BIS Question

[Sockie]

Should I be using the pre-set weights on ask mr.robot?

I preset it Mastery>Haste>Crit, but is that wrong now?

Thanks.

[Mefistophelis]

depends on spec/gear. it really varies. the best way to find out is to use simulationcraft. it has a nice option called "Reforge plot" which tells you how dps fluctuates with the changes on secondary stats.

[naifas]

There is a nice sim but you must fulfill some pre-requisites:

1. be a rogue

2. either be combat, subtlety or assassination

If you do fullfill the requirements, head over to http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ and optimize your rogue!



PS: You're welcome.

[Sesshou]

You can either run simulation craft to get your stat weights as Arian said, or you can just ignore mr. robot and use shadowcraft.

There is a nice sim but you must fulfill some pre-requisites:

1. be a rogue

2. either be combat, subtlety or assassination

If you do fullfill the requirements, head over to http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ and optimize your rogue!



PS: You're welcome.

That isn't a sim...

PS: You're welcome.

[Kael]

Shadowcraft is a spreadsheet with a visual interface rather than a sim, yes. The only realistic impact this has for most of us is that it makes cross-spec DPS comparisons invalid.

Shadowcraft is still the most amazing rogue tool ever. If you're not looking for the last .1%, you can usually just plug and play from Shadowcraft's analysis.

[Imperviable]

Shadow craft is like half the reason I switched from pally to rogue.

[Sockie]

Well ask mr robot states that determined its gear list from SimC and Shadowcraft...

Anyone confirm/deny that BIS list on askmrrobot is okay for assassination?

[Deleted]

Well ask mr robot states that determined its gear list from SimC and Shadowcraft...

Anyone confirm/deny that BIS list on askmrrobot is okay for assassination?

Well, both the Combat and the Sub BIS lists on ARM is wrong, so Im going to guess that the Assassination one is aswell. However, if you are at BIS-level of gameplay, and you play Assassination, it doesnt really matter if the list is wrong or right, since you will be so far behind Combat and Sub anyway, no matter how good your gear is.

[Sesshou]

Well ask mr robot states that determined its gear list from SimC and Shadowcraft...

Anyone confirm/deny that BIS list on askmrrobot is okay for assassination?

Honestly, especially with the addition of thunder/war forged stuff, you likely won't have exactly that list anyway. If you don't, the whole bis list is meaningless since your weights won't be the same and you will need to re-consult which ever source you trust (or both) and recalculate based on what exactly you're using. A big culprit would be your off tier slot. You could go the entire tier without seeing a specific piece in WF (or you may not get it if you do see it once), especially on 10m with the lower WF drop rate per player.

A fixed bis list is a near worthless tool when something like SC exists imo.

[Dextar]

Well, both the Combat and the Sub BIS lists on ARM is wrong, so Im going to guess that the Assassination one is aswell. However, if you are at BIS-level of gameplay, and you play Assassination, it doesnt really matter if the list is wrong or right, since you will be so far behind Combat and Sub anyway, no matter how good your gear is.

This really depends on the fight and strats. Single target assassination still walks all over combat, especially in situations where there are multiple execute phases (Paragons/Garrosh).

[Dropndestroyrr]

This really depends on the fight and strats. Single target assassination still walks all over combat, especially in situations where there are multiple execute phases (Paragons/Garrosh).

Absolutely true. Here is this past weeks H Garrosh kill. We were both on Engineers in the beginning. I am Mutilate while the other rogue is Combat. (We also skip 2nd transmission which is why the number is lower than usual amounts.)

[Sesshou]

This really depends on the fight and strats. Single target assassination still walks all over combat, especially in situations where there are multiple execute phases (Paragons/Garrosh).

Assassination's execute isn't extra beneficial on paragons, and also blade flurry is actually useful damage for one small portion as well. You still spend 35% of the time in execute phase. Garrosh is the sole exception because when he 'heals' he only goes to full hp once. The p3 heal is still entirely in execute phase and over half of p4 is as well.

And assassination does not walk all over combat for ST. Afaik combat edges it out.

[Deleted]

This really depends on the fight and strats. Single target assassination still walks all over combat, especially in situations where there are multiple execute phases (Paragons/Garrosh).

Well it depends on player skill, near BiS gear assa rogues aren't beating combat on single target damage on garrosh and at the same time far behind on cleave damage which is suprisingly useful on that fight for taking down mind controlled people, one combat rogue with killing spree and blade flurry makes that so much easier. So saying that assasination would walk over combat is just silly (even at lower gear levels).

I fail so see how you can make such a comment when logs clearly state otherwise, personal experience is highly irrelevant you know...

