550 ilvl still not enough for N Garrosh? *rant*

[Giscoicus]

Good post.

But, if you ask me, the overall organization is far more importent, compared to ilvl of players(it doesnt matter if its a guild or PuG run). And that's up the raidleader to invite people with brain and not iLvl.

Of course. But you don't get a low item level by being good. If a player has 560-570 item level they have normal experience, 550 ilvl and they might have cleared LFR. A higher item level player is more likely to be better. Risking lower geared players means wipes, which is bad for a pug, needing to drop players and get new ones wastes time , wiping is bad for morale and players will end up leaving. Pugs don't have any metric for skill level other than gear an achievements. There are flaws of course, but it's the only one we have.

[Azrile]

Exactly. I killed Garrosh in a 25 man guild on October 10th with a 533 ilevel - as a tank, mind you. I have a significantly larger ilevel at this point (550 as Prot, 565 as DPS; always fun when your OS is more geared than your MS), the legendary items, and yet I still won't be taken to a heroic run or even a normal Garrosh.

It's the same thing as the end of ICC. People are caught up in ilevels and gear scores, and while yes, they're generally a good indicator, they're not always correct.

I am guessing you killed Garrosh the first time with your guild.

That is the part people don´t get. The reason people ´demand´ high ilvls is because PUGs are much less efficient than guild groups. It doesn´t matter what your ilvl was when you killed a boss as part of your guild.. it needs to be significantly higher when you are dealing with PUGs.

[Deleted]

Of course. But you don't get a low item level by being good. If a player has 560-570 item level they have normal experience, 550 ilvl and they might have cleared LFR. A higher item level player is more likely to be better. Risking lower geared players means wipes, which is bad for a pug, needing to drop players and get new ones wastes time , wiping is bad for morale and players will end up leaving. Pugs don't have any metric for skill level other than gear an achievements. There are flaws of course, but it's the only one we have.

You explain the logical approach. I understand and i agree on this.

But have you ever wondered, why the random ilvl560 DPS only pulls 100K DPS, while people with less gear pulls 200k? That means something is wrong and you cannot take the logical approach, if you want to be successful.

And I say, the raidleaders job is not to spam chat and randomly invite people, who are above the threshold and expect everything to be perfect. Because its never going to work(yes i know, people can just kick PuG members, wipe X amount of time etc. till everything is in order).

But im asking you: is it the player or the raidleader who failed in first place?

[Halicia]

But have you ever wondered, why the random ilvl560 DPS only pulls 100K DPS, while people with less gear pulls 200k?

skill being equal, there's not a single class where thats the case.

who do you think does more dps, a bad ret pally with 560 ilvl or a bad ret pally with 530 ilvl ?

who do you think does more dps, a good ret pally with 560 ilvl or a good ret pally with 530 ilvl ?

ilvl requirements are for evaluating potential performance. once the pug is formed, the raidleader can adjust for ACTUAL performance.

[Normie]

But have you ever wondered, why the random ilvl560 DPS only pulls 100K DPS, while people with less gear pulls 200k? That means something is wrong and you cannot take the logical approach, if you want to be successful.

Because he's a troll (the internet kind) with a 561 heirloom weapon?

[Bryntrollian]

skill being equal, there's not a single class where thats the case.

who do you think does more dps, a bad ret pally with 560 ilvl or a bad ret pally with 530 ilvl ?

who do you think does more dps, a good ret pally with 560 ilvl or a good ret pally with 530 ilvl ?

ilvl requirements are for evaluating potential performance. once the pug is formed, the raidleader can adjust for ACTUAL performance.

Skill is hardly ever equal in regards to pugs.
A more valuable question would be, who does more dps, A bad ret with 560 ilvl or a Very skilled ret with 535 ilvl.

I've seen a 535 ret out damage a 560 ret but it was probably because he had the Heroic Heirloom weapon and was more adept to the Ret paladin skill set.

