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  1. #1021
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    "Free minds for free markets"? Totally impartial source there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #1022
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Really? Spain, Greece, the UK, and Australia arent Socialist?
    No, No, sort of, sort of?

    I'm surprised you think Australia is European.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaenavenBlacksun View Post
    Unfortunately, your list of factors have no real weight. Being someone who only has the education to work BS retail jobs, I have watched companies downside greatly over minimum wage increases. Imagine trying to do a sales floor job, and being called to run a register, go pull a bicycle off a rack across the store, do a group of hunting/fishing licenses AND cover someone else's department...all within the same ten minute period because a company can't be arsed to hire enough people to cover all these areas. AND, to top it off, know that each department is only allowed to schedule ONE person per block of hours, two at the most, meaning a department that obviously needs 8 people to run efficiently is only allowed to have 3.

    That is the reality of being in the middle of this clusterfluff.

    I also know that these companies wouldn't scale the pay of other employees, so my department manager hubby who makes $13/hr currently, would still only make that much after bumping minimum $2, knocking his pay down to the equivalent to of a cashier.
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #1024
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    And they are on the list of countries likely to go bankrupt
    That infographic was not a "list of countries likely to go bankrupt". And many of them are less likely to do so than the US, despite higher minimum wages and so on.

    Not only does it not support your claim, but the correlation you're claiming to see doesn't even exist in the data it presents.


  5. #1025
    Banned Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    In my country the minimum wage is set for €7,76 per hour if you live alone*, if you have kids it goes up substantially.

    Those people also get a lot of tax reductions and benefits so it ends up being double if you add them together.

    I don't think $10 per hour is a lot, USA can afford it.
    A law like that just encourages businesses to just not hire people with kids

  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Yeah just look at how well all these socialist European countries are doing:

    *snip*
    thecomingdepression.com
    thedailygold.com

    Yeah, those sound like really credible sources.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  7. #1027
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    No, No, sort of, sort of?

    I'm surprised you think Australia is European.
    Culturally I'd say it's more European than not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #1028
    Yet they have no issue giving themselves pay raises now do they? I guess bribes alone just can't cut it these days.

  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    A law like that just encourages businesses to just not hire people with kids
    Europe also has fairly stringent privacy standards. I don't believe businesses are allowed to ask you about your personal life there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    The fact you think the UK even has a chance of going bankrupt is hilarious. If the UKs economy continues to grow as it does, it will be the biggest economy in Europe within 15 years, overtaking Germany.
    The chart I linked shows the UK has a 20% chance year over year of going bankrupt

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    "Free minds for free markets"? Totally impartial source there.
    Please discuss and counter each point rather than dismiss it based on a source you disagree with.

  12. #1032
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    Would be better if they gave tax deductions to people working minimum wage who live in urban areas where cost of living is high instead.

    Example:
    Live in NYC = 20% deduction on income taxes
    Live in the middle of north dakota = 0% deduction

    And then raise the tax property tax on business with lots of minimum wage jobs in urban areas to pay for it.
    Last edited by mmocff76f9a79b; 2014-05-01 at 06:10 PM.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Dotcha View Post
    The big items that really matter are way, way off. Rent in a US city centre $1000 for a one bed? $750 outside the city centre? What a joke its more like $1800 and $1200. At least where I am.

    If you are in the middle of nowhere, like Montana or Wisconsin perhaps two people could get by on minimum wage. But the majority of the country lives in states where the cost of living is twice as much but the minimum wage is only 10% higher.
    I rent an apartment for less then $500 a month where I live. I'm not blind to the fact you can't apply a set rate on anything with the way everything varies across the US. That's exactly the point I'm arguing, because that's exactly what the minimum wage is, a set rate across a country as varied as the US. An increase in the minimum wage would likely be catastrophic in my area, and I'm not remotely joking when I say that. That's the part the Democrats just really either don't see or choose to ignore since a ton of their constituents ARE from areas that will likely see less of a bad impact from it and more of the beneficial side of it. It's also why you see most of the lower cost of living, midwestern states like mine go Republican, and fight things like this.

  14. #1034
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The chart I linked shows the UK has a 20% chance year over year of going bankrupt
    The same chart shows the US has a 3% chance of the same.

    And yet, Canada's not at risk at all.

    It's almost like it doesn't support what you're claiming it does, at all.


  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What's worse is that it's really basic math.

    Let's say you're selling widgets for $5, and they cost $3 to produce, giving you a net profit of $2 per widget. Let's even exaggerate most wage costs because your widgets are hand-made; your labor costs are 50% of the total production cost, or $1.50.

    Now, let's say wages double.

    That means your production cost is now $4.50. You could still make a profit, selling at $5, but you want to protect your profit margins, so you start selling them for $6.50. This means you keep making $2/widget, and the price increase is just under 25%.

