Time to nerf echo of elements?

[Frieght]

http://i.imgur.com/eooDEVk.jpg

yeah that was through iron hawk as well.

what you got hit by was a proc, not an echo. He flame shocked ya, cast his LvB and during his cast he got a proc insta LvB and cast 2 at the same time. The third instance is most likely also an instance of said proc and not an echo. He got lucky that his flame shock proc'd his Insta LvB twice in a short period.

[Fearnor]

Its the general opinion of way too many ppl in many forums + players that i know through the game with 2,2k+ exp.Check for Lsd combo as well.Which drags the games till dumpening is way too high and get kills,if the elem doesnt burst simething down with the completly random burst from the proc or the back to back resets

[Stormspellz]

Its the general opinion of way too many ppl in many forums + players that i know through the game with 2,2k+ exp.Check for Lsd combo as well.Which drags the games till dumpening is way too high and get kills,if the elem doesnt burst simething down with the completly random burst from the proc or the back to back resets

yes its nick named dapmner cleave for a reason, but that isn't due to echo alone, just the mechanics of the comp and elementals chain lava surging, lava surge is silly anyone with a brain can see that, but if you are going to cry about something (like the op) at least know what to cry about.

[Illana]

what you got hit by was a proc, not an echo. He flame shocked ya, cast his LvB and during his cast he got a proc insta LvB and cast 2 at the same time. The third instance is most likely also an instance of said proc and not an echo. He got lucky that his flame shock proc'd his Insta LvB twice in a short period.

he didnt cast shit entire game, was all lava surge procs.

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As said, there's other things that could of been rather than an Echo of the Elements, and even without Echo, ele's mastery gives the chance to fire a second hit at 75% damage.
Also...couldn't you of just used Glyph of Mirrored Blades and popped det once he flame shocked you and you saw him casting? Even without the glyph, you'd take nothing from it, but with it you would of bounced it back.

how do i tell when I have to deterrence when its completely random? And no he wasn't casting, it was a proc.

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I got blade stormed for about 1.5x that in 2s, there's worse out there

bladestorm lasts 6 seconds, your own fault for standing in it for 6 seconds without doing anything.

Also I doubt bladestorm can do 250k damage.

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Spoken like a true huntard. You can do the same burst, without the rng.

yeah, how?. My chimera crits (we have about 41% crit) for 120k at most. Aimed shot maybe 90k on a mage without molten armour.

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I'd argue that is debatable.


1. ye it's not guaranteed to crit, but nor is lava burst guaranteed to proc echo (the chance that your stuff crits back to back is still higher than that lava burst procs echo)
2. I attempted to make a pic that explains how the globals works in WoW


The damage arrives within the time frame of the same global (since there is no travel time nor casting time), just like the damage of a lava burst that procs echo arrives in the same global. The difference is that chimera happens at the start of the global and Fire! at the end of the global (which is the same as the beginning of the next global). Or in other words: the second global starts after Fire! has done it's damage (instant aimed shot).

Edit: For an elemental shaman to do 105k lava bursts in iLvl 537 like the guy in your screenshot:
- he needs to play with unleash fury which leaves a debuff on you and a buff on him after unleashing
- or he needs tricks / clearcasting / trinket procs
Besides: clearcasting and unleash flame can be purged, unleashed fury debuff can be dispelled


Lava burst hits standard for like early 50k crit on a player target that has flame shock on it, without clearcasting / trinket / jade spirit procs and without unleashing.

he uses ele blast and is an orc. My guess is that it was just with orc racial and trinket/jade spirit up.

And no your diagram and theory is still wrong

it takes me 2 globals to fire chimera and aimed shot.

it was 1 lava surge lava burst that caused the damage in the screenshot.

Going by your logic the shaman used 0 globals to do that damage.

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Um...elemental shamans are tanky? Since when? All I remember ever hearing about them is how squishy they are, and you're missing the fact hunter has a lot more keep away than ele does

passive 10% damage reduction, highest armour in the game apart from holy paladins, nature's guardian, sham rage.

compared to:

passive 10% damage reduction, medium armour, deterrence x2 and then every 2-3 minutes afterward.

[zenga]

And no your diagram and theory is still wrong
it takes me 2 globals to fire chimera and aimed shot.
it was 1 lava surge lava burst that caused the damage in the screenshot.
Going by your logic the shaman used 0 globals to do that damage.

