Remove LFR completely?

[Meiluy]

I disagree with those asking for it to be removed, but it does affect the entire community. When those who queue for LFR and get all purples and decent gear, it almost takes away their carrot on a stick, so to speak. If there is such easy accessibility to very decent gear, why put in the effort to improving your knowledge of your class, learning boss mechanics, being social and joining a guild? The myth that people need 20-30 hours a week to raid heroic modes is kind of 2009. It's just not necessary. Our 25M guild raids about 6-9 hours a week (depending on peoples lateness) and we're nearly 11/14 heroic mode, almost have Heroic Spoils down. If someone in Shrine sees my gear, but they have "beaten" LFR and have full purples.. it really gives him no reason to want to improve and play better and better the WoW community as a whole. The more better, knowledgeable players in the community, the better the game as a whole will be.

Purples haven't meant anything since Wrath, so don't get so caught up on that thing. Keep in mind, that while an LFR player may have all their purples from SoO and you're only halfway through gearing SoO normal with the rest ToT Normal, you STILL have better gear than them over all. As far as giving them no motive, if they want to experience the harder raiding, there's nothing necessarily stopping them from doing so. If LFR didn't exist, they just wouldn't raid. LFR existing means more players have a reason to continue paying $15 a month to play, and business wise that's a good thing. Heck, community-wise that's a good thing. I know three guildies who have fallen in love with Raiding because of LFR, when before they thought it a waste of time. They are some of our best DPSers (and one tank) in our Normal runs now.

[Feeline10]

Purples haven't meant anything since Wrath, so don't get so caught up on that thing. Keep in mind, that while an LFR player may have all their purples from SoO and you're only halfway through gearing SoO normal with the rest ToT Normal, you STILL have better gear than them over all. As far as giving them no motive, if they want to experience the harder raiding, there's nothing necessarily stopping them from doing so. If LFR didn't exist, they just wouldn't raid. LFR existing means more players have a reason to continue paying $15 a month to play, and business wise that's a good thing. Heck, community-wise that's a good thing. I know three guildies who have fallen in love with Raiding because of LFR, when before they thought it a waste of time. They are some of our best DPSers (and one tank) in our Normal runs now.

Agreed. The more people subscribed, the more money, the more they can hire, the better the game, etc.. that's an easy concept to understand. However, the feeling of seeing others in SW or Org and wanting to achieve their status and get the gear they got is gone. That magical feeling of seeing someone who has achieved far more, and continuing to subscribe in hopes of improving and getting on their level. I believe that's how most MMO's get their popularity.. at least the semi-successful ones. And WoW is really on another level when it comes to MMO's and the genre-defining features they implement. It doesn't directly affect ANYONE when ANYONE runs a BG, a heroic dungeon, a scenario, or LFR.. but there are MANY MANY indirect ways LFR DOES affect the community. Mostly in a negative way. Some positive, but mostly negative.

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1) No one says, "Oh, 528, that's just like 570+ because it's purple.

2) No one says, "I beat the game because I did LFR."

3) If anyone DOES say those things, that person was never going to be "chasing the carrot" of heroic raids in the first place, so why does it matter?

You're missing my point, and that's okay.. I may not have been clear enough.

The only way to get that GOOD gear in the past was gearing up in heroic dungeons, and then getting in raiding. Now, all you have to do is hit "queue" and get into LFR, which is essentially the same raid but with zero rules, no raid leader, no mechanics, no anything. So, no, no one says "I've beaten the game because I've been carried through LFR." However, there is a hugely negative impact when those who would have initially taken the time to learn their class, get better, and take the dive into real raiding choose NOT to because they can do LFR.

This doesn't apply to those who don't have time to raid or scheduling issues or whatever. This is strictly for people who now don't want to take the time to learn to play and get into a guild and raid for real, but instead just hit a button and do, as Blizzard says, a scenic tour of the content they created. Granted.. Blizzard spends so, so many hours and tons of money creating these raids, they want all 7 million people to see it. But, once you take the exclusiveness away, the feeling of WANTING to get better at the game and learn your class to EARN better gear goes out the window for a lot of people.

[Sansnom]

That magical feeling of seeing someone who has achieved far more, and continuing to subscribe in hopes of improving and getting on their level.

That may applied to you. It certainly did not apply to me or the few friends I know who played WoW. We did not care who has what gear. Hero worship was not something I indulge in.