    Now, apply that to all industries. Prices have gone up 25% across the board. That sounds bad, right?

    You're forgetting that wages went up 100%. Net buying power increased.

    The only way that a wage increase to labor costs can mean an increase in prices in a 1:1 ratio, resulting in no gains to actual net buying power for those whose wages increased, is if labor is 100% of your production costs, and you have a razor-thin profit margin. Which is basically not true of any business out there, or at least no successful one.

    This isn't political. It's simple, basic math. The numbers don't lie; wage increases cannot lead to price increases on a 1:1 ratio, not without some additional factor affecting that final price, like the owner increasing their profit margins. This isn't a libs vs. cons thing, or a dems vs. repubs; it's straight up proportional math.
    Exactly. Those who say that the cost of burgers would double if wages doubled assume that the ONLY cost of making a burger is the labor (one worker) who takes ONE HOUR to make ONE burger. It disregards the cost of materials, franchising, utilities, etc. all of the other costs that AREN'T labor. It then assumes that ONE product X (burger) takes ONE HOUR to make for ONE WORKER.

    They're throwing all reality and facts out the window in favor of rhetoric that sounds good. But rhetoric has always been more warm and fuzzy to conservatives than cold hard facts.
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  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by SL1200 View Post
    Your "let em die" position firmly places you in the far right wing.
    Yes, and my 'Woman's right to choose' & 'Organized religion is a societal evil' positions get me booted out of that club, so where does that land me? My point wasn't let them die, you ignorant post skimming twit, my point was that people DO die, and acting like it's the end of the world is just going to blow problems out of proportion. OBVIOUSLY I don't think we should just cut welfare and let nature take it's course, our entire society would begin to breakdown, only completely idiotic right wing lunatics actually think that could work.

    We need to take steps to curb some of the abuses of welfare, find ways to increase the available jobs for unskilled individuals that will allow them to get some training and develop transferrable skills (that's a tough one, I know), reduce the ways for corporations to essentially buy and sell political power, and put more spending money in the hands of the poor and lower middle class.

    I know Republicans like to cite 'trickle down economics' but frankly that doesn't work in a global economy. Corporations and billionaires can just as easily invest their money overseas as they do here. If you give a low income American family an extra $500, there's about a 98% chance that money will be back in circulation, spent on goods here in America, within 2 weeks. So, personally, I think we NEED welfare, the money ends up in the same place either way, it just circulates a bit more because of it. The problem, to me, has more to do with government overhead than it does with giving assistance to people who need it.
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  17. #1037
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Culturally I'd say it's more European than not.
    I know, but it's not in Europe.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    I rent an apartment for less then $500 a month where I live. I'm not blind to the fact you can't apply a set rate on anything with the way everything varies across the US. That's exactly the point I'm arguing, because that's exactly what the minimum wage is, a set rate across a country as varied as the US. An increase in the minimum wage would likely be catastrophic in my area, and I'm not remotely joking when I say that. That's the part the Democrats just really either don't see or choose to ignore since a ton of their constituents ARE from areas that will likely see less of a bad impact from it and more of the beneficial side of it. It's also why you see most of the lower cost of living, midwestern states like mine go Republican, and fight things like this.
    The greater good, projections said up to 500,000 jobs could be lost. But 15% of the population is considered in poverty, or 46,500,000. A minimum wage increase would half that.

    As for the 'catastrophic' effect you think it would have, pretty sure businesses would prefer to remain functioning at a minimum increase to operating costs, versus firing staff and not being able to function.
    Last edited by TheTaurenOrc; 2014-05-01 at 06:15 PM.

  19. #1039
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezmaefele View Post
    Please discuss and counter each point rather than dismiss it based on a source you disagree with.
    I've already refuted it. It hasn't happened in countries that have far higher minimum wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #1040
    Banned Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    And let's be clear; they are related. The reason the US needs an increase to the minimum wage is that it has not kept pace with inflation. Many people's middle-class incomes come with expected cost-of-living pay raises every year or two. Those are the wages being increased to account for this kind of thing. It's already happening, despite your claims that it wouldn't. You're ignoring reality.
    Starting minimum wage hasnt kept pace with inflation maybe, but people who were making minimum wage when it became $7.75 arent still making minimum wage unless they are a shitty worker or are constantly job hopping. If you got hired at $7.75 when it became minimum wage and stayed at that company, youre likely making at LEAST $10 now and probably more with promotions. Its only people getting their first job or shitty workers who get a new job every 6 months that are actually getting minimum wage. In fact places like McDonalds give out raises after 90 days if you stay there that long, and work harder than just enough to get by, so those formerly minimum wage earners ARE getting raises to adjust for cost of living unless they are shitty

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