Oh and dropndestroy, how is one log of you beating your combat rogue relevant? You don't draw conclusions like that, it's outright flawed.

Edit. Err there might be multiple execute phases on paragons but there isn't an increase in percentage of time spent at below 35%.. And combat is better on this fight.

As for the op's question, you won't really go wrong with shadowcraft. Askmrobot doesn't account for stat value fluctuation hence it's not a very good tool for assa rogue who have constantly changing stat values. Using preset values for combat though is fine 9 times out of 10.

[Dextar]

Well it depends on player skill, near BiS gear assa rogues aren't beating combat on single target damage on garrosh and at the same time far behind on cleave damage which is suprisingly useful on that fight for taking down mind controlled people, one combat rogue with killing spree and blade flurry makes that so much easier. So saying that assasination would walk over combat is just silly (even at lower gear levels).

I fail so see how you can make such a comment when logs clearly state otherwise, personal experience is highly irrelevant you know...

Oh and dropndestroy, how is one log of you beating your combat rogue relevant? You don't draw conclusions like that, it's outright flawed.

Edit. Err there might be multiple execute phases on paragons but there isn't an increase in percentage of time spent at below 35%.. And combat is better on this fight.

As for the op's question, you won't really go wrong with shadowcraft. Askmrobot doesn't account for stat value fluctuation hence it's not a very good tool for assa rogue who have constantly changing stat values. Using preset values for combat though is fine 9 times out of 10.

It also depends on how the assassination rogue is gemming/reforging. Our assassination rogue who is of identical skill of myself was getting beaten when he followed the SC recommendations, going back to our traditional full mastery build he's able to constantly beat me out on every single target fight purely because of the execute phase. Same thing when it came to the other two assassination rogues we've had.

Again, as I said, it really depends on your strats as well. Our strat I don't KS the MC'd people because of the poison dots it applies, we also have enough cleave to take down the MCs without me using KS. Some guilds might not have the cleave and need you to be combat but the loss of the single target on Garrosh in the execute phases is extremely important. Combat is only "better" on paragons if you scumbag, ie: put on BF to do cleave damage that just heals and does nothing to help your raid. If KS is off CD when just before or during whirling, that's wasted time of your ability that can drop you right in the path of the whirl. (Again, depends on the strat but most guilds keep him alive as the final boss)

OP: I'd personally suggest to follow those same stat priorities but use SC to help reforge them. You'll have to manually change your gems then use the advanced tab to reforge with those stat weights. SC does a much better job at getting you as close as possible to the 2550 hit/exp caps.

[Deleted]

It also depends on how the assassination rogue is gemming/reforging. Our assassination rogue who is of identical skill of myself was getting beaten when he followed the SC recommendations, going back to our traditional full mastery build he's able to constantly beat me out on every single target fight purely because of the execute phase. Same thing when it came to the other two assassination rogues we've had.

Again, as I said, it really depends on your strats as well. Our strat I don't KS the MC'd people because of the poison dots it applies, we also have enough cleave to take down the MCs without me using KS. Some guilds might not have the cleave and need you to be combat but the loss of the single target on Garrosh in the execute phases is extremely important. Combat is only "better" on paragons if you scumbag, ie: put on BF to do cleave damage that just heals and does nothing to help your raid. If KS is off CD when just before or during whirling, that's wasted time of your ability that can drop you right in the path of the whirl. (Again, depends on the strat but most guilds keep him alive as the final boss)

OP: I'd personally suggest to follow those same stat priorities but use SC to help reforge them. You'll have to manually change your gems then use the advanced tab to reforge with those stat weights. SC does a much better job at getting you as close as possible to the 2550 hit/exp caps.

The notion that reforging to mastery would be better for the execute phase is wrong, haste and crit increase in value when a higher percentage of the fight is spent at below 35%.

The strats you mention are quite irrelevant to this discussion, you said assa is clearly better which it isn't if you look at boss damage from combat rogues and assa rogues. There's other times than when people are getting mced that blade flurry is useful aswell you know, like the intermission phases but still it's quite irrelevant, it's that you said that assa is clearly better than combat on this fight which it isn't. There's no gain in single target dps vs garrosh when playing assa vs combat simply because combat is stronger normally, and it just evens out on that fight due to higher percentage spent below 35%. But assa is still not better it's just more or less equal. And for the actual execute phase before phase 4 which I agree is important, assa doesn't really have a "clear edge" there, sure they'll probably squeeze out abit more, but it's not something that would be in line with combat being "clearly worse" if you take into account everything else combat brings to that fight.

As for the whole we don't need the cleave arguement I don't believe that for one second, i've done garrosh with 3 different guilds now and there's always been an occasion where movement have gotten fucked up due to people not getting freed from mc quickly enough, it's not something everyone notices but it still matters.. The fight just becomes easier. As for poisons, it's not a problem when considering the great gain from freeing people quicker.

