1. #2501
    Quote Originally Posted by CheeseSandwich View Post
    Remove flying from questing. No one is arguing for that. Forget that.

    Why is it that Blizz can only develoup content that takes multiple weeks to do refined to the ground? Why can't they, or why is it an impossibilty for them to make long lasting and engaging air game play?

    Why is restricting people to the same restraints as every competing MMO a good thing, rather than fine tuning the thing that makes WoW unique?

    And what is this nonsense about a 3 month cycle? Surely that must only apply when Blizz wants it to. During the last patch of MoP, the current live patch, they are gonna go close to 5x3 month cycles of no new content. What makes you think without flying this would be any better? Is it maybe they can cut dev costs?

    Isn't pouring resources into instanced content what they are doing now?? The major push of WoW recently is to raid, where is the incentive for me as a player to go into the world, if i can get everything through instances?

    Blizz set the parameters of the limits of gameplay, and when they remove one of the key components of gameplay in their game, simply for the sake of "You can skip quest mobs", it seems to many as a lack of imagination in how to push their design forward, and it smacks of resignation on the part of the WoW devs.
    It's clearly not a resignation. To live in some imaginary world where Blizzard didn't even contemplate the idea of designing flight-centered content is insane.

    If you want flight content that lasts as long as ground content, well you just blow up the world size by 300% right? And you put most everything indoors. And you build everything else on cliffs and mountains and terraces and structures.

    It quickly becomes NOT Warcraft right? It's this weird thing that looks nothing like what people imagine as Warcraft.


    And what if they want questing and exploration and world PvP to be RIGHT THERE with the other core pillars of WoW like raiding, dungeons, battlegrounds and arenas?

    What if they want those things to be challenging and rewarding and meaningful but they don't want to turn the game into some weird flying fantasy NOT Warcraft thing.


    I say again, you guys know deep down you're on the wrong side of this argument. If it doesn't work, all the other no-flying people will join you and Blizzard will change it back, but that requires you to actually try it.

    What if it does work though? What if WoD feels like a better, more complete, more engaging, more Warcraft-y experience?

    Then the game is better and everyone wins. We can't know until we try and at this point, no one has tried the whole picture.
    .

  2. #2502
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix View Post
    Correction: They're keeping you on the ground because it's cheaper to make 2 axis zones rather than 3 axis zones.

    Let's not pretend it's anything other than the desire for more money that's driving this cost-cutting filler expansion.
    You keep using a word you dont know the meaning of.
    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianWRA - 23/03/2014 View Post
    Seriously. Someone bookmark this. If we go all the way from 6.0 to 7.0 and there is never a paid Garrison feature on the blizzard store, I will go to the store, purchase a hat and film myself eating it.

  3. #2503
    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?
    One could argue that if those elite mobs and events were worth doing, no one would be flying over them. I still see heaps of calls for invite for Galleon, despite the gear he drops being obsolete, and despite the fact people can just fly over. Because he drops something that is worth the investment of time the player puts in. I really can't see the problem in adding ground events people flying would want to do.

  4. #2504
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheeseSandwich View Post
    True, but the length of the postponment is still undecided. Whether it will be postponed until the start of 6.1, or until the next expac, or later. Following recent events would lead one to think they are very much considering not having flight through out the length of WoD, hence the amount of disquiet.
    They haven't said anything because the expansion hasn't even made it into beta. They have months to decide how they want Flying to work still. No one *needs* to know now.

  5. #2505
    Pandaren Monk Tragedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flutterguy View Post
    This flying thing isn't enough to kill my desire to play the new expansion, but I just don't accept Bashiok's reasoning. They are either hiding their true reason(which I think revolves around the creation of art assets in future expansions) or they actually believe this which then makes me wonder who is running the asylum?

    I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but I would challenge Bashiok to first explain how the content as it is now isn't already trivial even with the flying removed.
    The WoD content won't be like MoP content, they are adding TI-like events in WoD zones.
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  6. #2506
    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    It's clearly not a resignation. To live in some imaginary world where Blizzard didn't even contemplate the idea of designing flight-centered content is insane.