[Tradu]

Skill is hardly ever equal in regards to pugs.
A more valuable question would be, who does more dps, A bad ret with 560 ilvl or a Very skilled ret with 535 ilvl.

I've seen a 535 ret out damage a 560 ret but it was probably because he had the Heroic Heirloom weapon and was more adept to the Ret paladin skill set.

But the thing is, unless they have a heroic heirloom(and even with that they could just have been boosted), there really isn't any way to tell if they're more skilled than your average PuG player. I've out damaged lots of better geared people of my spec, but there is no way a raidleader could've known that would happen.

[Deleted]

But the thing is, unless they have a heroic heirloom(and even with that they could just have been boosted), there really isn't any way to tell if they're more skilled than your average PuG player. I've out damaged lots of better geared people of my spec, but there is no way a raidleader could've known that would happen.

Your raidleader must do the research better. Simple as that(and yes, i know it takes time to write back and forth, to make sure that the DPS is reliable, not only because of iLvl). But he cannot be the successful leader, if he forms PuG's based on iLvl as the only criteria. It WILL fail.

It has been proven in many areas(that includes sport, buisness etc.). There is a big difference between paper statistics and workload. And this is why, we have the difference between the average and top tier guilds. It all about, what people will focus on and what kind of approach they take.

Who wants to play with a group, with a raidleader who randomly invites people, wiping, kicking and so on in frustration? I rather make my own group and if it fails, then people must blame me(afterall it is my responsibility, i gave the invitation).

And this is why im telling people like OP and other tryhards, that leaders who are checking iLvls out, are simple bad. They suck.

[ReleaseDay]

Yeah it is stupid. Its been like this since the gs times in mid wotlk though.

[Tradu]

Your raidleader must do the research better. Simple as that(and yes, i know it takes time to write back and forth, to make sure that the DPS is reliable, not only because of iLvl). But he cannot be the successful leader, if he forms PuG's based on iLvl as the only criteria. It WILL fail.

It has been proven in many areas(that includes sport, buisness etc.). There is a big difference between paper statistics and workload. And this is why, we have the difference between the average and top tier guilds. It all about, what people will focus on and what kind of approach they take.

Who wants to play with a group, with a raidleader who randomly invites people, wiping, kicking and so on in frustration? I rather make my own group and if it fails, then people must blame me(afterall it is my responsibility, i gave the invitation).

And this is why im telling people like OP and other tryhards, that leaders who are checking iLvls out, are simple bad. They suck.

PuGs are NOT guilds. And you're being unreasonable in terms of what you expect from a PuG raidleader. A PuG(Pickup group, so a group of random people who decide to try doing a raid together) leader does NOT have the time to do the kind of research you expect. There's a reason guild applications take time to review.
In a guild, YES, there should be research/an interview, but a PuG is completely different.
And no, you can't tell if a DPS is reliable just from talking to them. Anybody can learn the tactics or whatever by heart, but still fail at executing them.

[Deleted]

PuGs are NOT guilds. And you're being unreasonable in terms of what you expect from a PuG raidleader. A PuG(Pickup group, so a group of random people who decide to try doing a raid together) leader does NOT have the time to do the kind of research you expect. There's a reason guild applications take time to review.
In a guild, YES, there should be research/an interview, but a PuG is completely different.
And no, you can't tell if a DPS is reliable just from talking to them. Anybody can learn the tactics or whatever by heart, but still fail at executing them.

Time? Your raidleader takes his time to wipe, kick, replace people, waste energy in frustration, but wont take his time to do short interview and correct research? I say, there shouldnt be any difference between guild and PuG runs(atleast raidleaders should act like that).

PuG runs are doomed then, let us agree on that. Afterall, its completely fine to form PuG's randomly(just like playing lottery)and work it out that way, until everything is in order.

[Tradu]

Time? Your raidleader takes his time to wipe, kick, replace people, waste energy in frustration, but wont take his time to do short interview and correct research? I say, there shouldnt be any difference between guild and PuG runs.

