550 ilvl still not enough for N Garrosh? *rant*

[Darksoldierr]

My only problem with Normal pugs is that you need Garrosh kill achievment. How i'm supposed to get that without being able to join any Normal group

[Pariah]

Off-Topic, sort of:
If you're Alliance, I'll setup a sales run for you for a reasonable gold amount. Just message me.

On-Topic:

Why can't he judge these people who lead? They willingly put up such stupid and unfair qualifications. Sure you can't stop it, and sure it is their own choice, as leaders, and their right to do so. But that doesn't mean we can't form opinions about them based on that? It's scummy, and it's fair for me or anyone else to think that a raid leader putting up such requirements is scummy. They're looking for a boost, not a fair run, and I will treat them as such. Fair game, just as it is fair game for them to make up the rules of their raid.

You absolutely have the right to judge anyone for anything. But it won't stop anything either. If I wanted to pug something, I'm going to put up crazy requirements and only lower them when I need to fill up the last spot.
I'd rather 9m/24m Garrosh then bring someone who I thought might not know what they're doing.

My only problem with Normal pugs is that you need Garrosh kill achievment. How i'm supposed to get that without being able to join any Normal group

Find a guild that is working on Garrosh and put in the time. Not everything needs to be killable in a PUG for everyone.

[Yarathir]

No, I mean those that worked the hardest. I'm not saying no one tries to be boosted, but in the vast majority of pugs I've done, the raid leader is among the best, which is why they feel confident raidleading. It's not about being boosted, it's about not wanting to boost others.

When I make pugs with guildies, we overgear the content and have it on farm, but we still invite the best players we can get because why wouldn't we? I want to go in, spend 30 seconds on tactics, and get a kill. I don't want to turn good players away in favor of bad ones, just so tactics takes ages to explain and the boss dies 5 minutes slower.

I honestly don't get how you can rationally justify calling others lazy and silly for not declining the best players in favor of worse ones.

Off-Topic, sort of:
If you're Alliance, I'll setup a sales run for you for a reasonable gold amount. Just message me.

On-Topic:

You absolutely have the right to judge anyone for anything. But it won't stop anything. If I wanted to pug something, I'm going to put up crazy requirements and only lower them when I need to fill up the last spot.
I'd rather 9m/24m Garrosh then bring someone who I thought might not know what they're doing.

Right. That's your right. Just like you are assuming someone without achievement/high ilvl will not perform well, they will probably assume that you are quite the unpleasant individual, in many cases.

[Pariah]

Right. That's your right. Just like you are assuming someone without achievement/high ilvl will not perform well, they will probably assume that you are quite the unpleasant individual, in many cases.

I've got 8 people trusting me to setup a decent raid for them. Do I risk wasting the time of 8 others and myself for someone who has not shown that they can do it? Granted I'm an exception, I'm sure Garrosh can be 3-5 man'd on normal. But assuming I wasn't bringing decked 580 mains or 575+ ALTs and I needed people to perform well, why do I risk the time of 9 people to give someone a free/half-earned kill?

[Ferg]

My warrior is 552 ilvl, pulls around 280k single target, and I have extensive heroic raid xp (dating back to Ulduar, when hard modes first started).

And people STILL won't let me in their reg groups...they say I'm not geared enough...well excuse me, but if you'd just give me the chance to show you what I can do I think you'd be pleasantly surprised...and I can't gear without getting into the damned raid.

[Revi]

Right. That's your right. Just like you are assuming someone without achievement/high ilvl will not perform well, they will probably assume that you are quite the unpleasant individual, in many cases.

Well, since I can't know every single player on an individual level, I'm forced to generalize. I can say with 100% certainty that the average normal/heroic raider is better than the average LFR/flex raider. I can also say with 100% certainty that, given equal skill, a 570 player performs much better than a 540 player.

Given those facts, if I have to choose between a 570 player and a 540 player, neither of which I know personally, the only sensible choice is to go with the 570.

If you're going to dislike me for choosing based on reason instead of spinning the bottle, then that's completely fine.

If you were making a football team with the intention of winning, and given the choice between football players their 20's and old men in their 70's, who would you choose?
And why would choosing the men in their 20's make you an unpleasant individual?