I wonder how hard it can be to understand basic math: the diagram is 100% accurate. The global cooldown in WoW kicks in AFTER a spell is fired. Since the spells are instant the damage happens the millisecond when the spell is fired. Chimera shot is fired and the dmg is instant, then the gcd kicks in. Then Fire!, once again instant and dmg, and then a new gcd kicks in. Meaning that there is 1 gcd between between chimera dmg and Fire! dmg. Or in other words, chimera at the start of the gcd and Fire! at the end of it. The fact that both spells trigger a gcd is different from the time frame the dmg happens.

Really if you fail to understand this once again, there is absolutely zero reason for discussion.

[Illana]

I wonder how hard it can be to understand basic math: the diagram is 100% accurate. The global cooldown in WoW kicks in AFTER a spell is fired. Since the spells are instant the damage happens the millisecond when the spell is fired. Chimera shot is fired and the dmg is instant, then the gcd kicks in. Then Fire!, once again instant and dmg, and then a new gcd kicks in. Meaning that there is 1 gcd between between chimera dmg and Fire! dmg. Or in other words, chimera at the start of the gcd and Fire! at the end of it. The fact that both spells trigger a gcd is different from the time frame the dmg happens.

Really if you fail to understand this once again, there is absolutely zero reason for discussion.

and theres no gap in between lava burst+echo+overload

so once again: you are wrong.

[Terahertz]

Um...elemental shamans are tanky? Since when? All I remember ever hearing about them is how squishy they are, and you're missing the fact hunter has a lot more keep away than ele does

Then you haven't been playing ele shamans lately. The fact alone that they use plate armoar AS WELL as the lightning shield glyph (passive 10% dmg reduction) makes them extremely tanky towards physical. Besides that they're -really- tanky versus casters as well since they can lock them down extremely easy with pressure and wind shears.

The only classes that can relatively bypass ele shaman tankiness are ww monks, dks and ferals I reckon. Besides that, their 10% dmg reduction combined with shamanstic every min as well as healing stream healing for about 10k every second, makes ele shamans really tanky compared to other classes.

Edit: Also, more food for thought regarding the hunter damage vs ele damage debate.

Like already mentioned, a hunter can, in one global, only do a chimera shot + auto attacks and pet attacks.

If we compare the absolute top damage of each hits compared to that of the ele shaman in OPs image, hunter actually does nearly the same damage.

Lets say the most crucial abilities crit, here goes: Chimera Shot (110k), Wild Quiver (10k), Auto Shot, (15k) Wild Quiver (10k), Serpent Sting (5k), pet auto attack (5k), pet ability (20k) = 175k in potentially one global.

Now keep in mind that hunter damage is consistent. After the chimera shot the hunter can easily fire off another ability, whether it be arcane shot or aimed shot. An ele shaman will have to cast UNLESS he gets another Lava Surge proc, in which case there will be another 70-80k LvB flying towards you. Then again, in that global the hunter could've fired the aimed shot, which could've procced another Wild Quiver hitting for 10k while his pet does another 20k crit.

[Coldhearth]

Hunters complaining about pvp right now? Seriously?

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Then you haven't been playing ele shamans lately. The fact alone that they use plate armoar AS WELL as the lightning shield glyph (passive 10% dmg reduction) makes them extremely tanky towards physical. Besides that they're -really- tanky versus casters as well since they can lock them down extremely easy with pressure and wind shears.

Ele shamans die in seconds to any competent DK, Warrior, or Rogue. Also, shamans don't wear plate.

[Deleted]

That Elemental wearing plate armor...

[Fearnor]

Shamans use mail armor but elem/resto has a shield as well,bringing the armor really close to plate and u forget the mastery of elem when u consider their dmg,they can easily do around 250-300k dmg with 1 instant cast even when u are behind the pillar from the back to back proccs.
P.S hunters are in a really good state atm,as there are the wars/mages/elem/rogues (from dps perspective only).

[Hand Banana]

Ele shamans die in seconds to any competent DK, Warrior, or Rogue. Also, shamans don't wear plate.

Yea no, they really don't though. You have mail with a shield, as much armor as a hpally (like 1% below not really worth noting), 10% passive DR, get a free 30% last stand even while cc'd (that also heals that 30%), and have sham rage to use while stunned if necessary. Even being stunlocked they will almost never die since you need to get through ~700k health with all that DR. Add that to healing stream (plus glyph against casters), groundings, wind shear, and offheals and they are very very tanky. Add that to decurse and tremors for their healers and they have a pretty strong survivability package. Can't really argue that.

