Bashiok Elaborates on No-Flying in WoD

[zorkuus]

Perhaps they have a better handle now on when subsets of WoW players are just blowing smoke and can be ignored.

You'd make a bad businessman.

Grasping at straws now, are we?

All I see is you didn't answer the question.

[Granyala]

So simply removing flying won't make archaeology better?

Hell no. Boring stuff stays boring, no matter how you travel to the location where you do that boring stuff.

[Osmeric]

It was a bad explanation because instead of making combat against non quest related mobs more fun & rewarding, they just take away your option to skip it and shove their precious combat in your face.

And this is why you're not a game designer. Games, as Bashiok explained, are defined by the limitations they impose. Players aren't handed an "I WIN" button. They are limited in what they can do, to make achieving the goal more interesting. It is NOT THE CASE that giving players more freedom is necessarily going to be a good thing.

[Osmeric]

You'd make a bad businessman.

Ignoring toxic customers is an important business skill.

All I see is you didn't answer the question.

The question was absurd and irrelevant. Removal of flying doesn't have to make archaeology more interesting in order to be justified. You were going "look! here's something that flying doesn't hurt, so flying should stay!" Reek of desperation, you do.

[Granyala]

And this is why you're not a game designer. Games, as Bashiok explained, are defined by the limitations they impose. Players aren't handed an "I WIN" button. They are limited in what they can do, to make achieving the goal more interesting. It is NOT THE CASE that giving players more freedom is necessarily going to be a good thing.

But I already HAVE the I-Win button. It's called: RAID GEAR.
There is no challenge, there is not even a reward, it's just time wasted.
Why on earth would I want to kill unnecessary outdoor non quest mobs as a raider?

[Musta]

But I already HAVE the I-Win button. It's called: RAID GEAR.
There is no challenge, there is not even a reward, it's just time wasted.
Why on earth would I want to kill unnecessary outdoor non quest mobs as a raider?

Thats why they never leave the city? OHHHH

[zorkuus]

Ignoring toxic customers is an important business skill.

Like I said a bad businessman.

You were going "look! here's something that flying doesn't hurt, so flying should stay!"

Nope, that was not it. Try again.

[Granyala]

Thats why they never leave the city? OHHHH

Pretty much. Unless I do a quest for rep there is 0 reason for me to venture out.

Also, to all you non flying defenders: Please answer this questions:

All the negative impacts of flight, esp. Bashioks example, were already prominent in TBC, when it was first implemented.
WHY on earth did Blizzard waste TONS of resources th CONVERT the old world into a flight compatible environment when it is so bad for their beloved quest design?
Why didn't they just say "Flight is unique to outland!" right away?
Why was flying o.k. for SEVEN YEARS and needs to die now all of a sudden?

[Deleted]

It was a bad explanation because instead of making combat against non quest related mobs more fun & rewarding, they just take away your option to skip it and shove their precious combat in your face.

Don't know about you, but if I were a game designer I'd rather want my clients to have fun that to limit their options.

Also their explanation is BS, because if flying really was THAT BAD for their design, they would have left it as an unique to outland thing and would have continued on the ground in Wrath.

Not necessarily. Wrath was clearly Blizzard's attempt to fully integrate flying into the game with zones like Storm Peaks and Ice Crown having a lot of flying content and with the planned (but scrapped) mounted combat system for flying mounts. Clearly that didn't work and in Mists and WoD they're restricting flying more and more, but aren't quite bold enough to scrap it entirely. The only anomaly is Cataclysm, however this can be explained by them wanting to allow flying in the old world for convenient travel times, but not wanting to make things disjointed by forbidding flying in the 80-85 zones.

[zorkuus]

Why was flying o.k. for SEVEN YEARS and needs to die now all of a sudden?

And why did they design whole zones with it in mind? Again Icecrown is a good example that they can make a flying zone and do it good. That's proof they can do it if they want to.

[godofslack]

And this is why you're not a game designer. Games, as Bashiok explained, are defined by the limitations they impose. Players aren't handed an "I WIN" button. They are limited in what they can do, to make achieving the goal more interesting. It is NOT THE CASE that giving players more freedom is necessarily going to be a good thing.