[theburned]

My only problem with Normal pugs is that you need Garrosh kill achievment. How i'm supposed to get that without being able to join any Normal group

this is an issue that is just grabbed from real life experiences, just like getting a job, you need 5 years of work experience to get even a shit job. same goes for a guild, but hey I got in a guild on my wlock was doing shit with 540 ilvl, but as soon as I got around 550 I started competing with the 565 locks then went on to top the dps in the guild.

[Darksoldierr]

Off-Topic, sort of:
If you're Alliance, I'll setup a sales run for you for a reasonable gold amount. Just message me.

On-Topic:

You absolutely have the right to judge anyone for anything. But it won't stop anything either. If I wanted to pug something, I'm going to put up crazy requirements and only lower them when I need to fill up the last spot.
I'd rather 9m/24m Garrosh then bring someone who I thought might not know what they're doing.


Find a guild that is working on Garrosh and put in the time. Not everything needs to be killable in a PUG for everyone.

I have several server first kills, and was hardcore raider from TBC till end of Wotlk (world 7th on Twin Valkyries, 18th on HM General Vezzax), i know how to play. I do not want to be carried. The problem is that i have zero time to play in a raiding guild, so all i do is a sunday night flex raid with a pug, but since i cleared that already, i would rather move onto Normal raids.

But thus i fall into the loop of you need garrosh kill for achievment, but you need achievment for garrosh kill. Just like how a new student fresh from the uni has hard time getting a job. You need experience for a job but you need job for an experience

[Ferg]

If you were making a football team with the intention of winning, and given the choice between football players their 20's and old men in their 70's, who would you choose?
And why would choosing the men in their 20's make you an unpleasant individual?

This is an absolutely terrible analogy to this problem. A more accurate one would be;

"If you were making a football team, with the intention of winning, would you take the 20 year olds completely decked out in the freshest Nike / Adidas gear, or the 20 year olds wearing secondhand pads?"

Nevermind the fact that the secondhand team has more to prove and will probably shit all over your entitled Nike kids...just like in WoW. I regularly destroy 570+ geared dps on my 552 warrior. But since I can't prove that in Openraid chat...I have to suffer. That is not fair.

[Yarathir]

Well, since I can't know every single player on an individual level, I'm forced to generalize. I can say with 100% certainty that the average normal/heroic raider is better than the average LFR/flex raider. I can also say with 100% certainty that, given equal skill, a 570 player performs much better than a 540 player.

Given those facts, if I have to choose between a 570 player and a 540 player, neither of which I know personally, the only sensible choice is to go with the 570.

If you're going to dislike me for choosing based on reason instead of spinning the bottle, then that's completely fine.

If you were making a football team with the intention of winning, and given the choice between football players their 20's and old men in their 70's, who would you choose?
And why would choosing the men in their 20's make you an unpleasant individual?

The differing factor is that one is a game for fun, and the other is a bit more.. severe and serious. If you wipe, you haven't lost the game.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Everyone can set their own requirements for their own group. But some people really cross the line. 550 Ilvl is enough to clear SoO normal, and being too picky may lead to bad reputation, even more if the raid leader doesn't meet his own requirements.
But the problem is that people don't trust each other anymore. I was able to kill normal Deathwing for the first time, back in Cata, in a pug. I had to lie and tell I had 6/8 heroic on my main, and in the end I was top dps. Nowadays you cannot even pretend you did it, and even if you know your class, you know tactics and you have the gear, rest assured you won't get into any groups without an achievement.

[Nero412]

I raid lead multiple SoO runs through Open Raid every week, I'm fairly lax on the item level for bosses up until Thok and Siegecrafter, doing it with 540s or so, but when it comes to Garrosh I end up doing it with 560/570 groups. Why? Because so far my experience with lugging Garrosh for a BoA has been awful so far.

Most of those super elite 565 pugs aren't in it for gear, it's all for the BoA. I tried taking people from the appropriate item level from when I first killed it and doing the fight right, but it is just Not. Worth. It. Wasted multiple hours trying to execute it with pugs and kill adds that spawn from Whirling. It's significantly easier to just fill it with people who didn't kill it this week due to whatever reason who have a high item level then nuke the boss by skipping any significant phase.

