Lets Talk About Talent Tier 75

[SRF]

That's why I always propose making RC baseline, removing RE from the game, and then changing BT to be non-macroable, buffing it, and putting it on a tier with two other compelling competing talents.

I like that idea.

I've always used BT manually and it is not difficult at all with a properly setup UI. The first few sessions were difficult, but I liken it to driving a standard car. Having said that - for many fights I would just take RC (UH) because proper play just isn't rewarded to a point that you notice it. You can't really FEEL it. That whole talent tier feels boring to me and worse, your choice doesn't feel like it really matters.

[Kraeth]

As if he even had any left after claiming that death knights are fine in t16 and just lack encounters to shine on.

Can't help but agree, especially when they buffed frost and UH like two weeks after the statement.

[Maxweii]

Can't help but agree, especially when they buffed frost and UH like two weeks after the statement.

He quite possibly have already had his hands on that build and was talking in the perspective of that. Especially when you consider were on a decent spot since then (or well frost us bottom melee but Unholy is upper middle pack)

[Schizoide]

Nah. That happens all the time. Their reflex response is "you're fine", so players don't get their hopes up-- any hint of a buff will lead to hurt feelings if it doesn't come. Then they either buff or don't. It's not hard to emphasize with why they do that, although it can be frustrating from the players' side.

If you notice, any time they talk about a possible buff, you can take it to the bank-- that buff is coming. They won't say a word until it's confirmed. They learned that lesson long ago.

[Shiira]

I'm not going to give celestalon the benefit of the doubt until he demonstrates that he knows anything about this class.

edit: He could at least have mentioned that the possibility of the class underperforming was being investigated without making any promises, but he chose not to. This calls into question whether blizzard think that balancing the game is more important than convincing the community that the game is balanced already. I'd rather know what the devs are up to, I can manage my expectations and I can view our situation objectively enough to know when we need help.

[Schizoide]

edit: He could at least have mentioned that the possibility of the class underperforming was being investigated without making any promises, but he chose not to. This calls into question whether blizzard think that balancing the game is more important than convincing the community that the game is balanced already. I'd rather know what the devs are up to, I can manage my expectations and I can view our situation objectively enough to know when we need help.

I'm sure you can, and I can. We're enlightened individuals, am I right? Men of the world. We have our heads on straight!

But the unwashed teeming masses, the peasants, how would they take a "your class may be underperforming" tweet followed by no buff? Revolt! Torches and pitchforks!

And that's why they don't say anything until it's 100%. There's no indication that Celestalon is incompetent, although I do honestly question whether he understands that Frost DKs ignore Killing Machine. He's just covering his ass.

Occasionally he posts things that I /boggle at. But in the <140 characters in Twitter, there's no room to elaborate. There may be extenuating circumstances or cogent arguments why GCD-locking is OK for some specs, or why the shaman L45 talent tier is OK, or why subtlety retains a positional attack, or the crazy new shadow priest mastery, or why frost DKs ignoring a major spec mechanic like Killing Machine is OK, or why they treat hunters as melee, or why MW monks in serpent stance are treated as melee by bosses, or any of 1000 other /boggle-worthy issues, and we just don't know them. Or we may just disagree-- disagreement is possible between adults without one of them being incompetent or a troll.

I think he's wrong about all of these things, but I don't think he holds these positions because he's trying to sabotage the game, or he hates a certain class, or an incompetent tool, or just an asshole. He either lacks information/context or he legitimately disagrees. Either way, player consensus and solid arguments can change his mind.

On some stuff, anyway. We ain't flying in draenor. /spit

[Shiira]

I don't know, maybe they assume it wasn't underperforming after all? Can they even tell either way?

How am I supposed to take it when I know that the class is underperforming, but I'm told by the person in the best position to fix the problem that the class is fine?

How much trust in blizzard am I supposed to have when I can't tell if they're intentionally lying to the community or if they just have no idea what they're doing?

This entire post is a series of questions, I apologise for this.

[bals]

If they gave a shit about balancing the game they would have did something about the drastic dps differences in specs and classes.
and also have skills behave differently in pvp.
hopefully the stat squish will make things easier to balance
although I'm holding my breath that adding in things like multistrike will make it more difficult cause, you know, rng.

[Shiira]

Yeah, blizzard are really going to have to impress me during beta to convince me to buy the expansion.

I don't have any expectations yet.

[Kraeth]

He quite possibly have already had his hands on that build and was talking in the perspective of that. Especially when you consider were on a decent spot since then (or well frost us bottom melee but Unholy is upper middle pack)

That's the thing, we had no knowledge of incoming buffs. And I'm pretty sure those buffs weren't just discussed and done in that short a period of time. So a. He knew about the buffs, but lied. Or b. He didn't know about the buffs, which means they have no idea what the hell they're doing with the DK class.

