.
    She killed the people after she was married after the fact to get out of it. Killing her parents after the marriage would not have had that effect and killing them pre-marriage would have been pointless.

    So please do think things through before you call me stupid. It doesn't reflect well on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goranus View Post
    You call her a murder for this?! A child a murder to protect herself from being raped?!! I'm just speechless
    She is technically a murderer since the killing was unlawful.

  4. #864
    I am Murloc! zephid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Then the pain you are subjected to is the worst part of it. When you are not killed, you either receive help and you are freed from being tortured, or you are helpless and can't escape it. In the latter case, I'd rather die in pain than endure more of it. Like I said.. it can break someone's will to live.
    The difference is that you can survive torture.

    It all comes down to on the duration of the torture.

    Would you rather die than be tortured for a day? a week? a month? etc.

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    There are a lot of "good" bits and there are "bad" bits, same with Christianity.
    It's basically just a bunch of bad bits sprinkled with good bits that are obvious to anyone capable of even the most basic ethical thinking, same with Christianity.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    I would mostly agree. For example, I can't help but feel like the term rape is being thrown around a little liberally in this (as well as pedophilia, the correct term would be hebephila or ehebephilia). If you looked at fMRI scans of a rapist who abducts teenage girls and tortures, and a man who is "given" a teenage wife in an arranged marriage, you would get some very different readings. While both practices are despicable, I don't believe they are at the same level. I believe calling the second situation rape is somewhat disingenuous.
    Yeah, I actually addressed that in one of my first few posts. I have no idea about other countries, but I think it's just a result of the hysteria over child sexual victimization. Pedophile has a highly negative connotation and, for better or worse, people tend to have a really undiscerning view when it comes to different types of crimes involving sex with minors.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    It's basically just a bunch of bad bits sprinkled with good bits that are obvious to anyone capable of even the most basic ethical thinking, same with Christianity.
    No, that's not really true at all. i think the problem is when most people here about Islam it's on the news...right after something extraordinary has been done. That kind skews peoples perceptions a bit.
    Get a grip man! It's CHEESE!

  8. #868
    The Insane Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bervose View Post
    A child not wearing a helmet is at risk of being harmed also children usually can and do understand that if they don't wear a helmet they can be hurt. Thus the two do not match.
    A child in muslim culture might also understand that getting married is a good thing. Because that's what it generally is in their society. It's the key to a better, or even an actual, life.


    She killed the people after she was married after the fact to get out of it. Killing her parents after the marriage would not have had that effect and killing them pre-marriage would have been pointless.
    Why killing them before the marriage would have been pointless? No marriage would have happened.

    So please do think things through before you call me stupid. It doesn't reflect well on you.
    Did I call you stupid?
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I prefer "enclosed creationist" but yeah, I'm a flat earther.

  9. #869
    Blademaster Bullderp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goranus View Post
    However they are just as bad as the husband for joining and condoling such behaviour. Remember the whole about bulling? Well it's the same in this scenario, letting someone harass other's your effectively taking the bully's side.
    This is where I'm hesitant to agree with you. I'm a moral absolutist, but I have to take into account the level of ignorance on the part of the individuals who weren't directly involved with this marriage. Who all attended? I would assume family; parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, possibly grandparents, etc. I can't verify that, but it would make most sense. That said, assuming it were true, how would her siblings be accomplices if they were forced to attend out of tradition/obligation/because-i'm-your-parent-and-i-said-so? Because they sat their in their cultural ignorance of the wrongdoing going on about them, they deserve to "suffer but not die"? Or the wives/aunts/etc who are forced to attend because of their societal position which is equivalent to an object rather than a person? They most likely didn't have a choice to be there.

    I'm honestly having a hard time justifying their suffering on her behalf, when, in all likelihood, they've suffered under the same cultural norms that she's being subjected to.

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by poser765 View Post
    No, that's not really true at all. i think the problem is when most people here about Islam it's on the news...right after something extraordinary has been done. That kind skews peoples perceptions a bit.
    Not at all. Christianity is just as bad and currently christianity pose a more realistic threat to attacks on women's rights(this being my main concern), among other things, in the western societies.

