Child Bride Kills Husband and his 3 buddies

[Gungtah]

Tell me. Was the psychological development to the point to where you were able to mentally outwit and manipulate your partner?

Given that you were also a "kid", I doubt it.

Wait are we talking about rape or sexually active children. The person I was talking to was demonizing sexually active children, not sure where "manipulation" comes into that.

There's quite the difference between two people close to eachother in age, in puberty, having sex and a full-grown man having sex with someone whos just pretty much entered puberty.

14 year old girls aren't "just pretty much entered puberty". Actually they're practically finished (usually) with puberty by 14. Probably why they're getting married.

[Ragnarohk]

Although rape is something horribly wrong it does not justify murder. Hell, some places don't even consider death as a penalty for murder.

[Noomz]

Well according to the "Human Rights" model that noomz believes in, we should.

I think you missed the multitude of paragraphs that a child rapist breaks. I sincerely don't think you understand what breaking human rights and law means.
No, the first paragraph is vague at best. It doesnt' detail that brotherhood should be extended to lawbreaking child rapists.

[Deleted]

14 year old girls aren't "just pretty much entered puberty". Actually they're practically finished (usually) with puberty by 14. Probably why they're getting married.

I'm well aware of that but forced marriage with children go down to 8-9 year olds as well, in case you didn't know, who haven't even gotten into puberty.

[Mormolyce]

Arranged marriages increase the success rate of marriages and strengthen bonds between families.
Successful marriages are good.
Strengthening bonds between families is good.
Ergo, arranged marriages are good.

Your argument is going to have some real problems if you think logic is going to prove that arranged marriages are impermissible. Their practice may very well not be particularly rational, but you'd be a fool if you think all of yours are. As far as I know, all ethical arguments regress to a premise that must either be accepted or rejected without further being reasoned for. If you reject that premise, there's nothing that can be done to force you to accept the argument or subsequent arguments derived from that as sound.

I think it's morally reprehensible to put family alliances ahead of people marrying the people they love. So does Western culture which is precisely why we abolished that kind of view of marriage centuries ago.

Forced marriage and arranged marriage are different things, however arranged marriages are somewhat dubious as the level of pressure, coercion and force exerted on the arranged couple... varies. In a lot of cases arranged marriage is virtually or actually forced marriage.

If your argument is simply that all morality is relative, then sure, but that applies to everything. Including murder, eg the ones this girl committed.

[Ragnarohk]

Off topic:
Does anybody know if it's possible to "surrender" your own human rights?
I asked that question once in a philosophy lecture and we never came to a conclusion

[Mormolyce]

Although rape is something horribly wrong it does not justify murder. Hell, some places don't even consider death as a penalty for murder.

Dunno about that. There can be mitigating circumstances for murder, there are none for rape.

[Thessik-Irontail]

Arranged marriages are a terrible thing, People call me a cunt and a bigot but I believe in freedom of choice.

And other people believe in many different things. We should respect other cultures and not be a bigot, but as you said, you are use to that term already.

[Deleted]

Well to be perfectly frank, a first page Google search result that has the phrase 'human rights' in it is not good enough for me. You yourself already violated the first Article of Human Rights by "not having a spirit of brotherhood" toward child rapists. Which serves to illustrate the point of there being no concrete definition for what 'human rights' are. You believe child rapist have no human rights, I believe they do. How do we figure out who is right?

You may be underestimating the amount of pain rape causes. The way speak in your posts sounds is if you merely advise against rape. Rape IS evil and deserves severe punishment. It's evil because it causes deep, lifelong pain, and destroys someone's feelings of control and self-worth. How can the question even be posed whether or that is evil?

I concede that death is too far. Murder is the worst offense - but rape comes very, very close. It destroys someone's life, the fiber of their being, albeit it does not stop their pulse. Nonetheless, this girl was given NO other means of justice. That's what's so sad - she was forced into running away, murder, or conceding to a life of being raped. All options are horrible. Even if murder was too far, at the very least, the outcome shows that child rape and forced marriage is a disgusting trap that pushes one to go to extreme measures to escape, or else give in surrendering complete control of themselves.

[Noomz]

Who is to say who is more right?

I don't think these philosophical games have a point. A value is blatantly superior if it offers something better, more valuable, safer and offers protection.
I really do understand the little twists you're wanting to make of this as some kind of moral dilemma or eye-of-the-beholder thing, but it's wrong.

Billions have died because of global warming? That is a blatant lie. I'm not denying global warming, but no billions have died from it.
The population is a fraction of what it is today? What does that even mean? A fraction of what? The population today is a fraction of what it is today? -What-?

Murder is not neccesary to change our world for the better when it comes to global warming. You are confusing a moral issue with a factual, practical issue.

[Deleted]

And other people believe in many different things. We should respect other cultures and not be a bigot, but as you said, you are use to that term already.

No, culture shouldn't always be respected, not when people are getting hurt.

You may be underestimating the amount of pain rape causes. The way speak in your posts sounds is if you merely advise against rape. Rape IS evil and deserves severe punishment. It's evil because it causes deep, lifelong pain, and destroys someone's feelings of control and self-worth. How can the question even be posed whether or that is evil?

