Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[Tierbook]

Conspiracy? It has the same validity as your theory. Cause at the end of the day, since nothing is prove, both sides are theoretical.

My theory is that the rebels shot it down.

[Ulmita]

My theory is that the rebels shot it down.

And i told you mine: My theory is that the Ukrainians shot it down since:
-All countries including Americans buried down the incident once the international agencies concluded their research.
-Americans were called 1000000 times to give out their "evidence" and they never did
-Ukrainians were asked to give out the conversation between flight and tower and why they asked the plane to fly over the warzone and they never did.
-Most importantly Separatists HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN, rather they have to loose everything, while Ukrainians and their Western partners have the whole world to win

If you add 1+1 you get 2

[Zdrasti]

And i told you mine: My theory is that the Ukrainians shot it down since:
-All countries including Americans buried down the incident once the international agencies concluded their research.
-Americans were called 1000000 times to give out their "evidence" and they never did
-Ukrainians were asked to give out the conversation between flight and tower and why they asked the plane to fly over the warzone and they never did.
-Most importantly Separatists HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN, rather they have to loose everything, while Ukrainians and their Western partners have the whole world to win

If you add 1+1 you get 2

Let's turn your argument around for a moment, just for funsies. Why put the onus on the US, why not put it on Russia? America is half the world away and they're primarily focused on the middle east. Russia on the other hand is right next door, has massed troops a short distance from the site, and has everything to lose from being blamed for this attack. Why isn't Russia presenting damning evidence that proves Ukraine did it?

Either that evidence doesn't exist or Russia is utterly incompetent. And strangely enough 1+1 still equals 2.

[Marcellus1986]

And i told you mine: My theory is that the Ukrainians shot it down since:
-All countries including Americans buried down the incident once the international agencies concluded their research.
-Americans were called 1000000 times to give out their "evidence" and they never did
-Ukrainians were asked to give out the conversation between flight and tower and why they asked the plane to fly over the warzone and they never did.
-Most importantly Separatists HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN, rather they have to loose everything, while Ukrainians and their Western partners have the whole world to win

If you add 1+1 you get 2

-It's called mainstream media. Once they leech all they can from a story they move onto something else. Has nothing to do with your stupid conspiracy theory.
-America released just as much "evidence" as Russia did.
-What does the flight tower recording have to do with the plane crash?
-There is no conspiracy going on. The separatists, if they shot it down, did it by accident. There was no malice in the shooting. The malice came afterwards when they made a spectacle of denying site access and tampering with the site.

[malgin]

I don't know how they are going investigate the crash. May be using wargames, IL-2 games, may be asking fortuneteller is a good way to get answers. WHo knows.

Ukraine should have to gather everything from crash-site and reconstruct the plane. Instead of that they were doing nothing like it was with Russian Ту-154М destroyed back in 2001.

[Ulmita]

Let's turn your argument around for a moment, just for funsies. Why put the onus on the US, why not put it on Russia? America is half the world away and they're primarily focused on the middle east. Russia on the other hand is right next door, has massed troops a short distance from the site, and has everything to lose from being blamed for this attack. Why isn't Russia presenting damning evidence that proves Ukraine did it?

Either that evidence doesn't exist or Russia is utterly incompetent. And strangely enough 1+1 still equals 2.

Because as soon as the plane crushed the Muricans started their usual propaganda non-stop. We got evidence that the separatists did it, but we aint releasing shit.. (i wonder why)

- - - Updated - - -

-America released just as much "evidence" as Russia did.

No they didn't. Infact they didn't release anything, in comparison to the Russians that they did.

-What does the flight tower recording have to do with the plane crash?

Russians asked a very valid question: Why did the plane change route last minute? Why Kiev isn't releasing what was said between tower and plane?

--> Let's all hope Ukraine is not offered a NATO spot tomorrow, for the good of all man kind

[Deleted]

Man, I wish they start a war after all the bullshit I hear in German media. Its basically non-stop portraying US as good (lets forget that the USA invaded 4 countries, some of them twice, in the last 10 years), because Osama travelled to the Baltic States and assured NATO assistence to them incase Russia will be invading them also (lol - and also lol² that he cant assure shit.... AND he also ignored NATO decisions in the past).

German media is known for this type of brainwashing all the time (its easy with how stupid Germans are in this regard), but its getting too much currently.

[Megraam]

A year? Really? :/

Well, guess we'll see what they'll have in preliminary part in a week...

Faking evidence to create a picture they need instead of a real one takes a lot of time.

[Ravenblade]

They had such option in March/April; now they don't.