The majority of single player games have an I WIN button, be it god mode, inventory editing or no clip, but the thing is people don't use them, because skipping or trivializing well designed content is just something players usually don't do. Games have had cheats since before the internet is a thing and the majority of players don't use them even when aware because cheats remove content, and when the content is enjoyable people don't try to eliminate it, this is clearly not the case with WoW and flying mounts.

[Granyala]

Not necessarily. Wrath was clearly Blizzard's attempt to fully integrate flying into the game with zones like Storm Peaks and Ice Crown having a lot of flying content and with the planned (but scrapped) mounted combat system for flying mounts. Clearly that didn't work [...].

Okay, I can accept Wrath in that regard.

But Cata doesn't make any sense at all, since it must have cost them (multiple raid tiers *scnr*) to convert the whole of 2 rather huge continents.

[Deleted]

And why did they design whole zones with it in mind? Again Icecrown is a good example that they can make a flying zone and do it good. That's proof they can do it if they want to.

Simple. Flying was very popular so they tried to fully integrate it. It didn't work so they switched philosophies and have slowly been weaning us off flying ever since.

[Deleted]

Again Icecrown is a good example that they can make a flying zone and do it good.

It is a horrible zone.

[zorkuus]

Simple. Flying was very popular so they tried to fully integrate it. It didn't work so they switched philosophies and have slowly been weaning us off flying ever since.

Well it worked for one zone (atleast). But I guess it's easier to go the path of least resistance (not talking about what the playerbase has to say ofc but from a design pov).

It is a horrible zone.

Your opinion and you're entitled to it but in polls it has been among some of the most liked zones.

[Deleted]

Okay, I can accept Wrath in that regard.

But Cata doesn't make any sense at all, since it must have cost them (multiple raid tiers *scnr*) to convert the whole of 2 rather huge continents.

I thought they'd directly explained this in a blue post. IIRC they said that they redesigned the old world so that high level players could easily move over irrelevant content to the different zones - something I think we'd all agree on. Then they were stuck with the decision of disallowing flying in the 80-85 zones and risking making the experience feel disjointed, or allowing flying in all the zones with the associated game play risks. They took the latter, and seeing as they've been perfectly willing to section off small zones from flying in MoP, I'd say they felt they'd made a mistake.

[grexly75]

And why did they design whole zones with it in mind? Again Icecrown is a good example that they can make a flying zone and do it good. That's proof they can do it if they want to.

This bolded bit right there makes me wonder if they really do want to, and well only time will tell what is going on at Blizz..

[Granyala]

IIRC they said that they redesigned the old world so that high level players could easily move over irrelevant content to the different zones - something I think we'd all agree on.

Sorry, but that's what the portals in SW/Org were for. I seriously doubt that's their only reason for enabling flying.
Remember, the requests for flying in the old world were HUGE in number. It was basically one of the top 10 questions for years.

[Deleted]

Well it worked for one zone (atleast). But I guess it's easier to go the path of least resistance (not talking about what the playerbase has to say ofc but from a design pov).

Oh it can certainly work, I'm not denying that. But ultimately if every zone were to be fully designed with flying in mind, the design possibilities would be a lot less than the possibilities of zones without any flying. To fully integrate flying every zone and major quest line would have to require it to overcome certain obstacles, which means Blizzard would be stuck rehashing mountain zones, floating rocks and the odd airship section. Keeping the game grounded, so to speak opens up many more possibilities for environments and quest types and if Blizzard really wants a zone based around flying they could have special flight zones in the same vein as Vash'jir with the Seahorses.

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Sorry, but that's what the portals in SW/Org were for. I seriously doubt that's their only reason for enabling flying.
Remember, the requests for flying in the old world were HUGE in number. It was basically one of the top 10 questions for years.

Not just for getting to the new zones, but really the only purpose of flying in the old world is travel and exploration.

[Granyala]

Keeping the game grounded, so to speak opens up many more possibilities for environments and quest types and if Blizzard really wants a zone based around flying they could have special flight zones in the same vein as Vash'jir with the Seahorses.

I agree on this one. Question is: why don't they openly admit it that flight is ultimately too restrictive for zone design and try to sell it this way?
Why the constant "Players skip quest mobs -> BAAAAD!" Bullcrap?