How to go about fighting a DK in Arena?

[rda]

i played both I dueled both, unholy beats WW

see how empty this statement is and how useless it is?

Look, I am telling what my experience is. If your experience is different, fine. If you think your experience means more than mine, that's fine by me, too. Maybe it even does. I will just say that I knew a couple of DKs and one monk with the same experience as mine (WW > unholy in duels), with ratings ranging from 1800 to 2300, and noone with yours.

It is a bit hard to answer your "why" without writing five pages of text, the question is too open-ended, that's all.

[Illana]

Look, I am telling what my experience is. If your experience is different, fine. If you think your experience means more than mine, that's fine by me, too. Maybe it even does. I will just say that I knew a couple of DKs and one monk with the same experience as mine (WW > unholy in duels), with ratings ranging from 1800 to 2300, and noone with yours.

It is a bit hard to answer your "why" without writing five pages of text, the question is too open-ended, that's all.

condense it then, give the key points of how a ww beats unholy.

[GodEmperor]

i played both I dueled both, unholy beats WW

see how empty this statement is and how useless it is?

He is absolutely right though. Maybe you're just playing it wrong. I play both too and as WW there's no way I can lose to an unholy. If you karma random shit, you're going to lose. DKs damage mostly come from diseases, WW can dispel that. DK's best burst comes during Gargoyle and the empowered ghoul and if you hit Karma at that time the DK just killed himself since there's no way he can get the gargoyle to stop attacking.

So, basically as WW, I completely remove DK's sustained damage aka diseases while completely negating their burst CDs with Karma all while having mobility that is a thousand times better than the DK.

But some parts in this thread I don't understand for example the person saying Arms beats unholy. I simply don't see that happening and I've fought a lot of good Arms warriors. In fact, the duel is not even close unless the warrior takes me by surprise at the start and gets 100k slam crits. Chain of ice spamming while weaving in and out stacking necrotics makes an arms warrior completely worthless. And the Gargoyle mostly soloes the warrior on its own.

[Raugnaut]

yeah nobody uses that glyph in competitive arena so I would have to be duelling a DK for which none of this discussion matters since duelling is a joke.

If you aren't using that glyph, and you are up against spriest, rogue, DK, and possibly hunter, you are doing it wrong.

For unholy, when they pop gargoyle, you pretty much have to control it somehow. My DK's gargoyle does 1.3 mil damage total before flying away, and thats with 550 ilvl in blood gear (dodge/parry build). I reckon that an unholy DK going mastery can get it up to 2 mil in PvP, which is a whopping 460k damage. Combine that with their own damage, and unholy DK has rocking burst.

[Illana]

He is absolutely right though. Maybe you're just playing it wrong. I play both too and as WW there's no way I can lose to an unholy. If you karma random shit, you're going to lose. DKs damage mostly come from diseases, WW can dispel that. DK's best burst comes during Gargoyle and the empowered ghoul and if you hit Karma at that time the DK just killed himself since there's no way he can get the gargoyle to stop attacking.

So, basically as WW, I completely remove DK's sustained damage aka diseases while completely negating their burst CDs with Karma all while having mobility that is a thousand times better than the DK.

But some parts in this thread I don't understand for example the person saying Arms beats unholy. I simply don't see that happening and I've fought a lot of good Arms warriors. In fact, the duel is not even close unless the warrior takes me by surprise at the start and gets 100k slam crits. Chain of ice spamming while weaving in and out stacking necrotics makes an arms warrior completely worthless. And the Gargoyle mostly soloes the warrior on its own.

You can dismiss gargoyle and I don't see why you would ever pop it until after karma.

Dispel has an 8 second cd and also costs a global and energy that a monk needs to generate chi plus DKs can just insta reapply diseases with plague strike. Monks also have very little armour so festering strike actually hurts.

And I don't see how karma isn't completely countered by AMS.

Mobility doesn't matter from my experience, if you run from a DK he's just going to get the upper hand since it takes you a LOT longer to kill a DK than it takes for him to kill you.

[rda]

condense it then, give the key points of how a ww beats unholy.

Write a youtube of your duel as WW monk against unholy DK showing the UI, and I might try to tell you what you are doing wrong.

[Illana]

If you aren't using that glyph, and you are up against spriest, rogue, DK, and possibly hunter, you are doing it wrong.

