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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Do you honestly think that muslims didn't talk to you before 9/11? As long as there has been US presence in the Arabic states (from 1980's or so) there has been lots of talk between those two factions. It's not like they just suddenly decided that USA is evil and smash planes into the buildings. They tried discussion, didn't work.

    By the way, there is no "right way".
    Because discussion doesn't work in a situation such as that.. This thread is basically all that in a nut shell.. Some people believe the way that another group of people live is "wrong". There is no reasoning with either, because the "problems" to begin with are un-reasonable. Just as a bunch of us, going over and blowing up some Nigerien places, because they have arranged marriages.

    The only need for discussion is for those with the problem to discuss within themselves, why they have a problem with it in the first place.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

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  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullderp View Post
    I mentioned earlier that I am a moral absolutist. Means that I think there is a definitive right and definitive wrong. However, I also have the common sense (decency?) to take into account the level of ignorance we humans typically have about that moral compass, especially given other societal and cultural norms. If one society says it's okay to behead someone because they read a different religious book than what the government allows, I'd think there's some moral high ground we can take to call shenanigans on that practice. I also think that the first response we should have as outsiders with a superior ethic isn't to run in with guns blazin'; instead call them out on it. Make them aware that what they're doing is wrong. Make them understand why it is wrong. Because odds are they don't know and think everything is honkey dorey. Use the UN, use NATO, whatever; as long as we're attempting to educate them on their unethical practices.
    I Agree with you man. couldn't have said better myself.
    Nihilism is not the end but the beginning of what is real. Making something out of nothing.
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  3. #903
    Blademaster Bullderp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goranus View Post
    Ok maybe I should have been a little more specific. I personally think that the ones who whole heartedly believe that this is right should suffer. But I also know that there is and always will be collateral in such situations. As for her female relatives. I have a mixed stances. On hand I wish stood up form themselves like she do but they deserve to suffer for their inaction. But the same time what could they do? And that leaves me a little mff'ed at the whole ordeal as I believe that the murder the bride committed was justified but a lot of people are bitching about she should have done it and that would leave she to become a fuck doll for her husband.
    This is why I said "Karma is a two way street." Even if we could label her motive as worthy to perform an act of self-defense, I don't think you can ever justify collateral in whatever self-defense you may be attempting. Thus why I think she deserves punishment for her actions, no matter how 'justified' she could have been in wanting to react against the situation she was in. Applaud her desire to get out of it, but mourn the unnecessary death and suffering she caused. Let it be a lesson for all to learn from: 1) that there is a situation in Nigeria that needs correcting, and 2) there is a right way to go about getting out of it.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Shame that she'll suffer for it, but I admire the shit out of her. I hope the pedo-rapist died very painfully.
    While I agree with your sentiment to a degree, he's hardly a pedophile. The age of consent in more than a few US states is 14, and our marriage laws allow for pretty young marriages as well with parental consent. In a third world nation like Nigeria, he's even less of a pedophile from a cultural standpoint. And you really think that it was OK of her to poison her husband's friends as well as her husband?

  5. #905
    The Lightbringer Shinra1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aratra View Post
    How else do you suggest she defend herself?
    Erm I don't know maybe just poisoning him? Who would suspect her? She got caught because she was wildly incompetent and naive.

    I did not call him a pedophile, and while he might not have felt like a rapist because of the culture he was raised in, the fact is that the girl was his sex slave. She did not consent to the marriage, therefore she did not consent to consummate the marriage. She was facing a lifetime of rape, and possibly death, because a child bearing a child is potentially deadly, especially in those parts of the world.
    ?

    She is not his sex slave, she is his wife. They're not bound by your hypocritical Western morality as they're in an Islamic state where it's perfectly justified to wed a 14 year old. Are you aware that child marriage was a common practice found everywhere in the world as late as the 20th century even in the West?

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Could we never use that horribly bright green again? Thanks.
    It was to make sure that nobody could even almost confuse fact with opinion.

    Well I was always aware of those fact. But I rather would see women having right an to have them being the livestock or men. Changes should made period. But they should be gradual not drastic
    I fully agree. Some people don't know of these facts though.

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    Erm I don't know maybe just poisoning him? Who would suspect her? She got caught because she was wildly incompetent and naive.
    A wildly incompetent and naive 14 year old. Who would have thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    She is not his sex slave, she is his wife. They're not bound by your hypocritical Western morality as they're in an Islamic state where it's perfectly justified to wed a 14 year old. Are you aware that child marriage was a common practice found everywhere in the world as late as the 20th century even in the West?
    So you disagree with the U.N. labor organization which classifies early and forced marriage as modern-day slavery. Again, I ask, what makes you more qualified to decide what does and does not constitute slavery?