[Deleted]

Shamans use mail armor but elem/resto has a shield as well,bringing the armor really close to plate and u forget the mastery of elem when u consider their dmg,they can easily do around 250-300k dmg with 1 instant cast even when u are behind the pillar from the back to back proccs.
P.S hunters are in a really good state atm,as there are the wars/mages/elem/rogues (from dps perspective only).

You perhaps forgot that other classes have passive dmg reduction, healing and health increasing abilities on top of strong defensive CDs on top of immunities and escape abilities.. which Elemental lacks.

[Lolretadin]

you just make yourself look dumber every time you try and counter one of my posts.

what you just outlined is at least 2 globals and isn't guaranteed to all crit unlike lava burst.

nerf it by making it 40% proc chance but duplicates it at 40% power, like their mastery.

but glad to hear its going in WoD.

I don't think you know how Echo of the Elements works. The chance for it to proc is sub 40%, fairly sure the actual proc chance is actually around 6%.
It's RNG, so it's unreliable. Anyone who isn't completely daft would be willing to take 2 GCD 200k damage over the unreliable RNG. Even then, as others have said, not many Ele Shaman that know what they're doing will take the Echo of the Elements talent.

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I also like how Illana is talking down to people that disagree with them when they are still in the 1600 bracket...

[Fearnor]

Most ppl here have low rating experience,its obvious from their answers and their perspective for the speccs/classes.
I dont understand either why they are attacking when u point out the obvious like they know everything,but its far from truth

[Illana]

I don't think you know how Echo of the Elements works. The chance for it to proc is sub 40%, fairly sure the actual proc chance is actually around 6%.
It's RNG, so it's unreliable. Anyone who isn't completely daft would be willing to take 2 GCD 200k damage over the unreliable RNG. Even then, as others have said, not many Ele Shaman that know what they're doing will take the Echo of the Elements talent.

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I also like how Illana is talking down to people that disagree with them when they are still in the 1600 bracket...

its 6%, I already mentioned that.

its RNG, not good gameplay, no skill.

it's 1 GCD 250k damage in that screen and I had a fulmination flying in the air in the next global as well which could have easily done another 50k

I like how my rating has no relevance to how broken this talent is currently.

[Blithe]

I love how everybody's complaining about how much of a tank 'Elemental' is because of their toolkit. Shaman are a support class and have been from day one, we're built to play good in 3's, and as such we fail to hold our own when we don't have another (or two others if it's 3's) to back us up. We have next to no self-survivability cooldowns compared to other classes, garbage crowd control and our survivability comes from active healing which in today's meta-game is horrible because it requires casting. We're also required to wear a shield to even come close to a Holy Paladin's physical damage reduction even with mail armour.

Balance is able to run around uncontrollable, shifting out of snares and slows while healing and nobody blinks an eye? Not to mention Starsurge can hit for upwards of 200,000; over half of what Lava Burst with cooldowns can achieve. Have I mentioned how they should be renamed to Restokin's with the absurd amount of healing they're able to pull off?

Nobody has any right to complain about an Elemental's toolkit besides their group utility which can be troublesome when people figure out its synergy with other classes (see LSD). That's the problem with PvP. Someone complains about something Elemental has because they saw them while playing against LSD; Elemental gets nerfed and becomes gutted in every other aspect, so they're forced into LSD. Problem doesn't go away and you've just screwed the game up for everybody else.

As a class, we're the red-headed step child of Blizzard, and have received nothing but nerfs and degradation year after year for the past 10 years and we get one spot in the limelight because we have great synergy with a specific comp and people call it unfair.

[Stormspellz]

its 6%, I already mentioned that.

its RNG, not good gameplay, no skill.

it's 1 GCD 250k damage in that screen and I had a fulmination flying in the air in the next global as well which could have easily done another 50k

I like how my rating has no relevance to how broken this talent is currently.

again the talent isn't broken in your meaning, yes a horribly gimmicky talent yes, but its is easily the worst talent in the skill tree, as pointed out its 6% with an icd and it can proc off any direct spell, including shocks, furthermore you can do nearly equal burst with instants, have far better mobility, and a hunters cc literally runs circles around elementals.

you got (kinda) rng, with current state of the game its going to happen. You where already low health when the procs happened.

[Illana]

I love how everybody's complaining about how much of a tank 'Elemental' is because of their toolkit. Shaman are a support class and have been from day one, we're built to play good in 3's, and as such we fail to hold our own when we don't have another (or two others if it's 3's) to back us up. We have next to no self-survivability cooldowns compared to other classes, garbage crowd control and our survivability comes from active healing which in today's meta-game is horrible because it requires casting. We're also required to wear a shield to even come close to a Holy Paladin's physical damage reduction even with mail armour.