It doesn't directly affect ANYONE when ANYONE runs a BG, a heroic dungeon, a scenario, or LFR.. but there are MANY MANY indirect ways LFR DOES affect the community. Mostly in a negative way. Some positive, but mostly negative.

In what way? The main negative feeling I have noticed people have is the "privilege" of raiding is no longer there. Anyone can raid via LFR. Why is that a bad thing?

You're missing my point, and that's okay.. I may not have been clear enough.

The only way to get that GOOD gear in the past was gearing up in heroic dungeons, and then getting in raiding. Now, all you have to do is hit "queue" and get into LFR, which is essentially the same raid but with zero rules, no raid leader, no mechanics, no anything. So, no, no one says "I've beaten the game because I've been carried through LFR." However, there is a hugely negative impact when those who would have initially taken the time to learn their class, get better, and take the dive into real raiding choose NOT to because they can do LFR.

If people choose to run LFR rather than return to scheduled raiding, that is their choice. Why must you think you can tell them that is not the way and they must return to the old scheduled raiding? Why does people playing the differently, doing easier contents bothers you? If you don't feel they really raided, that is fine. If you don't think they really completed the game and did all that it has to offer, again, your rights.

But to go and tell people they are doing wrong, demand that LFR be removed simply you not agree with it, it is a bit, well, selfish isn't it?

Unless you are paying for their subs, you are in no position to tell them how to play the game. Why must you mold people into your ideal model of a raider?

[Firebert]

And that is exactly why LFR in WoD requires silver from PG.

It won't; Silver PG's required for Heroic dungeons. If you have Silver PG, it'll reduce the item level requirement to enter LFR, nothing more.

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Why do so many people forget that it's going to be a gearing alternative to doing Heroic Dungeons in WoD?

It's not; LFR gear > Heroic five-man gear.

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2) No one says, "I beat the game because I did LFR."

I beat the game because I did LFR.

3) If anyone DOES say those things, that person was never going to be "chasing the carrot" of heroic raids in the first place, so why does it matter?

I would be chasing the carrot of better gear (the REAL carrot) iff Flex/Normal/Heroic were easier to get into (that is, LF tool).

[Saucerian]

Honestly I'd rather they remove raiding completely and make more 5 mans.

But so long as they hang onto the "World of Everquest" PvE endgame, I'd prefer having something that lets me and the majority of the players at least see the content we're paying for.

[wych]

It won't; Silver PG's required for Heroic dungeons. If you have Silver PG, it'll reduce the item level requirement to enter LFR, nothing more.

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It's not; LFR gear > Heroic five-man gear.

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I beat the game because I did LFR.

I would be chasing the carrot of better gear (the REAL carrot) iff Flex/Normal/Heroic were easier to get into (that is, LF tool).

The LF tool for heroic at least would be so useless there's really no point at all of adding it.

The amount of time and weeks/months to clear past bosses in organised, voice comm'ed, skilled groups is way too large for any random matchmaking tool to fluke through.

[Deleted]

Leave LFR for the people who want to use it. The elitists and normal/progression raiders can still do their own thing.

[klogaroth]

I beat the game because I did LFR.

I sort of agree with you, but only because I know that you know that other raid modes are out there. You know that heroic raiding is probably not for you.

What I think Blizzard are looking at is people who don't know so much about the game. People who don't visit third party forums and have discussions about raiding.

There does genuinely seem to be a thing going on where new players can be totally unaware of the game outside of LFR, and think that it's this big, scary, impenetrable wall. People who in Wrath may have started off with a Naxx 10 run and gone on to trying heroic 25 man bosses. Right now I think there are newer players who in days past would have tried some sort of organised raiding, who aren't trying organised raiding anymore because they don't see any reason, or don't think they are able to go beyond LFR.

[cabyio]

I would be chasing the carrot of better gear (the REAL carrot) iff Flex/Normal/Heroic were easier to get into (that is, LF tool).

Let me fix that for ya.

I would be chasing the carrot of better gear (the REAL carrot) iff Flex/Normal/Heroic required zero social interaction to get into (that is, LF tool).

[RoKPaNda]

Sure we can remove LFR. I mean they're already catering to my people that want harder heroic 5-mans. That turned out brilliantly in Cataclysm after all.

[cabyio]

Sure we can remove LFR. I mean they're already catering to my people that want harder heroic 5-mans. That turned out brilliantly in Cataclysm after all.