    Buying a slave, and then buying a ring for their finger doesn't emancipate them. The practice of selling daughters as child brides is essentially socially sanctioned child trafficking.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullderp View Post
    I mentioned earlier that I am a moral absolutist. Means that I think there is a definitive right and definitive wrong. However, I also have the common sense (decency?) to take into account the level of ignorance we humans typically have about that moral compass, especially given other societal and cultural norms. If one society says it's okay to behead someone because they read a different religious book than what the government allows, I'd think there's some moral high ground we can take to call shenanigans on that practice. I also think that the first response we should have as outsiders with a superior ethic isn't to run in with guns blazin'; instead call them out on it. Make them aware that what they're doing is wrong. Make them understand why it is wrong. Because odds are they don't know and think everything is honkey dorey. Use the UN, use NATO, whatever; as long as we're attempting to educate them on their unethical practices.
    Just because you are a moral absolutist doesn't mean that you are right.

    You want to enforce your morals upon others, just because you think you are right and they are wrong.

    One should think morals as a strategy. There are various strategies to achieve the same goal. Some are more efficient than others.

    Here the goal is a working society. Their strategy, aka morals, works to achieve that. As such, no matter how loud you shout, it won't change because their system works and it's efficient. A unilateral free will would probably make their society crumble. If their present system didn't work, they would want to rework their strategy - but for now there is no need. The only way you can change their society now is to enforce yours upon them. Which I think is immoral.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I prefer "enclosed creationist" but yeah, I'm a flat earther.

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Just because you are a moral absolutist doesn't mean that you are right.

    You want to enforce your morals upon others, just because you think you are right and they are wrong.

    One should think morals as a strategy. There are various strategies to achieve the same goal. Some are more efficient than others.

    Here the goal is a working society. Their strategy, aka morals, works to achieve that. As such, no matter how loud you shout, it won't change because their system works and it's efficient. A unilateral free will would probably make their society crumble. If their present system didn't work, they would want to rework their strategy - but for now there is no need. The only way you can change their society now is to enforce yours upon them. Which I think is immoral.
    That's all well and good, and maybe you think that forcing your morals on others is bad, but isn't that essentially what the husband was trying to do? Force his morality (Forced marriage is okay etc etc) onto someone (the child) who's morals were in disagreement with this. She thought forced marriage was not okay, and shouldn't be forced into it. He can find someone else who is okay with the concept of forced marriage. Not everyone in a society has the same morals.

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aratra View Post
    A wildly incompetent and naive 14 year old. Who would have thought?


    So you disagree with the U.N. labor organization which classifies early and forced marriage as modern-day slavery. Again, I ask, what makes you more qualified to decide what does and does not constitute slavery?

    Buying a slave, and then buying a ring for their finger doesn't emancipate them. The practice of selling daughters as child brides is essentially socially sanctioned child trafficking.
    First of all it's not an early marriage; she is 14 and as someone correctly stated above 14 is legal in some states in the US. And as I mentioned in my previous post it's widely practiced across the world and has been practiced in the West as well.

    Secondly, the UN is heavily Westernised, that is, it perpetuates ideals held by secular nations where liberalism is the agenda. It doesn't recognised Sharia Law or indeed Islamic states like Nigeria. Bringing the U.N laws in to the discussion is hardly relevant, so spare me the theatrics.

    Thirdly, you keep mentioning the words slave and slavery yet nowhere in the original article have I read that this 14 year old girl has been sold or indeed bought. Weird because you'd think if this was indeed the case the newspaper would've commented on it.

    Finally, what innocent child would device a plan to mass murder 14 people? Perhaps she was married off because she was mature for her age or she was troublesome and her parents thought that marriage might ground her?

  11. #911
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    I'm amazed how much discussion there is here and angst between people.

    Seriously, details are very vague. WE know almost nothing.

    How can you objectively judge particular case without complete info ?

    Just shows people here should not be judges. Jumping to conclusions, assumptions and sentences based on nothing of substance.

    Meh.

  12. #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    That's all well and good, and maybe you think that forcing your morals on others is bad, but isn't that essentially what the husband was trying to do? Force his morality (Forced marriage is okay etc etc) onto someone (the child) who's morals were in disagreement with this. She thought forced marriage was not okay, and shouldn't be forced into it. He can find someone else who is okay with the concept of forced marriage. Not everyone in a society has the same morals.
    Well from a certain viewpoint (forcing the marriage) you are correct, but then again, you need to drop the western mindset. Children are not making decisions in a muslim society. A decision about marriage is not children's to make. Just like children aren't doing decisions in a western society, hence for example the age limit for voting is generally 18.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I prefer "enclosed creationist" but yeah, I'm a flat earther.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    I'm amazed how much discussion there is here and angst between people.