Balance is able to run around uncontrollable, shifting out of snares and slows while healing and nobody blinks an eye? Not to mention Starsurge can hit for upwards of 200,000; over half of what Lava Burst with cooldowns can achieve. Have I mentioned how they should be renamed to Restokin's with the absurd amount of healing they're able to pull off?

Nobody has any right to complain about an Elemental's toolkit besides their group utility which can be troublesome when people figure out its synergy with other classes (see LSD). That's the problem with PvP. Someone complains about something Elemental has because they saw them while playing against LSD; Elemental gets nerfed and becomes gutted in every other aspect, so they're forced into LSD. Problem doesn't go away and you've just screwed the game up for everybody else.

As a class, we're the red-headed step child of Blizzard, and have received nothing but nerfs and degradation year after year for the past 10 years and we get one spot in the limelight because we have great synergy with a specific comp and people call it unfair.

Nobody is talking about 1v1. Hex is not garbage, it does not break on 1 damage and isn't dispellable by half the healers (although this is balanced by some dps being able to dispel it).

active healing is fine, if they interrupt you then your healer can freecast much more potent healing on you.

"required" to wear a shield. Will you get any more benefit with a staff or an offhand? I bet all casters would LOVE a shield over whatever they get.

Never seen a starsurge hit upwards of 200k, that's complete BS in arena. They also have one no passive damage reduction apart from the mediocre armour they get from moonkin form. The healing while hotw is up is out of control I agree.

group utility is all that matters since pvp is balanced around 3v3.

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again the talent isn't broken in your meaning, yes a horribly gimmicky talent yes, but its is easily the worst talent in the skill tree, as pointed out its 6% with an icd and it can proc off any direct spell, including shocks, furthermore you can do nearly equal burst with instants, have far better mobility, and a hunters cc literally runs circles around elementals.

you got (kinda) rng, with current state of the game its going to happen. You where already low health when the procs happened.

it globals people randomly from half health with almost no setup and no way to prevent it. "nearly equal" my ass. Chimera CRITS for about the same (little bit more maybe) with cooldowns up and then the rest of the damage depends on whether or not we have an aimed shot proc up and our pet is above 50 focus.

far better mobility is debatable, shamans cant be slowed below 100% with the glyph, can cast lightning bolt while moving (which hits almost as hard as lava burst just with no guaranteed crit) and can get tons of surge procs by dotting up 3 people (or more with pets).

I was at HALF hp my god, with my healer casting on me. Nobody expects to die randomly from an instant cast from half hp: that shit is broken no matter which way you cut it.

It's not like I died to ascendance or in a deep freeze or in a stun with a warrior with reck up. I died while running out of LoS back to my healer at 250k+ hp.

[Stormspellz]

it globals people randomly from half health with almost no setup and no way to prevent it. "nearly equal" my ass. Chimera CRITS for about the same (little bit more maybe) with cooldowns up and then the rest of the damage depends on whether or not we have an aimed shot proc up and our pet is above 50 focus.

far better mobility is debatable, shamans cant be slowed below 100% with the glyph, can cast lightning bolt while moving (which hits almost as hard as lava burst just with no guaranteed crit) and can get tons of surge procs by dotting up 3 people (or more with pets).

I was at HALF hp my god, with my healer casting on me. Nobody expects to die randomly from an instant cast from half hp: that shit is broken no matter which way you cut it.

It's not like I died to ascendance or in a deep freeze or in a stun with a warrior with reck up. I died while running out of LoS back to my healer at 250k+ hp.

-actually it has a set up - flame shock, its not much but it is a set up
-its not up fore debate, hunters have far more mobility, yes shamans can not be snared below 100% if they have the glyph (which most elementals don't get)
-lightning bolt hit NO WHERE CLOSE to lava burst, lightning bolts crits do less damage then a none flame shock lava burst.
-half hp is kill zone atm for everyone vs every proper team, thats the state of the game.
you died while trying to los, with a warrior on you and lava surge procing, and your "but my burst needs this this and this" all controllable and instant easily pulled off.

[Lolretadin]

I like how my rating has no relevance to how broken this talent is currently.

Your rating shows your current capability in PvP, which isn't very high.
The talent isn't broken, it's just silly. In fact, the talent is actually pretty bad in comparison to the other 2. And, as others have said, if the shaman had taken Ancestral Swiftness, more pressure would have been put out; you are complaining about the worst talent in the tier.

EDIT*
For inaccuracies.