I concede that death is too far. Murder is the worst offense - but rape comes very, very close. It destroys someone's life, the fiber of their being, albeit it does not stop their pulse. Nonetheless, this girl was given NO other means of justice. That's what's so sad - she was forced into running away, murder, or conceding to a life of being raped. All options are horrible. Even if murder was too far, at the very least, the outcome shows that child rape and forced marriage is a disgusting trap that pushes one to go to extreme measures to escape, or else give in surrendering complete control of themselves.

People understimate it because they've never actually talked about it with someone that's been a victim of it.

[ShimmerSwirl]

You are so sickengly twisting and misinterpreting things just to fit it into your completely illogical "reasoning" that I'm lost for words as how to respond to you, because actual reason and logic may not work in response to something so ludicrous as what you just wrote.

It's not a google search, it's the UN.ORG homepage. What the UN has written isn't good enough for you?
I belive that anyone out to harm or injure innocents like children, forfeit all rights. If you want to be part of the rights, you don't violate them. If you violate them, you aren't part of them. Child rapists violate more than one human right.

I'm quite sure that it's still WRONG to be a child rapist... Quite sure...

The UN is composed of failable men and women just like you and me, I do not worship them and treat their words as gold simply because of the 'UN' logo. And apparently you don't value their definition of human rights either, seeing as you "belive that anyone out to harm or injure innocents like children, forfeit all rights", which is contrary to the UN doctrine in Article 3:

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

So a child rapist would be violating another members, "security of person", but you would violating the rapist's "right to life" by executing them. How do we solve that one? What if the rapist invoked his Article 14 rights of seeking asylum from persecution in another country? What does that do to the whole thing? The inconsistency conundrum of 'human rights'.

If you at any point in your life you took a toy away from your child, you violated their human rights (according to the UN), and thus (according to your definition) forfeited your own right to any future 'human rights'. See what a big mess this is when you get into it?

[Gungtah]

No, culture shouldn't always be respected, not when people are getting hurt.

i think the people who were murdered got hurt.

I'm well aware of that but forced marriage with children go down to 8-9 year olds as well, in case you didn't know.

Don't move the goal posts friend, because now I don't have anything to say. That's a different situation.

[Noomz]

You may be underestimating the amount of pain rape causes. The way speak in your posts sounds is if you merely advise against rape. Rape IS evil and deserves severe punishment. It's evil because it causes deep, lifelong pain, and destroys someone's feelings of control and self-worth. How can the question even be posed whether or that is evil?

I concede that death is too far. Murder is the worst offense - but rape comes very, very close. It destroys someone's life, the fiber of their being, albeit it does not stop their pulse. Nonetheless, this girl was given NO other means of justice. That's what's so sad - she was forced into running away, murder, or conceding to a life of being raped. All options are horrible. Even if murder was too far, at the very least, the outcome shows that child rape and forced marriage is a disgusting trap that pushes one to go to extreme measures to escape, or else give in surrendering complete control of themselves.

I'm glad someone has a grasp of human emotion and it's values. I agree with you. Except that I think that they should die.

[ShimmerSwirl]

I think you missed the multitude of paragraphs that a child rapist breaks. I sincerely don't think you understand what breaking human rights and law means.
No, the first paragraph is vague at best. It doesnt' detail that brotherhood should be extended to lawbreaking child rapists.

You're right, its vague, it doesn't detail much of anything. There's ample room for interpretation. Yes this is the doctrine that you base your world view of human rights on.

[Deleted]

i think the people who were murdered got hurt.

They deserved it.

[Dunefire]

from what ive been reading since my first post there needs to be something stated quite clearly so it can be added or looked at as a possible standard.

There is right and wrong in every culture and religion in the world, NO culture or religion has been "pure" or "right" 100% of the time. There is a voice that speaks to us about how something is right or wrong, yes this is a opinion brought on by life and values taught to us by society, family and friends but asking a child whats right and wrong, somebody who hasn't been indoctrinated by the world or religion at large and its quite surprising what comes out in the conversation, get a child about 3-5 years in age and ask then some sticky moral questions (not using rude words or situations) and sit back and listen. You might be surprised at what you hear.

[Mormolyce]

So should we make a spinoff thread called "is rape bad?" with a yes/no poll?

/wrists

[ShimmerSwirl]

You may be underestimating the amount of pain rape causes. The way speak in your posts sounds is if you merely advise against rape. Rape IS evil and deserves severe punishment. It's evil because it causes deep, lifelong pain, and destroys someone's feelings of control and self-worth. How can the question even be posed whether or that is evil?

I concede that death is too far. Murder is the worst offense - but rape comes very, very close. It destroys someone's life, the fiber of their being, albeit it does not stop their pulse. Nonetheless, this girl was given NO other means of justice. That's what's so sad - she was forced into running away, murder, or conceding to a life of being raped. All options are horrible. Even if murder was too far, at the very least, the outcome shows that child rape and forced marriage is a disgusting trap that pushes one to go to extreme measures to escape, or else give in surrendering complete control of themselves.

I never said rape was not evil, that debate was about forced marriage.

[Mormolyce]

I concede that death is too far. Murder is the worst offense - but rape comes very, very close.

What defines the gravity of a crime?

The suffering of the victim? Technically murder victims feel nothing.