Hearthstone legendaries, too overpowered

[Adrim]

Current meta has mostly hunters. That is probably where you need to start if you want to nerf things.

Not in a thread titled "Hearthstone Legendaries", no.

But incidentally, the reason the current meta favors hunters is they are good at early game kills before most legendaries are even playable.

[kaiadam]

Not in a thread titled "Hearthstone Legendaries", no.

But incidentally, the reason the current meta favors hunters is they are good at early game kills before most legendaries are even playable.

Hmm? Currently the most popular hunter by far is the archetype piloted by Kolento to #1 NA/EU. Incidentally, it's a control/midrange deck which uses 0 legendaries, go figure.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Most of the top ranked decks use 4 legendaries tops. The only exception to this was the recent control warrior which used 6 or 7. Most only use 1 or 2.

Legendaries are overpriced CC fodder. If you didn't save a CC/hard remove for late game, you're bad. Either your opponent forced you to use it early, meaning you weren't able to counter pressure him, or you're just trigger happy with CC's, which is a rookie mistake. Watching my opponent CC a taz'dingo is one of the most satisfying feelings, quickly followed by dropping a rag later that game. The other most satisfying feeling is CCing an opponent's rag/ysera/whatever.

[Adrim]

Hmm? Currently the most popular hunter by far is the archetype piloted by Kolento to #1 NA/EU. Incidentally, it's a control/midrange deck which uses 0 legendaries, go figure.

Go re-read what I wrote. I said one of the reasons the current meta favors hunters is because they are good at killing people before most legendaries are even playable. In other words, yes, control/midrange decks. If you can reliably kill your opponent before 7 mana then you don't have to worry about how OP certain legendaries are.

[kaiadam]

There seems to be a disconnect here. That specific hunter deck is itself a midrange/control type which aims for kills well after turn 7.

[Adrim]

There seems to be a disconnect here. That specific hunter deck is itself a midrange/control type which aims for kills well after turn 7.

I guess the disconnect is that it does depend on the opposing class. Healing classes are much tougher for hunters to kill before Turn 7, true.

But against a non-healing class, by round 5 or 6 it's probable the hunter has done at least 10 damage with hero power is are sitting on at least another 10 in unavoidable damage (traps, hero power, Kill Command, buffed hounds) from the UTH card draw. That means they only need to have done about 10 minion/misdirect/weapon damage over the course of the previous 5 or 6 rounds to have their opponent within lethal.

I would disagree that any hunter deck "aim" for a late game. Not like say, Handlocks who purposely delay things as long as possible to get max value from Shadowflame and then drop giants or the stall mage who wants to delay to 10 for a double Pyroblast or Fireball/Fireball/Frostbolt closer.

[Raysz]

You balance around the optimal play, not around the guy who turn one coins a frostbolt to the face. How much should we buff frostbolt's damage so that terrible play actually has value?

Yes people spamming emotes is annoying, especially if they're not a particularly good player, or if they happened to top deck the perfect answer to your play. Assholes gonna be assholes, has nothing to do with legendary strength, and the best way to counter that is by getting better and steamrolling the bads so they never get the opportunity to gloat.

Not sure what your point is here. You mean the game shouldn't be balanced around the lower half skill wise? It should not, but it also shouldn't be balanced around the top 10%.

[Gumboy]

You could almost say, they are......legendary!

[Mormolyce]

No, you can silence them, you can destroy them, you can steal them, you can do so much in this game...

By that logic a 1 mana 100/100 card with taunt and divine shield is not OP because derp removal derp derp.

- - - Updated - - -

some legendaries in particular scenarios make or break a game. when the numbers swing your way, those legendaries make a difference.

Rag, Leeroy, Ysera, hell ive seen hogger mess people up badly.

I think that is not in itself a problem, being situationally awesome is what makes a Legendary legendary.

Being awesome in all circumstances is what makes the OP ones OP.

- - - Updated - - -

About half of them.

Dunno about that. I think we all just conveniently ignore the shit ones.

Is this all?

