Lets Talk About Talent Tier 75

[Enfilade]

Am I the ONLY one who likes RE the most? Can't stand BT because of boring macroing and can't stand RC because it feels too slow.

Note: I play Frost.

[Unholyground]

it's being moved lower in WOD - 56 I believe
I still think they should make RC baseline and remove the entire line though

I think they should remove them from talents and combine it with rune forge effects, applying only the one in your main hand (to prevent DW from becoming broken). This would also give them good reason to re-tool some of the effects.

[Teebu]

I don't see any other class in the game that has to waste three perfectly good talent spots to choose how they regenerate their core resource.

So, you're not too familiar with the Mage class?

I agree though, it's pretty bad to have such a necessary passive come halfway to max level.

[LCDArcade]

So, you're not too familiar with the Mage class?

I agree though, it's pretty bad to have such a necessary passive come halfway to max level.

What I meant was like I don't see hunter choosing how they regen focus or Paladins choosing how they get holy power. You either use cobra shot or crusader strike. I dont have to pick a talent to get my focus back -_-

[Schizoide]

The mage L90 talents are (rightfully) being removed. Well rune of power remains but it's optional.

Also, the DK rune regen talents are moving from L75 to L60 in 6.x. Leveling DKs will get them in the first hour or so.

[Unholyground]

The mage L90 talents are (rightfully) being removed. Well rune of power remains but it's optional.

Also, the DK rune regen talents are moving from L75 to L60 in 6.x. Leveling DKs will get them in the first hour or so.

I still think that merging those effects into rune forging would make sense because they directly effect runes.

[Skarssen]

Not a bad idea actually, and makes thematic sense.

We could have our damage/utility rune (FC, RR, etc,) and our regen rune. DW would have to be limited to one regen rune, but I kind of like this idea.

[Taninsam]

Am I the ONLY one who likes RE the most? Can't stand BT because of boring macroing and can't stand RC because it feels too slow.

Note: I play Frost.

It makes absolutely no sense to macro BT. If you macro BT, you might as well pick RE. If you think it's "boring macroing", learn to use it properly and game it depending on what's going on with the encounter - you may find bigger dps gains than what sims are telling you.

[Unholyground]

Not a bad idea actually, and makes thematic sense.

We could have our damage/utility rune (FC, RR, etc,) and our regen rune. DW would have to be limited to one regen rune, but I kind of like this idea.

Well it still gives you some choice but you would have more freedom and they could put in a fun talent tier instead.

[Schizoide]

It makes absolutely no sense to macro BT. If you macro BT, you might as well pick RE. If you think it's "boring macroing", learn to use it properly and game it depending on what's going on with the encounter - you may find bigger dps gains than what sims are telling you.

That's a pretty cool story, but like most people, you can't substantiate it.

[Baphomette]

It makes absolutely no sense to macro BT. If you macro BT, you might as well pick RE.

Not at all. RE is RNG, BT is reliable.

[Enfilade]

It makes absolutely no sense to macro BT. If you macro BT, you might as well pick RE. If you think it's "boring macroing", learn to use it properly and game it depending on what's going on with the encounter - you may find bigger dps gains than what sims are telling you.

You must be new to DK, despite your signature. Macroing BT is better than using RE in the sense that it gives back a fully depleted rune as a DEATH Rune, and not just whatever it was previously, like a Frost or Unholy Rune.

[Schizoide]

Experience doesn't necessarily indicate a player understands mechanics. The two aren't related. WoW has millions of players. Many skilled DKs in progression guilds just follow FAQs. That's what the FAQs are for, after all.

This poster advertises a theorycrafting blog in his signature, so there's no call to attack his experience in the first place. He maintains that he has something to say about underlying mechanics. That's why I asked him to substantiate his claims, rather than immediately dismissing them. Who knows, maybe he can prove that unmacroed BT is better than simulation predicts? I would like to see that proof.

[Taninsam]

You must be new to DK, despite your signature. Macroing BT is better than using RE in the sense that it gives back a fully depleted rune as a DEATH Rune, and not just whatever it was previously, like a Frost or Unholy Rune.

Woah there, you sure took that wrong. I'm sorry if I offended you - it wasn't with a bad intention.

If you are using RE, you can game it by mostly ignoring UH runes and force refresh death and frost ones. Played like that, it's essentially the same as macroed BT (well, at least if you are DW) - I think someone did the sims a while ago.

That's a pretty cool story, but like most people, you can't substantiate it.

Sure I can.
Sha of pride? AMS soak swelling pride (pools too), spam FS to build blood charges, spam HB when adds come out.
Jugg? AMS mortars, spam FS and build charges for siege mode. You'll be majorly avoiding shit on the ground and moving around, so spamming HB to ignore range and positioning = good
Malk? Same as Sha (with pools)
Siegecrafter? Same as Sha and Malk (with overloads, also essential to keep applying chilblains to new targets)
Garrosh? Same as all previous bosses. Also, when you need to gtfo from boss, death coil garrosh or pet (if out of boss range) to build charges and HB when running back to range.