As for paragons I'm obviously not talking about blade flurry whoring, come on... Combat is better there because of higher single target dps, simple as that. Whirling isn't a problem with ks, you just immune it, could be wrong but I know that i've never been hit by it during killing spree, which means it's not really worth mentioning anyway.

[Dropndestroyrr]

Oh and dropndestroy, how is one log of you beating your combat rogue relevant? You don't draw conclusions like that, it's outright flawed.

I can provide more logs if necessary, but it is generally accepted that multiple execution phases in one fight greatly favors Assassination. My post was just an example. Given that Mut (or any other spec with a significant execute) is probably balanced around 1 execute phase it seems reasonable to conclude that. Combat is very useful on Garrosh and every other fight in SoO for the reasons you listed.

I don't agree with Dextar's comment about Mut's single target being always better than Combat's single target and that is exactly the reason why I bolded the text in the quote, sorry if there was a confusion there.

As for paragons I'm obviously not talking about blade flurry whoring, come on... Combat is better there because of higher single target dps, simple as that.

Yes, Combat is higher single target dps on a boss.

[Feali]

As for paragons I'm obviously not talking about blade flurry whoring, come on... Combat is better there because of higher single target dps, simple as that. Whirling isn't a problem with ks, you just immune it, could be wrong but I know that i've never been hit by it during killing spree, which means it's not really worth mentioning anyway.

I have more problems with Sonic Projection and Vicious Assault.

[Deleted]

I have more problems with Sonic Projection and Vicious Assault.

I never got hit by Vicious Assault during Killing Spree, even though it is scary there. For sonic projection I use feint + glyphed cloak before KSing. Might still want to refrain from using KS if boss has many stacks.

Another fun way you can die to KS on this fight is Death from Above. You'll follow Kil'rukthe Wind-Reaver up in the air, land with him and die.

[Deleted]

I can provide more logs if necessary, but it is generally accepted that multiple execution phases in one fight greatly favors Assassination. My post was just an example. Given that Mut (or any other spec with a significant execute) is probably balanced around 1 execute phase it seems reasonable to conclude that. Combat is very useful on Garrosh and every other fight in SoO for the reasons you listed.

I don't agree with Dextar's comment about Mut's single target being always better than Combat's single target and that is exactly the reason why I bolded the text in the quote, sorry if there was a confusion there.



Yes, Combat is higher single target dps on a boss.

Generally accepted... it's still false when you look at the actual data, on garrosh for example yes assa does more dps during the execute phase but over the course of the fight they don't have any advantage to combat in single target damage. Ok yes they do when the combat rogues are shit, and I would be fine with that arguement if we were talking about normal mode raiding but we aren't.

Secondly on garrosh it is true that a higher percentage of the fight duration is spent at below 35% normally hence assa slightly gains value (it gains value but it does NOT gain value over combat, it just gains value) but it has nothing to do with multiple execution phases. On paragons you don't spend a higher percentage below 35% which I've already stated before, hence assa doesn't gain any value because of multiple execution phases, it just has got nothing to do with it.

How is it reasonable to conclude anything without decent data? Due to combats rather big advantage in a normal ST fight which is spent a normal amount of time below 35% should be common sence not to assume anything about assa's gains in a fight which spends a higher amount of time below 35%, the sensible conclusion would be that it evens out. But we don't need to guess when we have logs.

Your conclusions are based of what you think is better and not actual logs of good players are telling you, your own logs are highly irrelevant due to player skill, I could look through your logs and mostly likely find quite a few things wrong.

[Kael]

I'm not prepared to argue that combat's ahead in p2/3/4 exclusively (do remember that the rogues in question are on the engineer), but I will say that combat, even on Garrosh, certainly maintains its lead. Checking the top logs (link) reveals that even one of the top assassination rogues is beaten on Garrosh damage for the fight. Of course, you can't easily separate rogues that duo the engineer on 25H, since by default, going AFK for 20s at a time in p1 is going to crap on their damage done for the fight, so it could be the case that in a comparison of only p2/3/4, assassination is ahead because of the massively extended execute.



That said, please try to keep a high level of civility to your arguments and make sure we're talking about general theory and practice as opposed to a single player's actions, unless they request an analysis. It often turns ugly if you don't.


However, this entire discussion is wildly off-topic from the original discussion. Having corrected any misconceptions and moved on, I can't see how anything we'd now add about execute phase damage for assassination vs. combat (specifically on 25H Garrosh for damage on Garrosh) would contribute a discussion that started about BiS stat weights and online character tools. Locking it.