Available to all classes

Alexstraza
Baron Geddon
The Beast
The Black Knight
Bloodmage Thalnos
Cairne Bloodhoof
Captain Greenskin
Deathwing
Elite Tauren Chieftain
Gelbin Mekkatorque
Gruul
Harrison Jones
Hogger
Illidan Stormrage
King Mukla
Leeroy Jenkins
Lorewalker Cho
Malygos
Millhouse Manastorm
Nat Pagle
Nozdormu
Old Murk-Eye
Onyxia
Ragnaros the Firelord
Sylvanas Windrunner
Tinkmaster Overspark
Ysera

Class-specific

Al'Akir the Windlord (Shaman)
Archmage Antonidas (Mage)
Cenarius (Druid)
Edwin VanCleef (Rogue)
Grom Hellscream (Warrior)
King Krush (Hunter)
Lord Jaraxxus (Warlock)
Prophet Velen (Priest)
Tirion Fordring (Paladin)

Which are OP? Let's all agree.

[fiestatastic]

So because you don't have good cards you don't want anybody else to be able to use their good cards? what's next, nobody can use anything but the basic deck with no modifications because you don't think its fair they have commons and rares you don't?

That's not flawed logic ....

they should either be restricted, or there should be deck ilvl and players of similar ilvl should be matched accordingly. They don't group lvl 90's with 80's in random bg's in WoW.

[Fluorescent0]

That's not flawed logic ....

they should either be restricted, or there should be deck ilvl and players of similar ilvl should be matched accordingly. They don't group lvl 90's with 80's in random bg's in WoW.

Matchmaking uses MMR in casual and rank in ranked, that's better than 'deck ilvl' or whatever is that. Not to even consider the fact that two of the most used decks at the moment (zoo and midrange hunter) don't use any legendary or epic. (in their basic versions, some modified for being more aggressive do)

[Fleckens]

I guess the disconnect is that it does depend on the opposing class. Healing classes are much tougher for hunters to kill before Turn 7, true.

But against a non-healing class, by round 5 or 6 it's probable the hunter has done at least 10 damage with hero power is are sitting on at least another 10 in unavoidable damage (traps, hero power, Kill Command, buffed hounds) from the UTH card draw. That means they only need to have done about 10 minion/misdirect/weapon damage over the course of the previous 5 or 6 rounds to have their opponent within lethal.

I would disagree that any hunter deck "aim" for a late game. Not like say, Handlocks who purposely delay things as long as possible to get max value from Shadowflame and then drop giants or the stall mage who wants to delay to 10 for a double Pyroblast or Fireball/Fireball/Frostbolt closer.

You're not even talking about the same deck that he is. You're talking about the rush hunter deck, he's talking about the midrange/control one where games rarely are won by turn 7.

[kail]

Ironically, hunter decks atm are going legendary free up to legendary rank. But that's another issue based on how broken hunters are.

[Nerfarien]

I have few legs on my own, but now I play a hunter deck which neglects all of them, which was just recently invented ( not the CHARGE FORWARD type) and I laughs as my Doge runs into a Hunters Marked Ysera/Rag to piss off my opponent really badly.
To sum it up: Legs are not what wins you the game, rather the clever management of your own resources.

[Deleted]

I have few legs on my own, but now I play a hunter deck which neglects all of them, which was just recently invented ( not the CHARGE FORWARD type) and I laughs as my Doge runs into a Hunters Marked Ysera/Rag to piss off my opponent really badly.
To sum it up: Legs are not what wins you the game, rather the clever management of your own resources.

You mean abusing underpriced BS cards like half of the hunter removal? Wow, such balance indeed! "See guys, legendaries are nothing special! You just have to use some other cheese to win!".

[Nerfarien]

You mean abusing underpriced BS cards like half of the hunter removal? Wow, such balance indeed! "See guys, legendaries are nothing special! You just have to use some other cheese to win!".