    If you want flight content that lasts as long as ground content, well you just blow up the world size by 300% right? And you put most everything indoors. And you build everything else on cliffs and mountains and terraces and structures.

    It quickly becomes NOT Warcraft right? It's this weird thing that looks nothing like what people imagine as Warcraft.


    And what if they want questing and exploration and world PvP to be RIGHT THERE with the other core pillars of WoW like raiding, dungeons, battlegrounds and arenas?

    What if they want those things to be challenging and rewarding and meaningful but they don't want to turn the game into some weird flying fantasy NOT Warcraft thing.


    I say again, you guys know deep down you're on the wrong side of this argument. If it doesn't work, all the other no-flying people will join you and Blizzard will change it back, but that requires you to actually try it.

    What if it does work though? What if WoD feels like a better, more complete, more engaging, more Warcraft-y experience?

    Then the game is better and everyone wins. We can't know until we try and at this point, no one has tried the whole picture.
    It won't work and they 'will' change it back mid-expansion...In fact, they're probably designing the zones to be used with Flying from the start if enough pre-orders cancel.

    Let's be honest here: The only reason they're doing this no-flying bullshit is to save money. WoD is going to be a filler expansion designed solely to milk you sops for as much money as they can get.

    That's why you can buy your level 90s in WoD. That's why they're going to expand the in-game shop to include more stuff. That's why they're cutting corners with WoD development. That's why the Garrisons feature is such a half-assed piece of shit. That's why their vaunted 'new characters' look like they're straight out of a game from 2009.

    They're cutting corners, cutting options and adding all manner of 'micro-transactions' to the game in an effort to squeeze all of you for as much money as they can while the smart players are pulling a Ghostcrawler and abandoning this ship while they still can.

    It's all about money and nothing else. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better off everyone will be.
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  7. #2507
    Pandaren Monk Tragedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix View Post
    SNIP.
    I take it you work as Blizzard's accountant. Also what the hell is a "filler expansion".
    Black Lives Matter

  8. #2508
    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    I take it you work as Blizzard's accountant. Also what the hell is a "filler expansion".
    Do you know what 'filler' is?
    Garrosh: "LOK'TAR! HAVE A HAMBURGER."


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  9. #2509
    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    I take it you work as Blizzard's accountant. Also what the hell is a "filler expansion".
    Filler expansions are expansion that the given person does not like and there for is cheap content blizzard is making to gain money and milk people while they are making the real exapansion that 100% will follow the filler expansion. (or something like that :P)
    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianWRA - 23/03/2014 View Post
    Seriously. Someone bookmark this. If we go all the way from 6.0 to 7.0 and there is never a paid Garrison feature on the blizzard store, I will go to the store, purchase a hat and film myself eating it.

  10. #2510
    Elemental Lord Flutterguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    The WoD content won't be like MoP content, they are adding TI-like events in WoD zones.
    TI was pretty damn trivial unless you consider roaming bands of players murdering elites and rare mobs in clockwork fashion interesting content or rep grinding on said mobs somehow fulfilling on an entertainment level.
    Last edited by Flutterguy; 2014-04-29 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #2511
    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    It's clearly not a resignation. To live in some imaginary world where Blizzard didn't even contemplate the idea of designing flight-centered content is insane.

    If you want flight content that lasts as long as ground content, well you just blow up the world size by 300% right? And you put most everything indoors. And you build everything else on cliffs and mountains and terraces and structures.

    It quickly becomes NOT Warcraft right? It's this weird thing that looks nothing like what people imagine as Warcraft.


    And what if they want questing and exploration and world PvP to be RIGHT THERE with the other core pillars of WoW like raiding, dungeons, battlegrounds and arenas?

    What if they want those things to be challenging and rewarding and meaningful but they don't want to turn the game into some weird flying fantasy NOT Warcraft thing.


    I say again, you guys know deep down you're on the wrong side of this argument. If it doesn't work, all the other no-flying people will join you and Blizzard will change it back, but that requires you to actually try it.