For unholy, when they pop gargoyle, you pretty much have to control it somehow. My DK's gargoyle does 1.3 mil damage total before flying away, and thats with 550 ilvl in blood gear (dodge/parry build). I reckon that an unholy DK going mastery can get it up to 2 mil in PvP, which is a whopping 460k damage. Combine that with their own damage, and unholy DK has rocking burst.

oh wauw that 5% heal going to matter so much.

Dispelling poison's from a rogue is almost pointless also. Dispelling DP is probably the ONLY real application of this glyph and still I don't think the 5% heal matters.

- - - Updated - - -

Write a youtube of your duel as WW monk against unholy DK showing the UI, and I might try to tell you what you are doing wrong.

or you could just tell me now instead of just avoiding the discussion.

[rda]

or you could just tell me now instead of just avoiding the discussion.

Again, you are asking a question that is too broad. You want a short answer? Fine. You beat unholy as ww by using your abilities. Satisfied? Of course, not. But that's what you demand - a short answer to a complex question. I plain don't know what it is that you are doing wrong. It's too broad. If you want help, you have to be more specific. That's it. (Seriously, record one of your duels and post it here. That is, if you really want help.)

[Boricha]

WW Monks are imo the undeniable best 1v1 class. UH DKs have some good initial burst and and they generally win long term fights against most classes, but their survivability just isn't really there. If you have anyway to immune or avoid their CD burst then it's really hard to lose.

[Illana]

Again, you are asking a question that is too broad. You want a short answer? Fine. You beat unholy as ww by using your abilities. Satisfied? Of course, not. But that's what you demand - a short answer to a complex question. I plain don't know what it is that you are doing wrong. It's too broad. If you want help, you have to be more specific. That's it. (Seriously, record one of your duels and post it here. That is, if you really want help.)

i said give me key points, not a useless answer. There's got to be a few things that you MUST do vs a DK to make the match up completely in the monk's favour.

For example if I was going to tell you how to fight a rogue as a hunter I would tell you that:

You MUST flare during the fight
You MUST roar of sac when he is stunning you and hitting you
You MUST trinket the stun you don't have roar of sac up for
You MUST keep your pet hitting the rogue if he blinds you

and again: I don't care about duels. I care about when there's a cross kill in arena and I have to face a DK 1vs1.

[GodEmperor]

You can dismiss gargoyle and I don't see why you would ever pop it until after karma.

Dispel has an 8 second cd and also costs a global and energy that a monk needs to generate chi plus DKs can just insta reapply diseases with plague strike. Monks also have very little armour so festering strike actually hurts.

And I don't see how karma isn't completely countered by AMS.

Why would you pop Karma unless he's bursting? Windwalker heals outheal the diseases even if you're not dispelling them. You don't have to dispel every time he applies the diseases, only the ones that the DK has applied with CDs up. Diseases without CDs don't even hurt much. If the DK managed to somehow stack necrotics, you port out or roll or fly out letting the stacks die out.

So, a Windwalker monk can negate DK's burst since we're sending the garg away when we spot Karma, all while being able to dispel diseases on CD and while having healing that is much better than a dk and while also having mobility that is much better than DK and yet somehow DK counters a windwalker?

As for Conversion, especially with the double tap macro, I can prolong the death spamming it and chains of ice but it's nothing compared to my Windwalkers self heals.

Mobility doesn't matter from my experience, if you run from a DK he's just going to get the upper hand since it takes you a LOT longer to kill a DK than it takes for him to kill you.

Wat the. Any time you are low on health on any class, you try to LOS the other person to get some breathing space while you heal. As a windwalker, this is done by rooting the DK, then using one of the 4 mobility tools to go away and heal up. And in usual cases, one of these mobility spells are always available since they have short CDs.

As a DK that's low on health, you don't have any of those. In fact, even to heal with conversion we have to have runic power which we can only get by being in close range or spamming chains of ice or other melee attacks.

[rda]

i said give me key points, not a useless answer. There's got to be a few things that you MUST do vs a DK to make the match up completely in the monk's favour.

For example if I was going to tell you how to fight a rogue as a hunter I would tell you that:

You MUST flare during the fight
You MUST roar of sac when he is stunning you and hitting you
You MUST trinket the stun you don't have roar of sac up for
You MUST keep your pet hitting the rogue if he blinds you

and again: I don't care about duels. I care about when there's a cross kill in arena and I have to face a DK 1vs1.

