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  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    What's wrong with being socialist?
    Nothing is wrong with socialism, I'm Canadian after all I'm saying he's misusing that term. As a Canadian with government provided medical care and higher min wages ($11 where I am soon, but I'm working a professional job making more than that), I can see the benefits of why these would be good things for the US to adopt.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by SL1200 View Post
    Nobody was forced, but it happens. How do you intend to stop poor people from having sex and children? I don't work for minimum wage, but I know that it's impossible for anyone with a family to do so.

    Like i said before. Just insuring myself and 2 kids is 700 dollars a month. If i worked for $8 an hour (Thankfully I do not) that would leave me with $580 dollars a month to pay rent, buy food, and all the other necessitates. That isn't enough money unless the people are on welfare. The idea behind raising the minimum wage in my mind is to get people off welfare.
    Wow, that sucks. My job lets me insure a whole family for $200 a month.

    Maybe I just got blessed with a good job that pays a "bad" wage in the "ass end of nowhere" that happens to be a famous tourist attraction?

    And my girlfriend is on birth control so we don't have children.

  3. #983
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    It's simply hilarious that people who say "It's simple econ 101" or "It's simple supply and demand that prices would sky rocket if we raised wages" have no backing in facts. What they are posting here is nearly word for word what is parroted across every Republican News Network in the country. There are now multiple studies that soundly REFUTE this rhetoric.
    What's worse is that it's really basic math.

    Let's say you're selling widgets for $5, and they cost $3 to produce, giving you a net profit of $2 per widget. Let's even exaggerate most wage costs because your widgets are hand-made; your labor costs are 50% of the total production cost, or $1.50.

    Now, let's say wages double.

    That means your production cost is now $4.50. You could still make a profit, selling at $5, but you want to protect your profit margins, so you start selling them for $6.50. This means you keep making $2/widget, and the price increase is just under 25%.

    Now, apply that to all industries. Prices have gone up 25% across the board. That sounds bad, right?

    You're forgetting that wages went up 100%. Net buying power increased.

    The only way that a wage increase to labor costs can mean an increase in prices in a 1:1 ratio, resulting in no gains to actual net buying power for those whose wages increased, is if labor is 100% of your production costs, and you have a razor-thin profit margin. Which is basically not true of any business out there, or at least no successful one.

    This isn't political. It's simple, basic math. The numbers don't lie; wage increases cannot lead to price increases on a 1:1 ratio, not without some additional factor affecting that final price, like the owner increasing their profit margins. This isn't a libs vs. cons thing, or a dems vs. repubs; it's straight up proportional math.
    Last edited by Endus; 2014-05-01 at 05:47 PM.


  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    And your solution is to raise the minimum wage. An action that does nothing to help people get out of those low-end jobs and will, most likely, result in inflation.

    Meanwhile you oppose my idea because it might, at some point in the future, result in a surplus of people with too much experience.

    Now THAT'S logic for you.
    Increasing minimum wage does not result in inflation - proven in a number of countries. The GOP just tells people that as a scare tactic.

    What was your idea? (just repost if you wouldn't mind)

  5. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    And your solution is to raise the minimum wage. An action that does nothing to help people get out of those low-end jobs and will, most likely, result in inflation.

    Meanwhile you oppose my idea because it might, at some point in the future, result in a surplus of people with too much experience.

    Now THAT'S logic for you.
    No, I'm just not deluded enough to believe that simply producing a surfit of qualified workers will alleviate the problems in jobs that will exist either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  6. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    This is America and we speak American. Let me help.
    Still LOL'ing. We may not always agree, but you do make good some great points.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    All of the false rhetoric, when we have other countries with minimum wage at $10, $15, $20, and even some nordic countries at $25 an hour.

    Their economies are STRONGER THAN OURS. Mass inflation DID NOT HAPPEN. You are just wrong.
    Countries like Switzerland, is that the Nordic country you're referring too? Here's some rhetoric for you then:

    http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...=United+States

    Derp.

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Countries like Switzerland, is that the Nordic country you're referring too? Here's some rhetoric for you then:

    http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...=United+States

    Derp.
    And yet they have a much lower poverty index and a stronger economy. Funny how that works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    And yet they have a much lower poverty index and a stronger economy. Funny how that works.
    Well I'd hope so seeing how they'd probably just die of starvation otherwise apparently, at least our poverty stricken can scrape up enough change (currently) to get a McDouble. In countries like Switzerland that's probably not even a remote possibility, but let's go be like them!

    I'd love to see your metric backing up "stronger economy" as well lol.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2014-05-01 at 05:53 PM.

  10. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Especially considering the fact most countries that are more socialist have better economic mobility
    Yeah just look at how well all these socialist European countries are doing:


  11. #991
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    So many of those countries referenced aren't socialist in Europe.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I think the problem you are not seeing with this utopia of the starving and disease ridden poor, is that we do not live in a vacuum. The desperate will do some pretty horrible things to get by. ie, this will affect crime rate. Outside of it just being a horrible mindset.