    What if it does work though? What if WoD feels like a better, more complete, more engaging, more Warcraft-y experience?

    Then the game is better and everyone wins. We can't know until we try and at this point, no one has tried the whole picture.
    Insane, sure, right up until 6.1, apparently.

    Sure, that is one way of restricting flight to conform to ground quests. But what about quests like the racing quests in JF, egg collecting quests in NS, and mobile group quests like Death from Above? Surely a company as innovative and well funded as Blizz can think of extrapolations of these ideas, so once a person finished questing they could continue to have a meaningful end game experience, which included flying, without the need to enter an instance?

    World PvP can not be included in this argument, as many people have no desire to do it, as evidenced by the population of PvE servers.

    I agree, no one knows until they try it. All we have to go on is the information Blizz is feeding us, and people have a right to make up their minds based on that information. If Blizz felt a need to correct players or set their minds at ease, then that is up to them. ATM, to me, they are happy to let this thing bubble along as long as it distracts people from the lack of content in game now.
    But hey, I just went and got all editorial on you all, and I know how dangerous that is, so I'll leave it there.

  12. #2512
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?
    I think most everyone understands this even if they don't much like it. While I found Bashiok's essay about all of this quite entertaining and the rationale for not flying making for a better game convincing it didn't escape my notice that his primary example was invading a fortress, killing a lot of trash, finally getting to the boss and taking care of that, then more killing of trash on the way back out and that this would potentially be epic experience.

    My spidey sense tells me that the allure and epicality (not a word) of that sort of thing is going to wear thin very quickly. Especially for people with alts.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  13. #2513
    Who cares, you wont need flying anyways. Everything will be sit in the main cities and navigate menus to join.

  14. #2514
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I think most everyone understands this even if they don't much like it. While I found Bashiok's essay about all of this quite entertaining and the rationale for not flying making for a better game convincing it didn't escape my notice that his primary example was invading a fortress, killing a lot of trash, finally getting to the boss and taking care of that, then more killing of trash on the way back out and that this would potentially be epic experience.

    My spidey sense tells me that the allure and epicality (not a word) of that sort of thing is going to wear thin very quickly. Especially for people with alts.
    Absolutely. What they don't realize is that trying to artificially extend the content life is going to backfire even if people play through it all. With flying, people will blaze through the content prematurely. Without flying, people will burn out on content prematurely. Either way, if the core experience is trivial, people will unsubscribe early whether flying is included or not.

  15. #2515
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I think most everyone understands this even if they don't much like it. While I found Bashiok's essay about all of this quite entertaining and the rationale for not flying making for a better game convincing it didn't escape my notice that his primary example was invading a fortress, killing a lot of trash, finally getting to the boss and taking care of that, then more killing of trash on the way back out and that this would potentially be epic experience.

    My spidey sense tells me that the allure and epicality (not a word) of that sort of thing is going to wear thin very quickly. Especially for people with alts.
    Good point. It raised an interesting question in my head area.

    How many people keen for the no flying thing actually kills and enjoys all the mobs on the path to Ordos? Do you take your time and slay each one on the way, including respawns, because it makes Ordos more epic, or do you just mount ride past those fuckers until they leash and don't bother you anymore?

  16. #2516
    If flying is your make or break for playing WoW, then I don't really know what game you have been playing for the last few years. As someone I know said today about another game but it applies here: "Yet another consequence of people playing the game who don't really enjoy playing the game."

  17. #2517
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheeseSandwich View Post
    Good point. It raised an interesting question in my head area.