Look, I thought it's about duels, but if it is about arenas and facing a DK 1v1 with god knows what CDs you or him still have, it depends even more on WHAT EXACTLY IS THE SITUATION. Get it? It depends. Details matter. Your question is even broader than I thought.

But fine. You want simple answers in terms of must do X, must not do Y. Alright. It's going to be useless, but let's try:

You must CC + LOS his burst.
You must force his trinkets with FoF when you can do damage. Stunning into death grip works best.
You only have to dispel his diseases after he started his burst, only dispel them otherwise if you have nothing else to do.
You have to prepare your burst by getting RSK up, TP up, 10 stacks of TEB. Then you do: TEB -> LSweep -> Xuen -> RSK -> Chi Wave -> TP -> Jab -> FoF. (Thank Lightning for this.)

Don't know how useful this is, but hey, you wanted something short...

(Added later...)

Also, bookmark this channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/BearwowEU/videos

You might find something for you.

[Illana]

Why would you pop Karma unless he's bursting? Windwalker heals outheal the diseases even if you're not dispelling them. You don't have to dispel every time he applies the diseases, only the ones that the DK has applied with CDs up. Diseases without CDs don't even hurt much. If the DK managed to somehow stack necrotics, you port out or roll or fly out letting the stacks die out.

So, a Windwalker monk can negate DK's burst since we're sending the garg away when we spot Karma, all while being able to dispel diseases on CD and while having healing that is much better than a dk and while also having mobility that is much better than DK and yet somehow DK counters a windwalker?

As for Conversion, especially with the double tap macro, I can prolong the death spamming it and chains of ice but it's nothing compared to my Windwalkers self heals.



Wat the. Any time you are low on health on any class, you try to LOS the other person to get some breathing space while you heal. As a windwalker, this is done by rooting the DK, then using one of the 4 mobility tools to go away and heal up. And in usual cases, one of these mobility spells are always available since they have short CDs.

As a DK that's low on health, you don't have any of those. In fact, even to heal with conversion we have to have runic power which we can only get by being in close range or spamming chains of ice or other melee attacks.

yeah we can outheal diseases, what about the necrotics, festering strikes, auto attack crits for 30k+, pet attacks and death coils? DK can kill me without garg no problems.

If i kite out the necrotics it just gives him time to recover and again: they do more damage to me than I can do to them.

WW self healing consists of expel harm, chi wave and healing elixirs. You could count spheres but that just means you aren't doing any damage. Chi wave with cds heals for maybe 35k-40k crit ticks. Expel harm I've only ever seen about 110k crit and healing elixirs is about the same but doesn't necessarily heal every 18 seconds unless you waste a partially stacked brew on it.

I never said DKs counter ww in 1vs1 but it's nowhere near as black and white as some people are trying to make it out to be.

[Stormkhan]

every class can beat a dk except ele shamans

[Hand Banana]

again: why? I don't see how a WW can win 1vs1 against a DK

The big thing your missing is 1) Monks have an insane amount of passive avoidance (sparring glyph inc) and dks run with as little expertise as possible (mine has ~5%). 2) We don't run with disarm reduction. Getting anything actually done on a monk is nearly impossible. The last time I dueled one I connected 2 out of 9 necrotic attempts according to recount. I can't even keep dots on him because he dispels them then avoids all my plague strikes. Its the most frustrating class to fight, and with the sparring glyph he even avoids my spells 15% of the time which is super awesome. That entire time I spend 4 gcds trying to connect a necrotic I get dropped to 50% and the monk's health has gone up. I don't know enough about monks but they absolutely destroy dks.

[deathgrinder]

You focus and burst them and they go down, just like locks. Not much you can do unless you are good and/or have a healer.

I thought this was common knowledge.

[Icecreamcake]

WW monk will generally destroy a DK, indeed, assuming equal skill level.

But, OP, that doesn't answer your question. What spec are you playing?

I play a Rogue, but in general I'm unfamiliar with DKs.