I will not try to explain it to you, as you are this butthurt about legendaries as it is. Fine then, how about the streamers who went to legend rank with basic decks? Mages, shamans, easy shit as that, no hunters whatsoever: just KNOWING what to do and WHEN to do it and you are good to go. It all boils down to skill.

[Deleted]

I will not try to explain it to you, as you are this butthurt about legendaries as it is. Fine then, how about the streamers who went to legend rank with basic decks? Mages, shamans, easy shit as that, no hunters whatsoever: just KNOWING what to do and WHEN to do it and you are good to go. It all boils down to skill.

Trump went to legend with mage/shaman. What those 2 classes have in common is the ability to trade 1/1 with legendaries via Poly/Hex, plus the ladder being mostly druid(during his mage run) and control warrior/druid/zoo (during his shaman run)
Trump also went to legend with Zoo warlock, but I don't think that one counts since its based on facerush/warlock hero ability and not on skill(as Trump himself said).

Now back to Hunter. Hunter currently is insanely OP because they break the rule of trading cards with both Deadly Shot and Hunter's Mark. UTH forces a low number of opponent minions so Deadly Shot is more effective then intended( Deadly Shot is always meant to trade 1-1, but now it trades 1-1 with cards that against any other opponent would trade 2-1 at least). Also lets say you would deadly shot some paladin/shaman hero power mob, how's that for value?
Hunter's Mark is way too effective because normally its meant to offer a bad trade(1 enemy minion for 2 of your cards). For example the opponent has a 4/6 druid of the claw. You are meant to Hunter's Mark it and sacrifice a minion to kill it. What happens now is you Hunter's Mark something and you UTH a doggy(that even drew you a card potentially) and sacrifice that one. Or a 1/1 boar with charge(that also drew you a card because Buzzard).

Blizzard allows this because the hunter hero power has no board effect, and the class was proven to be shit without some OP component in it. To give you a more exact idea of why is it so OP, compare it to other hunter cards like Multi Shot(4 mana deal 6 split dmg) or Explosive Shot(5 mana, deal 5/2/2). Now imagine UTH(and the 2 removals that work so great with it) wasn't so OP and you'd need to use those(your entire turn ends, no cards drawn, potentially bad results).

[Deleted]

I will not try to explain it to you, as you are this butthurt about legendaries as it is. Fine then, how about the streamers who went to legend rank with basic decks? Mages, shamans, easy shit as that, no hunters whatsoever: just KNOWING what to do and WHEN to do it and you are good to go. It all boils down to skill.

You dare say things like "it boils down to skill" when abusing a hunter deck? How misguided are you exactly? And some legendaries are to strong regardless of whether or not you remove them the turn after. You hunters marked and dogged a Alex? Well good for you, you just traded 1,5 cards for an 8/8. Too bad she already dealt 15 damage or thereabouts to you merely by appearing on the field.
But whatever, keep believing that both all the legendaries are balanced and that hunter removal is somehow balanced. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

[Anuibus]

You dare say things like "it boils down to skill" when abusing a hunter deck? How misguided are you exactly? And some legendaries are to strong regardless of whether or not you remove them the turn after. You hunters marked and dogged a Alex? Well good for you, you just traded 1,5 cards for an 8/8. Too bad she already dealt 15 damage or thereabouts to you merely by appearing on the field.
But whatever, keep believing that both all the legendaries are balanced and that hunter removal is somehow balanced. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

The hunter would need to be in terrible shape if he was at 30 and you were at such high life totals on turn 9 that using alex for the damage was a better option. Alex will very rarely be able to do 15 damage unless you sat around doing nothing the entire game.

It may help to use more accurate examples, rather than best case scenario for alex that rarely happens outside freeze mage.

[Deleted]

The hunter would need to be in terrible shape if he was at 30 and you were at such high life totals on turn 9 that using alex for the damage was a better option. Alex will very rarely be able to do 15 damage unless you sat around doing nothing the entire game.

It may help to use more accurate examples, rather than best case scenario for alex that rarely happens outside freeze mage.

Actually that situation can happen in the warrior control vs aggro hunter matchup.