Lets Talk About Talent Tier 75

[Schizoide]

Just add Blood Tap to your Death Coil macro too. Works fine.

Timing (really burst) is occasionally important in PvE, but the small potential gain is eclipsed by the likely loss when you mess it up. If you're an awesome player and know you won't mess it up, cool, go for it. But it's bad advice for the general public.

[Bladeborn]

I would love to have this problem solved and to have an entire free row of talents!

This is my solution:

Make Blood Tap, Runic Empowerment, and Runic Corruption into secondary runeforging Enchantments that can be applied (singularly) in conjunction with the already available Runeforge enchants.

(probably a good idea to not require to be near a runeforge for these secondary rune enchants, but that would be blizz's choice ultimately).

Visually, perhaps, make them combine with the other Runeforge effects - creating unique weapon visuals (depending upon which Runeforge + secondary Runeforge ones uses) Would be cool as hell IMO to see DKs with glowing weapons based on the rune combinations they choose. I mean, isn't that the main schtick with DKs anyways? Our runes?

[Clash the DK]

Tying the rune regeneration abilities (BT,RE,RC) to our actual runeforges is an interesting idea. Although I am really looking forward to seeing Cinderglacier become a viable option and pairing that up with Razorice. But, I do hate the rune regeneration abilities taking up precious space in our talent grid.


I wonder if a better option would be to tie them to our Presences in some fashion:

Blood Presence could provide Blood Tap along with the normal defensive-oriented bonuses. Furthermore, I would like to see BT revised to behave a little more similar to our old Blood Tap ability. It could have 2 charges, each on a "X" second cooldown. And every use of BT would give 2 Death Runes. Simple and effective. I think this full package would be preferable to what they are planning with the new Rune Tap.

Frost Presence could provide Runic Empowerment and the 20% bonus to RP generation. FP would no longer reduce the RP cost of FS.

Unholy Presence could provide Runic Corruption and the 20% bonus to Haste.


The idea is that FP/RE and UP/RC would be the equally viable options for DPS while BP/BT would be the tanking/PvP option. The current problem in PvP where we have to switch to BP to survive and lose a ton of resources would be remedied. The exact bonus %'s would need to be mathed out better OR they could be changed altogether to make both FP and UP more desirable for both Frost and Unholy. But, I think this particular type of arrangement could work. What do you all think about this idea?

[OneSent]

Personally, I think the rune system should go back to how it was in Cataclysm. It worked fine and there wasn't a whole lot of fuss about it.

Never thought I'd say that, considering I was literally cursing the rune mechanic change when it went live in 4.0. I still hate it compared to the Wrath model, but Tier 75 makes me actually appreciate what we had Cata.

Tier 75 has felt like nothing more than pointless flavoring to an already heavily-involved system. My rune generation is not something I want to have to devote any more thought to than is already required. And our runes already require more attention than most other resource systems.

All three talents basically do the same thing, in slightly different ways; none of which actually add any depth to the original system. Runic Empowerment should just return as being a passive/baseline for all three specs, and Blood Tap should be changed back into it's original form.

I'll honestly never understand what they were trying to accomplish with our runes in the first place, and I don't think they'll ever achieve the full potential of what the class could play like. I always compare playing a DK to that of a game of whack-a-mole; just keep mashing away and it'll eventually pay off.

[SlippyCheeze]

I'll honestly never understand what they were trying to accomplish with our runes in the first place, and I don't think they'll ever achieve the full potential of what the class could play like. I always compare playing a DK to that of a game of whack-a-mole; just keep mashing away and it'll eventually pay off.

I think they were building a class that focuses on complex resource management, coupled with simple abilities. There is rarely a time when you don't know the "best" button to push, or have multiple competing buttons with equal value, as a DK. On the other hand, you focus on resource management in a way that pretty much no other class does.

Contrast that with monks: their resources are stupid-simple, and take almost no attention. When you have that chi, though, you spend it ... on, what, one of three equally valuable things? So you have to keep up all your defensive or offensive buffs, and balance out the various mechanisms. BM Monks are the peak of that; balance out maintaining the damage spreader, and removing it when it gets too high, and other defensives, all competing for the same simple resource.

So, yeah, DK: complex resources, and that is probably a good thing. I know that I prefer to manage the resources rather than the difficult choices between which ability to use. I am sure plenty of people prefer the reverse, or BM Monk wouldn't be so popular after the 15% nerf, but having the variety is great.

[Schizoide]

I think they were building a class that focuses on complex resource management, coupled with simple abilities.

Yes, a blue came out and outright said this-- I believe it was GC during MoP beta. I refer to that quote fairly often in these forums.

[Shiira]

I hope they plan on actually giving us some complex resource management to do then.

[OneSent]

I think they were building a class that focuses on complex resource management, coupled with simple abilities.

Ah. When put that way, it does make perfect sense and even gives me a new found appreciation for our resource system.

I have to admit, I'd much rather watch my runes than have to stare at my actionbars, trying to juggle several individual cooldowns going on simultaneously.

I guess I had forgotten why I originally fell in love with this class.

[Unholyground]

Still I think the idea some of us had to make the rune regen talents as secondary rune forges is the best idea and it would be sad if Blizzard did not even consider this.

[Wrien]

What about making presences fun instead of forcing us into one like it used to be:

- Remove improved presences (at least for UH and Frost)
- Frost Strike cost reduced by 5 (because of the change to Frost presence)

Frost Presence
Increases Runic Power Regeneration by 20% and reduces the cost of Frost Strike, Death Coil and Rune Strike by 10, and reducing the duration of effects that remove control of your character by 20%.


Unholy Presence
Increases Haste and movement speed by 20%

[Shiira]

There's very little that can be done with presences that isn't going to result in there being a correct presence to be in.