PuG runs are doomed then, let us agree on that. Afterall, its completely fine to form PuG's randomly(just like playing lottery).

If there was no difference, they wouldn't need different names. PuG runs have always been like playing the lottery in terms of success. And no, PuG leaders don't take their time to wipe, kick and replace people, because the majority of PuGs disband after a couple of wipes. And YES, it is completely fine to form PuGs randomly. That's what PuGs ARE.
There IS a difference between guilds and PuGs, that will ALWAYS be there, because PuGs don't have to give a shit about the others, as they might very well never meet them again, while in guilds, you generally stick together for ages.

[Xkiller9000]

my 553 mage cant get into to barely any SoO runs even though i have 8/14H xp and hes 11/14N

[DemoBytom]

I had 545 item level people pulling 120k DPS on Garrosh.. Because of those people pug leaders want over-the-top item level as well as achievement. Nobody wants to get stuck on the boss they already defeated just cause few people can't pull out their weight.
So ye - for pugs I always demand 550+ item level. Guildes? We've taken guildes with 500ilv on that fight and it was all right...

[Deleted]

If there was no difference, they wouldn't need different names. PuG runs have always been like playing the lottery in terms of success. And no, PuG leaders don't take their time to wipe, kick and replace people, because the majority of PuGs disband after a couple of wipes. And YES, it is completely fine to form PuGs randomly. That's what PuGs ARE.
There IS a difference between guilds and PuGs, that will ALWAYS be there, because PuGs don't have to give a shit about the others, as they might very well never meet them again, while in guilds, you generally stick together for ages.

Good post, thanks.

I see now where we are going. And i didnt exactly know, how PuG's work(im not very experienced).

OP: find a progressive guild. I don't belive PuG is for everyone.

[Saphyron]

Im sorry, it was nothing personal. Im just talking about the issues, both you and I face.

Im more than dedicated to do the best i can, but no one gives me the fucking chance(just like the OP). Meanwhile, raidleaders went chat spam, just to check iLvls and fail in raid(just because they focus on iLvl).

It is not about iLvl, but better organization. That is what im talking about.

As written before if you are on EU and you are on alliance you can join these raids:

Alliance run for SoO flex 1+2, 520 ilevel requirement
Trusmoov does those runs every week, and I *believe* Fistsneezer is supposed to be doing a Horde equivalent on another day.

Horde SoO normal, leader has decent reputation, 530 ilevel requirement
So there are certainly runs for lesser geared people, and Kalepp already plugged his(very good) SoO25N runs on Alliance with a 540 ilevel requirement.
OpenRaid chat probably has higher requirements than pre-planned runs.

I've never tried oqueue, because I hated the UI and the 9001 useless things it does beyond the matchmaking thing, so I have no idea how well that works.

I can highly vote on Kalepp's Raids :P

[Deleted]

If you are not very experienced (that was shown in your posts) why you give other people advice how to make pugs?

I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.

[Deleted]

I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.

How can you criticize something you have no experience in ? If you dont know how it works, how can you say its wrong ?
You clearly dont pug at all and as such can't really comment on what approach is good or bad, you simply dont know.
Making assumptions based on guesses is never a good outcome.

How do you think guild group progresses content ? Do you think they magically dont wipe aobve a certain ilvl ? Get real kiddo.

[Saphyron]

I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.

Don't need to be cocky about it. pug groups from trade usually ends up that way.
Join openraid. yes wipes happen there unless you are joining a hardcore raid. but with your attitude i doubt you would have a chance of joining them.

Be civil and maybe someone might want to take you along.

[Deleted]

How can you criticize something you have no experience in ? If you dont know how it works, how can you say its wrong ?
You clearly dont pug at all and as such can't really comment on what approach is good or bad, you simply dont know.
Making assumptions based on guesses is never a good outcome.

How do you think guild group progresses content ? Do you think they magically dont wipe aobve a certain ilvl ? Get real kiddo.

Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).