Except this time heroic 5 mans are not really required for gear progression. You can go from normal dungeons to LFR really easy. I think it will be good because it will be nice for people who can actually operate their character correctly and the people who just roll their face on the keyboard can skip them and go to LFR.

[Flower Milk]

If it's not a path of gear progression ever again, then I don't care what they do with it. I just hope in the future I can run 5 mans instead and never have to deal with it ever again. If Blizzard doesn't keep their word on that, I'm done with WoW forever. Just as you want to keep LFR, I don't want to be pigeon holed into doing it, choices. "But you never had to do it". I'm sorry no, as much as you want to stick your fingers in your ears and claim this, it was not the reality, and even Blizzard felt that due to this some changes needed to be made. I just hope they stick by them and keep churning out more 5 mans, too. Please go back to the WoW I knew and loved for so many years!

[Firebert]

The amount of time and weeks/months to clear past bosses in organised, voice comm'ed, skilled groups is way too large for any random matchmaking tool to fluke through.

This would at least show random groups that there's something within easy reach that they can strive for. Currently it's behind "red tape", for a better term.

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Let me fix that for ya.

Please don't modify my quotes, thanks.

[Courierrawr]

Remove LFR and delete every account that has no downed normal mode+ bosses.

[Haven]

Remove it? Why? Who would that change even be for?

So that the elitists can enjoy the content that only they feel they deserve. And jerk off to Sunwell Plateau, which was visited by less than 5% of players.

[InfinityRogue]

It needs to exist in some way in some form for the casual horde of players that want to experience the story.

[Icaras]

Any time I vote in one of these the votes are always in favor of keeping LFR, lol.

[klogaroth]

Partly because it IS a big, scary, impenetrable wall. LFR is toxic enough as it is, but at least you're generally guaranteed to get in a group and stay in it. Past that, trying and failing day after day to get into a Flex+ group with no experience, a bunch of 528 gear, possibly/probably no cloak, and absurd expectations from the community...yeah, it probably only goes to reinforce their perception that raiders are just a bunch of dicks.

(In before all the, "But my alt got into a normal mode raid with only 450 gear and a fishing rod!" or "But my guild recruits people fresh off the Timeless Isle all the time!" crap.)

It's not as impenetrable as people make it out to be. I'm not going to lie and say finding a decent group is easy. I'm going to reverse your inb4 and say today my alt was faced with 2 types of groups for flex. Ones that wouldn't take me, and ones that fell apart after a single wipe. That doesn't mean that character is never going to clear flex.

This far into a patch it's inevitable that many of the people who have already learnt the encounters want to group with other people who have learnt the encounters. They don't want to progress every time they go there. They've already done that bit. There's mostly a readily available supply of people with fairly high ilvls, legendary cloaks and achievements etc etc.

Hopefully the new group finder will level things out a bit come WoD, along with the gear reset and fact that knowledge of Siege isn't as relevant. Don't forget the group finder has a few notable features in this area:
- If you start a group you can't ask for a higher ilvl than your own.
- People will only see groups they can join. If you set the ilvl requirement too high nobody can see it and you'll never fill your group.
- It is fully cross realm. This makes it have a wide range of players you can reach, so should help people on dead servers or with a bit more unusual play times.

The point I'm trying to make is that the wall should get smaller. As much as the gap between LFR and flex might seem large, it's not as big as the gap between LFR and normal.

Any time I vote in one of these the votes are always in favor of keeping LFR, lol.

Of course it is. Lots of people like LFR. Removing it altogether does nobody any favours.

Would I like to see everyone in LFR move to doing mythic? Yes, yes I would. I think mythic sounds like it's going to be really good.
Clearly that isn't ever going to happen though. Faced with the choice of never entering a raid instance or doing mythic many people would just never enter a raid instance again. Which would be a terrible waste of the instances, and people wouldn't get to see the conclusion of the stories in the game.

What the more reasonable raiders are trying to convey about LFR is that it isn't the only option when it comes to the content, and that some people will find organised raiding engaging and enjoyable, but they haven't ever experienced it. Like anything there's going to be hurdles to get over, but they aren't insurmountable. There are people raiding right now in the likes of Blood Legion and Method who used to raid LFR. Now that's clearly not a style of raiding for everyone, but you get the point.

[Cannibalus]

In its current state? No.

In its new form in WoD? Yes.

100% agree. It will be a "tourist mode" where only off-pieces will drop.

[klogaroth]

100% agree. It will be a "tourist mode" where only off-pieces will drop.

That's what it's there for. If it's there as that it's clearly staying.