The only somewhat realistic way Kiev could slow down momentum now is if they would surrender entire Lugansk and Donetsk oblast to separatists (not the area they control now) and withdraw 40km from those borders to try freezing situation this way. Then they might get outside support to do that and some rebels might think it's enough concession from Kiev to regroup and start restoring infrastructure first before making more military gains.

..otherwise it's clearly "To Kiev" all the way.

So in short: Move now or move later. You really think Kiev would just sit there saying: "Okay, let them regroup first so they can properly attack us later."?
Last I heard their leadership was moderating their demands and would accept a greater level of autonomy instead if federalization - which is by the way supported - is being agreed to. Frankly it seems the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing over there, one time you hear they will moderate, next you hear them hardlining again, then you hear of peace offer, rejection of peace offers. As usual any ongoing conflict is usually accompanied by hardliners saying no and blame games. It's pretty simple: peace can only happen if both sides truly want it. Seems neither side really does indeed want it. Which is not good, really. (to put it mildly)

Man, I wish they start a war after all the bullshit I hear in German media. Its basically non-stop portraying US as good (lets forget that the USA invaded 4 countries, some of them twice, in the last 10 years), because Osama travelled to the Baltic States and assured NATO assistence to them incase Russia will be invading them also (lol - and also lol² that he cant assure shit.... AND he also ignored NATO decisions in the past).

German media is known for this type of brainwashing all the time (its easy with how stupid Germans are in this regard), but its getting too much currently.

If Germans are so brainwashed then why according to polls have they a dropping opinion of the US, are split over sanctions, show an understanding of Russia feeling threatened by the West and disagree on Russia never being a trustworthy partner again? Tell me, how is this possible, if we "stupid Germans" are supposed to be "brainwashed all the time". Perhaps you should stop watching RTL all the time and take the BILD newspaper as referential source?

[Cybran]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29060398

The contract is suspended until November, and the delay "could cost us 1bn euros", a French diplomat said.

Russia is expecting two Mistral ships from France - the second next year.

The contract is worth 1.2bn euros - and Russia is reported to have paid most of it, so breach of contract would mean France having to reimburse that money.

In addition, France would be liable for an extra 251m-euro penalty payment, French news website LCI reports.

I wonder if Obama, Cameron and Merkel will chip in.

[Shalcker]

So in short: Move now or move later. You really think Kiev would just sit there saying: "Okay, let them regroup first so they can properly attack us later."?

Are you advocating fighting until the bitter end? If Kiev military loss is certain either way without outside interference (which everyone, Obama included, said will not be coming), shouldn't they try to minimize losses?

Last I heard their leadership was moderating their demands and would accept a greater level of autonomy instead if federalization - which is by the way supported - is being agreed to.

That was not attributed information supposedly coming from someone linked with rebels in Minsk. It was promptly refuted by all rebel leaders who said "no, not going to do that - independence is the only way".

Frankly it seems the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing over there, one time you hear they will moderate, next you hear them hardlining again, then you hear of peace offer, rejection of peace offers.

As far as i see it goes like this:
- Russia suggests that there might be some middle ground if peace will be honestly offered
- Rebels say they'll only accept independence; but there is still fighting going on, so it is to be expected
- Russia calls for peace (because we always do), some people in Kiev might be getting receptive to idea (possibly Poroshenko; but not Yatsenyuk), rebels are not going to trust peace talks until Ukrainian army actually withdraws.

[Shalcker]

What Russia says and what Russia does, are two completely separate things that have nothing to do with each other.

We call for peace because peace is always preferable. Generally we call for peace from all sides (as we do in this case) but rebels are not going to trust Kiev to uphold ceasefire until their forces actually withdraw beyond shelling range.

[Megraam]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29060398



I wonder if Obama, Cameron and Merkel will chip in.

The penalty is much more, and the best thing is they won't be even able to sell these ships somewhere else since these ships are tailored for russian needs and sailors.

[Ravenblade]

Are you advocating fighting until the bitter end? If Kiev military loss is certain either way without outside interference (which everyone, Obama included, said will not be coming), shouldn't they try to minimize losses?

Let's turn the question around: Are you advocating a fight until bitter end? Do you want an end to the fight or do you want the separatists take Kiev and do whatever they want with it? I don't think Kiev will give into it as long as the separatists don't want to stop either. It's not realistic regardless how hopeless. If they really want to surrender the oblasts so they could be attacked by them later then Kiev will most likely take their time to regroup to and there will be another round of combat. This time more fiercely. Is that what you truly want? Continuous war?