    Seriously, details are very vague. WE know almost nothing.

    How can you objectively judge particular case without complete info ?

    Just shows people here should not be judges. Jumping to conclusions, assumptions and sentences based on nothing of substance.

    Meh.
    We know she was in a forced marriage. That is all you need to know. Any other circumstances are irrelevant.

  14. #914
    The Lightbringer Shinra1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    I'm amazed how much discussion there is here and angst between people.

    Seriously, details are very vague. WE know almost nothing.

    How can you objectively judge particular case without complete info ?

    Just shows people here should not be judges. Jumping to conclusions, assumptions and sentences based on nothing of substance.

    Meh.


    This.


    According to some people the man is a rapist and physically abusive oh and he bought her too. You guys give reading between the lines a whole new meaning.

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Well from a certain viewpoint (forcing the marriage) you are correct, but then again, you need to drop the western mindset. Children are not making decisions in a muslim society. A decision about marriage is not children's to make. Just like children aren't doing decisions in a western society, hence for example the age limit for voting is generally 18.
    So, let me get this straight. A child is old enough to marry, but not old enough to have views on what is moral and immoral regarding marriage? Don't you think that's a little... broken?

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    First of all it's not an early marriage; she is 14 and as someone correctly stated above 14 is legal in some states in the US. And as I mentioned in my previous post it's widely practiced across the world and has been practiced in the West as well.

    Secondly, the UN has a is heavily Westernised, that is, it perpetuates ideals held by secular nations where liberalism is the agenda. It doesn't recognised Sharia Law or indeed Islamic states like Nigeria. Bringing the U.N laws in to the discussion is hardly relevant, so spare me the theatrics.

    Thirdly, you keep mentioning the words slave and slavery yet nowhere in the original article have I read that this 14 year old girl has been sold or indeed bought. Weird because you'd think if this was indeed the case the newspaper would've commented on it.
    Answer these questions:

    If she didn't consent to the marriage, how did she consent to consummating it? Could she have faced potential repercussions for leaving? Could she have faced potential repercussions for attempting to refuse sexual intercourse?

    Finally, what innocent child would device a plan to mass murder 14 people? Perhaps she was married off because she was mature for her age or she was troublesome and her parents thought that marriage might ground her?
    Perhaps a 14 year old girl who for whatever silly reasons feels as if she was raped, and is facing a lifetime of more rape, and is probably going to be expected to bear the children of whom she feels is her rapist, which could very possibly kill her? Do you not acknowledge any remote possibility that this girl felt she had been raped? Growing up in a culture that condones rape doesn't make the rape victim feel any less raped, it just allows the rapist to escape culpability.

  17. #917
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    While I do feel it's wrong to have arranged marriages, especially with a 14 year old girl, it is part of their culture, been around for thousands of years and who are we to judge one culture, to make comparisons?

    Naturally, almost all species (Including our own) have a system where as soon as the females are able to breed, they're turned into a broodmare. I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't pretend it's acceptable because we used to do it, but it is their culture, it's their way of life and it isn't our place to condemn their practices, although we can disagree with it.

    I think poisoning the entire party was a little extreme, but her situation was extreme. She should however still be dealt with within the eyes of the law, but potentially with a diminished sentence such as Manslaughter rather then Murder?

    All comments are my own personal views & opinions.

  18. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    We know she was in a forced marriage. That is all you need to know. Any other circumstances are irrelevant.
    I've been forced to do tons of stuff in my life. Some things just need to be done. In a muslim world, marriage is one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I prefer "enclosed creationist" but yeah, I'm a flat earther.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Bervose View Post
    Actually if you'd read this thread you'd know I do not applaud what the girl did. However killing an abductor is something that you cannot blame her for. Killing the other people however was wrong but considering her situation I'm not going to call her evil for it.
    Yeah no.

    If she was desperate to get out she could've put something less strong in.

    She wanted to kill them, which makes her a psycho.

  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Just because you are a moral absolutist doesn't mean that you are right.

    You want to enforce your morals upon others, just because you think you are right and they are wrong.

    One should think morals as a strategy. There are various strategies to achieve the same goal. Some are more efficient than others.

    Here the goal is a working society. Their strategy, aka morals, works to achieve that. As such, no matter how loud you shout, it won't change because their system works and it's efficient. A unilateral free will would probably make their society crumble. If their present system didn't work, they would want to rework their strategy - but for now there is no need. The only way you can change their society now is to enforce yours upon them. Which I think is immoral.
    Using my earlier example--beheading for reading banned religious books--just because they think this is the right thing to do doesn't make it so. There are some things which are, or should be, universally accepted as morally right or wrong. If human rights are being violated in certain countries, we can and should have the moral obligation to step in and see these human rights are upheld. Cultural sensitivity only goes so far.

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