[Illana]

The big thing your missing is 1) Monks have an insane amount of passive avoidance (sparring glyph inc) and dks run with as little expertise as possible (mine has ~5%). 2) We don't run with disarm reduction. Getting anything actually done on a monk is nearly impossible. The last time I dueled one I connected 2 out of 9 necrotic attempts according to recount. I can't even keep dots on him because he dispels them then avoids all my plague strikes. Its the most frustrating class to fight, and with the sparring glyph he even avoids my spells 15% of the time which is super awesome. That entire time I spend 4 gcds trying to connect a necrotic I get dropped to 50% and the monk's health has gone up. I don't know enough about monks but they absolutely destroy dks.

goes both ways, DKs have almost 33% parry and more when their trinkets and weapon procs. Getting my RSK parried is MUCH worse than DKs getting stuff avoided since my RSK goes on CD and DKs things don't have cds. Plus asphyxiate doesn't rely on avoidance (but yes can be deflected if the monk is running the glyph) and on a MUCH short cd than nimble and trinket.

[cerebro]

I main a DK in PvP, I will give you some tips on how to kill an unholy DK.

1. Are you a caster?
Yes: Silence the DK, and pump as much damage as possible on him. At this point he will more than likely Asphyxiate you and pop all his CDs.
Can you LOS?
Yes: Just line his attacks Trinket the asphyxiate he doesn't have any other cc's
No: CC his Gargoyle, that thing will kill you. Keep max distance from DK, do not use your teleport/blink/gtfo abilities until he blows his Death Grip (remember dk can double grip)

No: Kite during IBF, stun the DK during Unholy Frenzy and blow all your CD's. (frenzy causes the dk to take damage)
- If you have additional ranged CC, use it on the Gargoyle.

General Tips:
- Keep pet on follow if you are not engaging the DK, if you leave a pet on DK that just gives him free Death Strike heals and additional RP for Conversion
- If you got the DK >40% , DO NOT go on the defensive. Once you got a DK low, it is difficult to maintain pressure + heal. The biggest mistake people do is try and LOS when both at low hp, the longer the fight goes the better because in blood presence I do not regen runes as fast.
- Don't bother killing the ghoul, if you can cc it great. Don't kill it unless you can multidot, 1 min cd to resummon.
- Trinket Asphyxiates not Gnaw.
- Kiting a DK isn't about distance but LOS, DK's do not have a way to slow you while out of LOS
- If you are below 35% hp, do not let soul reaper go off on you without popping a defensive. It is the hardest hitting ability a DK has.
- Dispel diseases, while he can just reapply them thats a GCD/Rune hes using on applying diseases rather than killing you.
- Don't stack with your pet or partner, makes it really easy to spread diseases and maintain pressure.
- Open with Spell Reflection most DK's open w/ Outbreak
- When DK places Dark Simulacrum do not finish your cast, use a useless spell. (cant count the amount of times ive stolen fear)
- CC, don't go toe to toe vs a dk. You will lose, you have to be inventive and cc him as much as possible and slowly drain his life away. For ex if your a hunter, scatter/trap/explosive trap him away/chimarea+aimed shot combo/kite .. rinse repeat.

[Hand Banana]

goes both ways, DKs have almost 33% parry and more when their trinkets and weapon procs. Getting my RSK parried is MUCH worse than DKs getting stuff avoided since my RSK goes on CD and DKs things don't have cds. Plus asphyxiate doesn't rely on avoidance (but yes can be deflected if the monk is running the glyph) and on a MUCH short cd than nimble and trinket.

Again, I don't know for sure cause I don't have a monk, but I don't think fists of fury is parryable either. At least I can't remember ever avoiding it, and thats an even shorter cd than asphyxiate. Either way, I realize the dk is tough to kill too, but you just can't get damage on a monk. Ring of peace stops anything and everything a dk can do, an additional disarm, stuns, roots, high avoidance, its just frustrating to fight. Good monks will see gargoyle, karma and chain silence me so I can't AMS, SHS -> ring of peace - > FoF to force a trinket if I still have any, by that time karma is already ticking for 20k+ per second on me and the monk is beating me into the ground taking 0 damage. Its more the fact that the dk has to rely on conversion to keep him up and has no HOLY SHIT cds to save his life, and after about 30 seconds you exhaust all ur cds and runes and you can't maintain proper damage with conversion still up. Maintaining the RP for conv is tough since he avoids so many of your strikes. Basically just survive the garg (if you don't kill me b4 its over) and you win easily.