You can't do ANY of that if you macro it, because you are always forcing the rune activation for moments that you may not need them. We are so overloaded with resources, might as well use them at the right times.

Not at all. RE is RNG, BT is reliable.

True, but it evens out over time, unless you have the worst luck ever.

[Schizoide]

You misunderstand. I wasn't saying that pooling resources for burst is useless. It obviously can be quite valuable indeed. My argument is as follows.

1) Blood Tap can only "pool" two runes, and can only hold them for a very limited period of time before you cap charges. This is a very limited amount of burst, and it can only be held for a very short window.

2) If you mess up at any time and cap charges, you will lose substantial damage versus macroing BT (or just using RC).

3) The very small amount of theoretical performance gained from timing burst on two whole runes isn't worth the attention tradeoff. Even perfect execution won't get you much gain, and very few people can perfectly execute anything while also playing their character and staying out of the fire. Your timing argument requires not just perfect execution on Blood Tap itself, but also thinking ahead through a ~10s time window whether you should delay using Blood Tap while also not capping charges. I find that unlikely.

Unlikely, but not impossible. Maybe you're an elite player, and you can perfectly execute that. You'll gain some performance. How much is difficult to quantify, which is why I asked you to substantiate it. But even if you could, it wouldn't apply to most players, because they would not maintain perfect execution, particularly with that timing window, while also not standing in the fire. I know I couldn't do it.

[Enfilade]

Woah there, you sure took that wrong. I'm sorry if I offended you - it wasn't with a bad intention.

If you are using RE, you can game it by mostly ignoring UH runes and force refresh death and frost ones. Played like that, it's essentially the same as macroed BT (well, at least if you are DW) - I think someone did the sims a while ago.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across like that. I'm curiously interested in your sims and numbers comparing RE with macroed-BT and non-macroed-BT.

[Schizoide]

Yep, gamed RE is basically the same as macroed BT for DW frost. If you enjoy gaming RE (psycho!), go for it. That's central to my criticism of the rune regen talent tier, it really doesn't matter which one you pick.

[CausalXXLinkXx]

Woah there, you sure took that wrong. I'm sorry if I offended you - it wasn't with a bad intention.

If you are using RE, you can game it by mostly ignoring UH runes and force refresh death and frost ones. Played like that, it's essentially the same as macroed BT (well, at least if you are DW) - I think someone did the sims a while ago.

I'm pretty sure those sims showed BT was still more dps than RE.

[Deleted]

The only issue is that barely anyone uses RE. The tier itself is good because it allows for customization, you can regen your runes how you want them to be regened.

No-one uses RE because its like BT but BT gives a death rune, RE needs to be changed imo.

[Taninsam]

You misunderstand. I wasn't saying that pooling resources for burst is useless. It obviously can be quite valuable indeed. My argument is as follows.

1) Blood Tap can only "pool" two runes, and can only hold them for a very limited period of time before you cap charges. This is a very limited amount of burst, and it can only be held for a very short window.

2) If you mess up at any time and cap charges, you will lose substantial damage versus macroing BT (or just using RC).

3) The very small amount of theoretical performance gained from timing burst on two whole runes isn't worth the attention tradeoff. Even perfect execution won't get you much gain, and very few people can perfectly execute anything while also playing their character and staying out of the fire. Your timing argument requires not just perfect execution on Blood Tap itself, but also thinking ahead through a ~10s time window whether you should delay using Blood Tap while also not capping charges. I find that unlikely.

Unlikely, but not impossible. Maybe you're an elite player, and you can perfectly execute that. You'll gain some performance. How much is difficult to quantify, which is why I asked you to substantiate it. But even if you could, it wouldn't apply to most players, because they would not maintain perfect execution, particularly with that timing window, while also not standing in the fire. I know I couldn't do it.

Let's see.

Yes, "just" two runes can be pooled at max (2.4 runes to be exact), but clearly that's not where the power of this ability lies. What's important is how you can build charges, even when out of boss range, and use them whenever you want (25 secs is not that short). Let me give you an example: on heroic Garrosh, you need to get out of range for empowered whirling corruption. While this ability is being cast, you won't be able to frost strike. If you are using macroed BT, you can't use your blood charges to hit Garrosh from afar with HB. You won't even be able to use all that RP you'll be AMS soaking with Death Coil (more charges = more HBs), and you'll be wasting a lot of time waiting for your death and frost runes to come off CD. It's not a small difference. As you say, we're always moving, trying to stay out of fire, killing this or that add, having to stand in front of some bosses on certain moments, etc - and that's were you gain the dps choosing what to hit.

About timing, if you are a heroic raider, you know timing is not just important - it's paramount for a great performance, especially for us dks which need to know exactly when we are going to be able to soak. And yes, if you are not timing your AMS, chances are you won't be timing your blood charges and taps, and that will result on a dps loss for sure - not arguing with that.

It's impossible to provide hard data (since it's impossible to sim and artificially replicate such intricate mechanics), but I hope that helps.