    How many people keen for the no flying thing actually kills and enjoys all the mobs on the path to Ordos? Do you take your time and slay each one on the way, including respawns, because it makes Ordos more epic, or do you just mount ride past those fuckers until they leash and don't bother you anymore?
    Beats me but I don't see a lot of posts or threads about how trash makes for epic raiding experiences. All things need to be balanced out. ToC was in its own way just as bad for a lot of people as some of the most trash-filled raids of past tiers. My main point is that sort of thing only goes so far and becomes more annoying than epic unless it's carefully thought out. I have my doubts that Blizzard really deeply understands this when their group-think gets enthusiastic about something. Sometimes mounting up on your bird when the job is done and flying away is exactly the right thing to do.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  18. #2518
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree View Post
    If flying is your make or break for playing WoW, then I don't really know what game you have been playing for the last few years. As someone I know said today about another game but it applies here: "Yet another consequence of people playing the game who don't really enjoy playing the game."
    Several months from now, in the new flightless areas, people will complain, "OMG, X,Y,Z takes FOREVER and there are barely REWARDS" and then unsub. If that is the outcome, that type of person may not have the intelligence to connect the dots. It has nothing to do with flying and everything to do with what flying affects.

  19. #2519
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia
    They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?
    If I see something interesting on TI, I don't just ride by. I stop and interact with it.
    I'd do the same when sitting on a Netherdrake, unless I was in a hurry, in which case I would run by the event either on my ground mount OR on a Taxi.

    Using your logic, a Taxi is even WORSE than a flying mount. If I see an interesting event down there I CAN'T EVEN STOP THAT THING IF I WANTED TO! I'm stuck until it reaches it's destination and by the time I got back ... the event would be long over.

  20. #2520
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I think most everyone understands this even if they don't much like it. While I found Bashiok's essay about all of this quite entertaining and the rationale for not flying making for a better game convincing it didn't escape my notice that his primary example was invading a fortress, killing a lot of trash, finally getting to the boss and taking care of that, then more killing of trash on the way back out and that this would potentially be epic experience.

    My spidey sense tells me that the allure and epicality (not a word) of that sort of thing is going to wear thin very quickly. Especially for people with alts.
    Not only will it wear thin very quickly, you have to ask realistically what % of quests are targetted hits? Thinking back on MoP questing, boss target quests MIGHT be 1 quest out of 5, and I actually think it is much much lower. Flying doesn't affect collects, drop collects, and kill X quests and a great many of kill "named mob" quests also include the requirement to kill X trash mob as well as "named mob".

    Bashiok's post was written to ridicule one side by making your typical kill "named mob X" quest sound like a glorious adventure. I am sure he could have written just as compelling a story that was built on the premise of taking your dragon to the skies to scout out the patterns of the guards and study the keep so you could figure out where to parachute into and still be able to get out blah blah. He also basically assumed that you would, be out of aggro after killing Named Mob X.

    Thinking back to say Hyjal in Cataclysm, I can think of very few to no quests in the entire line that allowed didn't require something a great deal more involved than flying over trash killing a single mob. In fact, I just went back and looked at the quest list on WoWWiki and there are in fact NO QUESTS of that type in the first 50 to 75. Looking over the list there are in fact zero quests that are mitigated by flight in any way other than speed of returning to the quest turn in and possibly respawns between you and the quest giver.

    The so-called "problems" that flight introduce are cherry-picked examples that are in no way representative of what a quest line looks like even in an expac that had flying right from the start. Looking at the Hyjal questline, you are basically reduced to objecting to the speed with which you can move from quest giver to quest objective and objecting to flying over trash that you can generally also either go around on the ground or plow through and leash the mobs.

    All of you people citing Bashiok's wonderful propaganda need to go back and LOOK at the lists of quests from zones to see just how seldom flying even has the possiblity of trivializing anything even in the Cataclysm zones and it certainly didn't "trivialize" a damned thing in Mists zones while you were levelling.

    There is no way in hell it took 7 years for Blizzard to "discover" these so-called problems with the quest experience. They "discovered" something and it has to do with reducing resource input from now to the end of WoW if they can get it away with shoving everyone on to the ground. The fact that they are not certain enough of themselves to announce what the hell they are up says to me that they are not truly commited to remove flying for the sake of the game but for the sake of dollars. You don't hedge when you know you're right and you don't wait 7 years to "fix" something as borked as they make out flying to be.

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