    There is a saying I like that is used in the military. "You are only as strong as your weakest link." If you make weak links in our society, eventually even the rich will fall. For that I point you to history, namely the french revolution.
    Ahh, and this is what I tell my Republican friends every time they mention abolishing welfare. To be clear, I am NOT anti-welfare, I'm anti-welfare abuse (and I would hope everyone would be) I just may have differing views from others of what constitutes abuse. If you can't work and you get it, fine, if you do work and need a bit extra to survive, fine, if you are between jobs and need help getting by, fine. If you are making thousands of dollars a month on the side in cash that you don't report to the government and are getting a welfare check, then die, scum, die.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie347 View Post
    HAH! I think you're twisting that statement way out of proportion. It is one that is very pro-socialist.

    You're right, we do need to stop thinking about the individual and start thinking about the society. We need to limit individuals, the ones at the top. Higher tax rates on big business and federally enforced salary caps would be a good place to start. The stock market is one of the worst things ever for a free economy, it takes away from the value of the business and looks solely to the profits. You lose any importance behind the service, the shareholders become the only ones who matter, for whatever stupid reason. Business need to turn those profits into benefits for their *employees*, not their shareholders.
    You may find this funny, but I agree (to an extent [like I said, I'm strange]) I think we need fixes on both sides of the spectrum it just was OT for this thread on minimum wage, I felt. It's disgusting how much some people get paid for things these days. I wouldn't stop at just corporate execs and Wall Street fund managers. Actors making $10M+ a movie, athletes on $100M+ contracts, celebrities who don't actually do anything but get paid millions of dollars a year just to show up at places. It's absurd.

    As you point out, publicly traded companies have a 'duty' to their shareholders to maximize profits, but they've got a CEO making $17M a year after benefits and options, how the hell does that maximize profits? And don't tell me he's worth it, CEOs are just big picture, direction based guys. Their assistants and aides do about as much work as they do, they are largely a face and make decisions that just about anyone with half a brain about running a business could make given the amount of help they are given.

    Anyway, another topic for another time, but no, I don't hate on just the lower end of the financial spectrum.
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  13. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    Wow, that sucks. My job lets me insure a whole family for $200 a month.

    Maybe I just got blessed with a good job that pays a "bad" wage in the "ass end of nowhere" that happens to be a famous tourist attraction?

    And my girlfriend is on birth control so we don't have children.
    Well your job is covering the rest of the cost of healthcare as a benefit to you for working there. My job gives me all my money and lets me buy my own insurance. I'd rather buy my own policy.

    What's funny is, my wife was on birth control when we had our first kid. At least that's what she told me.

  14. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Well I'd hope so seeing how they'd probably just die of starvation otherwise apparently. I'd love to see your metric backing up "stronger economy" as well lol.
    Greater social mobility and greater buying power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #995
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...onique-de-rugy

    Mark Wilson has a Cato Institute study about the impact of minimum wage that is also a great read. The study lists other consequences of raising the minimum wage:

    -Increasing the likelihood and duration of unemployment for low-wage workers, particularly during economic downturns;
    -Encouraging employers to cut worker training;
    -Increasing job turnover;
    -Discouraging part-time work and reducing school attendance;
    -Driving workers into uncovered jobs, thus reducing wages in those sectors;
    -Encouraging employers to cut back on fringe benefits (that’s the substitution of capital for labor)
    -Encouraging employers to install labor saving devices;
    -Increasing inflationary pressure;
    -Increasing teenage crime rates as a result of higher unemployment; and
    -Encouraging employers to hire illegal aliens.

  16. #996
    calling the policies used in Spain and Greece "socialist" is down right laughable.

  17. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Yeah just look at how well all these socialist European countries are doing:
    (Australia's minimum wage was 16.85 AUD an hour on that date, and they're markedly more socialist than America)
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What's worse is that it's really basic math.

    Let's say you're selling widgets for $5, and they cost $3 to produce, giving you a net profit of $2 per widget. Let's even exaggerate most wage costs because your widgets are hand-made; your labor costs are 50% of the total production cost, or $1.50.

    Now, let's say wages double.

    That means your production cost is now $4.50. You could still make a profit, selling at $5, but you want to protect your profit margins, so you start selling them for $6.50. This means you keep making $2/widget, and the price increase is just under 25%.

    Now, apply that to all industries. Prices have gone up 25% across the board. That sounds bad, right?

    You're forgetting that wages went up 100%. Net buying power increased.
    .
    But wages only went up 100% for those making minimum wage, those of making more than the new minimum wage wouldnt see that increase and we would pay more for the same stuff

  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Yeah just look at how well all these socialist European countries are doing:

    I want to point out that Iceland arrested the bankers who shit on their economy (unlike everyone else) and rebounded.
    You're also leaving out a shit ton of countries.

  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Yeah just look at how well all these socialist European countries are doing:
    And let's take a look at quality of life indexes and see where a lot of those Euro countries stand


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