  11. #871
    The Lightbringer Shinra1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bervose View Post
    It's not just the age thing, in fact it's not even mainly the age thing in this case. It's the fact that she was forced to marry and live with this man when she did not want to.

    Also people are understanding why she did this (rather than saying it was a good thing) because she was basically abducted by this man and expected to be his wife.
    By supporting her action you're consequentially telling me that mass murder is okay if you have been wronged by a single person. Which is inherently not only abhorrent but logically speaking doesn't make much sense to me. 1 life is more important than a potential 14 lives? That's what it boils down to the numbers, what's more is that she didn't have to kill them. She could've killed herself. I'm not saying she should've committed suicide but if things were as bad as she alleges she could've ended right then and there. But no, her actions were laced with revenge and possibly psychopathic tendencies.

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    By supporting her action you're consequentially telling me that mass murder is okay if you have been wronged by a single person.
    I don't see how. Slippery slope much?

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    If you looked at fMRI scans of a rapist who abducts teenage girls and tortures, and a man who is "given" a teenage wife in an arranged marriage, you would get some very different readings. While both practices are despicable, I don't believe they are at the same level. I believe calling the second situation rape is somewhat disingenuous.
    I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. While the man might indeed not feel as if he is a rapist, what about the child bride? How does she feel about not having the power to refuse sexual intercourse, and does she feel like the abducted girls in the first situation?

  14. #874
    Herald of the Titans Violent's Avatar
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    If you don't like arranged marriages, stop them all. Write to your leaders to go over and put an end & nullify all arranged marriages.

    No? But you want to spew on about "freedom of choice".. Yet you don't seem to realize, this isn't the act of 1 crazy man and a bunch of his friends out on the town looking for some 14 yearold girl to rape.
    This is a CULTURE who has been practicing arranged marriages, longer than the USA has been a country.

    Who are ANY of you to say that it isn't "the right way" to do things? Let me guess, because you believe you're doing it the "right way"? Guess what! People from that culture don't believe YOU are doing it right.. What now?

    I bet you think we should just leave people alone now, huh? Yeah.. me too.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

  15. #875
    just stopped read on "Nigeria"

    rest was obvious

  16. #876
    The Lightbringer Shinra1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    I don't see how. Slippery slope much?
    I just love when people throw about terms like slippery slope and appealing to tradition and fallacy this and fallacy that. It's a small wonder you choose to hide behind such terms when your views are laid out in front of you.

    I'm talking to you as I would address you in person, in real life. If you want to talk on that level I welcome you however this petty arguing is not doing me and more specifically you any justice, dear.

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    By supporting her action you're consequentially telling me that mass murder is okay if you have been wronged by a single person. Which is inherently not only abhorrent but logically speaking doesn't make much sense to me.
    So you do not believe a man or woman has the right to defend themselves from rape or even death. Because they could always just kill themselves instead.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    I just love when people throw about terms like slippery slope and appealing to tradition and fallacy this and fallacy that. It's a small wonder you choose to hide behind such terms when your views are laid out in front of you.

    I'm talking to you as I would address you in person, in real life. If you want to talk on that level I welcome you however this petty arguing is not doing me and more specifically you any justice, dear.
    I wouldn't even talk to you irl with your views.

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Not at all. Christianity is just as bad and currently christianity pose a more realistic threat to attacks on women's rights(this being my main concern), among other things, in the western societies.
    Now is it really "religion" that is attacking women's right or is it inherently sexist pigs who are trying to justify their actions with religion?
    Get a grip man! It's CHEESE!

  20. #880
    The Lightbringer Shinra1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aratra View Post
    So you do not believe a man or woman has the right to defend themselves from rape or even death. Because they could always just kill themselves instead.
    Defending yourself is one thing however pre-meditating mass murder under the guise of a party is not only despicable but actually offends sacred hospitium.

    Also calling her husband a rapist and a pedophile is flagrantly ignorant.

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