Hell, last group I was in he died so fast he didn't even MC anyone after his P3 RP.

[Overdispersion]

the problem is not ilevel, its bad players. Alot of players are getting to the 550 ilevel now that are very bad players, I meet players that are 560 and can barley pull 140k... my 510 Mage can pull 145k

Somehow I find it very hard to believe that you can pull 145k with your ilvl510 mage. Not even Method mages pulled off that much with their +510 gear first time they killed iron qon normal or twin consorts which are the most patchwerk type encounters in tot.

[xenogear3]

I feel your pain.

The gear inflation made it worse.

[Trubo]

Yesterday i saw someone asking for ppl ilvl 560+ in order to make ToT Hm ....

I was probably in the group if you're talking about the one Maulfus was running. Item level wasn't an issue; things like:

1. People starting stacked at beginning of fight and spawning 15+ adds
2. People being slow as fuck despite 3 Warlock portals to get to their intermission spots, killing 1-2 platforms because of bad Overcharge placement.
3. People with solo soaking capabilities not solo soaking
4. People staying stacked during first intermission despite those adds about to spawn.
5. etc

were what was making the fight an issue. Only a few people died to Helm (pretty much the only Heroic mechanic that we saw) because they hadn't seen it before and that was only once per person. The people wiping to shit that has been visible in LFR and Normal is unacceptable though given how we were able to kill Heroic Dark Animus.

As for OP: Make your own raid with lower item level requirements. It might take you a couple of weeks but if you can keep the same 8 people you should get a kill fairly easily. Just don't lose your head if things go badly.

[Vayshan]

I'm locked to Paragons, I just want to kill Garrosh. Why isn't 550 ilvl enough? I understand having the legendary cloak is a very healthy dps increase but c'mon. It is manageable without it. I can still do 200k dps without it, oh and I have to link my achievement too? Give me a break. I get you don't want to sit there and wipe x number of times, I just want my kill for the week.

"LFM N GARROSH KILL 560+ ilvl"
"LFM N GARROSH KILL PST ACHIEVE 550+ LEGENDARY CLOAK REQUIRED"

Hey guys, don't quit playing WoW when you are in the middle of your legendary quest line. The end expansion pugs will be a pain in the ass to get into because you *NEED* it.

*yes I have a guild, we only raid 2 nights a week, 4-5 hours max between the 2 days, killed siegecrafter and called it*

I'M CRY IF I DON'T GET MY WOLF MOUNT.

I'd say they just want to make 'more' sure that the person replying knows his game and has plenty of raid experience. As opposed to getting a reply from a person who's just made his first full SoO raidfinder and feels invincible enough to take on Garrosh normal. Or someone who thinks that doing X amount of dps is a sole indication of being pro. The achievement linking is a perfectly sane thing to ask. No one in that raid group is waiting for someone who needs the whole fight explained to him. The cloak requirement is overrated to be honest.

They just want to make sure they get a competent and experienced raider. Sure they can check your armory profile and all... but be honest, it's easier to just add some additional requirements like ilvl to the LFM message.

[Hypasonic]

550 ilvl, have you only done 1 clear upto garrosh? Seems you could be farming those bosses for more gear, and do flex to fill in some other pieces. Can easily get 560+ that way (even if that requirement for garrosh is steep) Just keep farming and you'll get enough gear eventually.

[Deleted]

You could make your own raid...

[Ferg]

550 ilvl, have you only done 1 clear upto garrosh? Seems you could be farming those bosses for more gear, and do flex to fill in some other pieces. Can easily get 560+ that way (even if that requirement for garrosh is steep) Just keep farming and you'll get enough gear eventually.

explain to me how you can possibly reach 560+ with flex gear? it's 548 fully upgraded...and that's the point dude, we can't "farm those bosses for more gear" because people won't let us in their groups.

[Hypasonic]

I said, farm the bosses you CAN kill on normal and do rest to fill in other pieces. IF you're 550 ilvl and you don't have the cloak, then you're filled with lrf pieces I assume? So farm the bosses you can kill for gear since you obviously lack a lot