[Schizoide]

There's very little that can be done with presences that isn't going to result in there being a correct presence to be in.

Sure there is, you just make them situational, ensure that none of them offers single-target damage increase (except for the tank, that's OK) and add a cooldown so people don't feel like they should be constantly switching. Assume that the old presence effects are just baked in to each spec.

Please don't nitpick specifics on these, that's why I didn't give any numbers. They're just examples of how presences could offer real gameplay and not be theorycrafted/simmed into "you should always use X".

Frost Presence (aka "Cleave presence")
30 sec cooldown
Strengthens you with the presence of Frost, causing your Rune Strike, Death Coil, and Frost Strike abilities to deal X% of their damage to all other enemies within 8 yards and your Breath of Sindragosa talent to cost Y less Runic Power per second.

Unholy Presence (aka "PvP & AE Survivability presence")
30 sec cooldown
You are infused with unholy fury, increasing movement speed by A%, reducing the duration of effects that remove control of your character by B%, and reducing damage taken from Area of Effect attacks by C%. Damaging other players in PvP combat has a D RPPM chance to refresh a completely discharged rune as a Death rune.

Blood Presence (aka "Tank Damage & DPS Survivability presence")
30 sec cooldown

(Blood spec)
You assume the presence of Blood. Your Heart Strike deals quadruple damage and enemies take E% of your Blood and Rune Shields as damage when they strike you.

(Unholy spec)
You assume the presence of Blood. Shadow Infusion and Dark Transformation heals you and your ghoul for F% of your maximum health over 8 sec. This effect stacks 5 times.

(Frost spec)
You assume the presence of Blood. You gain a glacial shield for G% of your maximum health for every Frost or Death rune you spend. Lasts 10 sec.

[bals]

They have pretty much removed stance dancing from warriors.
there is no need to add it to dks.

[Schizoide]

Ain't no dancin' with a 30 second cooldown, friend.

If we're supposed to just stick to our stance, why not remove them? Seem like obvious targets for the very aggressive pruning Blizzard is so excited about (and players not so excited).

[SSHA778]

Still I think the idea some of us had to make the rune regen talents as secondary rune forges is the best idea and it would be sad if Blizzard did not even consider this.

Yeah, let me hold up my raid to pop open a Death Gate to change my rune tier pick. And not to mention the confusion for DW players.

Runeforges are fine as they are. The rune tier is fine as it is; there is no consensus on what to baseline because either a) people strongly prefer only a single option, or b) people enjoy (and deem necessary, since many alternatives are being introduced that still allow you to pick) the ability to switch between options.

I simply cannot understand why people think this tier is bad other than the fact that it exists as a tier. Numerically it is without a doubt the most closely balanced tier in the game that affects your DPS.

There's very little that can be done with presences that isn't going to result in there being a correct presence to be in.

I agree. You can easily make one presence the "AoE" presence, and one the "ST" presence, but to make them equal in all/most scenarios is not feasible without very lengthy and complicated tooltips.

The reason? The inequality in the value of runes and RP for each of the (sub-)specs.

Not to mention, since you all seem to have a severe hostility toward the rune tier (because all options lead to roughly the same DPS), why should I assume that you will have a different response with presences if they are equally numerically balanced? Thus, from a developer's standpoint, why should I even bother to remove my primary spec-tuning knobs to replace them with an option that limits my flexibility even more?

[zoomgpally]

It's being dropped to level 60 in WoD, yes.

Most DKs hate the rune regen tier, primarily because it's not a real choice.

The devs love it. Nobody knows why.

I believe most people hate it because they want better choices.

Having one of the level 75 talents is still a requirement for not feeling like a snail...

[Unholyground]

Yeah, let me hold up my raid to pop open a Death Gate to change my rune tier pick. And not to mention the confusion for DW players.

Runeforges are fine as they are. The rune tier is fine as it is; there is no consensus on what to baseline because either a) people strongly prefer only a single option, or b) people enjoy (and deem necessary, since many alternatives are being introduced that still allow you to pick) the ability to switch between options.

I simply cannot understand why people think this tier is bad other than the fact that it exists as a tier. Numerically it is without a doubt the most closely balanced tier in the game that affects your DPS.

So a talent that is required to match other classes DPS is good design? I will say no to that with their new talent design philosophy. Also if your raid can't wait 2 minutes for you to change something then they are assholes period.

[Shiira]

Blizzard's new talent design philosophy doesn't work, every class still has talents that are important for their damage and this isn't changing.

[SSHA778]

So a talent that is required to match other classes DPS is good design?

I fail to see your point.

DKs will not have a rune tier choice until L60 in WoD, meaning they will be missing it from 55-59. The game is not balanced around these levels, so this is a non-issue.

To say the talent is required to match other DPS is misleading. You weren't going to -not- choose a talent in the tier (leave it vacant), so why does it matter if this tier contributes a significant portion of your DPS (because you're going to choose one of them anyway)? It would be a completely different story if only one of the talent choices in this tier brought your DPS up to par, but all three of them do.

[Unholyground]

I fail to see your point.

DKs will not have a rune tier choice until L60 in WoD, meaning they will be missing it from 55-59. The game is not balanced around these levels, so this is a non-issue.

To say the talent is required to match other DPS is misleading. You weren't going to -not- choose a talent in the tier (leave it vacant), so why does it matter if this tier contributes a significant portion of your DPS (because you're going to choose one of them anyway)? It would be a completely different story if only one of the talent choices in this tier brought your DPS up to par, but all three of them do.

I just think it feels stale as a talent choice in the end when there's so many more things they could do, heck even if they had a secondary effect each that would be cool.