Nah. That happens all the time. Their reflex response is "you're fine", so players don't get their hopes up-- any hint of a buff will lead to hurt feelings if it doesn't come. Then they either buff or don't. It's not hard to emphasize with why they do that, although it can be frustrating from the players' side.

If you notice, any time they talk about a possible buff, you can take it to the bank-- that buff is coming. They won't say a word until it's confirmed. They learned that lesson long ago.

While I don't work in customer service or within any kind of community I can relate to the problem, or rather the definition of a 'promise'. All they had to say is that they've received DK feedback and concerns, we're gonna look into it. I know for some people that means OMG BUFFS INC but it's way better that pretty much going 'you're fine, stop whining.' Add that to your mention about KM and some of the recent statements about T75... Yeah, I'm not really sold about their DK agenda right now, to be honest.

(Really OT but the relation is that my nephews take even the slightest cue about sleepover at my place as a promise. Actually, pretty accurate depiction of the WoW community.)

[Naiattavain]

To OP

a point of view from a skilled player; I would rather have choice and flexibility with tier 75 than a fixed decision, forced based on spec. Truth to your scrap. discussions like this only destroy your favorite class. the Death Knight platform is entirety outstanding.

[Erishkigal]

To OP

a point of view from a skilled player; I would rather have choice and flexibility with tier 75 than a fixed decision, forced based on spec.

But you don't have that atm

[Deleted]

Tier 75 does offer a choice. It's just a meaningless one.
I'd even prefer them to remove the tier and give everyone the worst of them for each spec (like re for blood or rc for frost) but in return actually get a meaningful talent row, because what really upsets people is not the tier itself, but losing a whole talent tier for something so pointless.

[Schizoide]

But you don't have that atm

This adroitly illustrates the difference between a skilled player and a theorycrafter.

[valliant13]

Tier 75 does offer a choice. It's just a meaningless one.
I'd even prefer them to remove the tier and give everyone the worst of them for each spec (like re for blood or rc for frost) but in return actually get a meaningful talent row, because what really upsets people is not the tier itself, but losing a whole talent tier for something so pointless.

Honestly if we are going to have empty GCD's in WoD, why not bring the old Rune system back but make Runes regenerate slower and have haste effect the rune flow, just not as much as it does now. This way they can get rid of the entire tier, not piss people off about making one baseline and give us a meaningful tier before the lvl 100 tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, blizzard are really going to have to impress me during beta to convince me to buy the expansion.

I don't have any expectations yet.

I have a beta key, and my decision won't be made until close to the release date...The beta needs to impress me a lot for me to buy warlords. It's actually the first expansion I haven't even been remotely excited for after the hype after blizzcon wore down. Most of it is due to lack of new information since blizzcon as well as the fall release date. Luckily I had hand surgery two months ago and haven't really been able to play wow until yesterday(kind of just tested waters), however anyone who is stuck doing Siege for over a year I feel bad for especially the ones who are clearing 14/14H week after week just to keep their raid spot. Between the no vision of this class, lies of balance early in the tier, and siege for a year I have lost almost all interest in wow...However it's sad that I find challenge mode dungeons more fun than the current raid tier, simply because it's already been going on for much too long.

[Schizoide]

Hey, the alpha/beta is actually open? Or did you go to PAX east?

Grats on the key!

[Maxweii]

Hey, the alpha/beta is actually open? Or did you go to PAX east?

Grats on the key!

More then likely it's just a key from PAX east otherwise we would have gotten a flood of info from youtubers/sites/ect.

[Erishkigal]

This adroitly illustrates the difference between a skilled player and a theorycrafter.

Whats the skill difference between macro'd BT/RE/RC? There isn't any.

The only skill in that tier is un macro'd blood tap.

[valliant13]

Hey, the alpha/beta is actually open? Or did you go to PAX east?

Grats on the key!

Went to Pax East. Overall loved the way the opening zone looked and the squish, otherwise didn't get to play long enough.

[Schizoide]

Whats the skill difference between macro'd BT/RE/RC? There isn't any.

The only skill in that tier is un macro'd blood tap.

Yes, exactly.

I was talking about the guy you were responding to. He claimed to be a skilled player, and I have little doubt he's in a heroic progression guild. But he isn't a theorycrafter, so while he performs well, he doesn't know why. With FAQs and whatnot you don't need to know the mechanics. But at the same time, those people have little to contribute to a theorycrafting discussion.