That was not attributed information supposedly coming from someone linked with rebels in Minsk. It was promptly refuted by all rebel leaders who said "no, not going to do that - independence is the only way".

Temporary independence. Because once this independence happens there will be a familiar pattern and a faux referendum securing Anschluss to Russia. Let's not fool ourselves, if they declare independence they won't be the last one until Novorossiya is reformed and once again reincorporated in Catherinian manner into Russia.

As far as i see it goes like this:
- Russia suggests that there might be some middle ground if peace will be honestly offered
- Rebels say they'll only accept independence; but there is still fighting going on, so it is to be expected
- Russia calls for peace (because we always do), some people in Kiev might be getting receptive to idea (possibly Poroshenko; but not Yatsenyuk), rebels are not going to trust peace talks until Ukrainian army actually withdraws.

Russia, or Putin has shown he is not a good strategist but a good tactician, he employs a fitting tactic to whatever situation arises and when the situation is volatile and subject to a high level of dynamics then contradicting and often seemingly erratic behaviour occurs. So Russia suggested a lot of things over time, it's not going to last long in an environment rife with asynchronocity. Kiev made mistake by believing it will be over fast, they overestimated their effectiveness of their methods, their capacities and fitness but that doesn't mean they started all of it, having armed separatists in your own backyard would be regarded as an affront in any country, even Russia wouldn't tolerate that. Now that being said it was always said by the leading EU figures at least that this conflict could only find a peaceful solution, and Mr.Steinmeier tried to negotiate at best. They even tried to get the rebels on the table as well. I am all for Kiev withdrawing, I am certain a lot of relatives of the soldiers would be as well as their protests are mounting up, but if the rebels' answer is: Okay, this is the signal, onward to Kiev! then Kiev has two options: let them march towards Kiev (which is frankly a terrible option considering the uncertainty of an outcome of such an endeavour), withdraw to a certain distance, fortify for a standoff, and regroup for later (which is again the 2nd worst option). Because I don't believe so-called independence with sacking Kiev included is truly an acceptable and politically sane option.

[Deleted]

If Germans are so brainwashed then why according to polls have they a dropping opinion of the US, are split over sanctions, show an understanding of Russia feeling threatened by the West and disagree on Russia never being a trustworthy partner again? Tell me, how is this possible, if we "stupid Germans" are supposed to be "brainwashed all the time". Perhaps you should stop watching RTL all the time and take the BILD newspaper as referential source?

Exactly, and then on election day you still go and vote for the same people. IF they go voting (40% voter participation in Sachsen this week) at all. And its not just RTL/Bild, but also N24/Stern/Spiegel since late August who started a witch hunt for Putin.

[Bakis]

Exactly, and then on election day you still go and vote for the same people. IF they go voting (40% voter participation in Sachsen this week) at all. And its not just RTL/Bild, but also N24/Stern/Spiegel since late August who started a witch hunt for Putin.

Luckily for some the so called witch hunt didnt do much considering germans and Merkel stand for a large part of the soft sanctions if any -view.
Now however, the past days the lack of change on Russia's part made Merkel re-evaulate her stance and sanctions are bound to stiffen up.
Merkel finally realized that the WW2 concession by UK/France towards Germany is not wise to repeat with Russia today. Cant have an erattic, untrustworthy, landgrabbing Russia who lust for more.

[Marcellus1986]

Because as soon as the plane crushed the Muricans started their usual propaganda non-stop. We got evidence that the separatists did it, but we aint releasing shit.. (i wonder why)

- - - Updated - - -



No they didn't. Infact they didn't release anything, in comparison to the Russians that they did.



Russians asked a very valid question: Why did the plane change route last minute? Why Kiev isn't releasing what was said between tower and plane?

--> Let's all hope Ukraine is not offered a NATO spot tomorrow, for the good of all man kind

Russia released a map of the Ukraine with details overlaid with MS paint.... If you call that evidence then lol

[Deleted]

Luckily for some the so called witch hunt didnt do much considering germans and Merkel stand for a large part of the soft sanctions if any -view.
Now however, the past days the lack of change on Russia's part made Merkel re-evaulate her stance and sanctions are bound to stiffen up.
Merkel finally realized that the WW2 concession by UK/France towards Germany is not wise to repeat with Russia today. Cant have an erattic, untrustworthy, landgrabbing Russia who lust for more.

Fun fact is that some things are still in the dark, which would weaken the NATO support for Ukraine. Malaysian flight corpses and black box results, in depth analysis and information released to the public, OSCE negate that russian forces are in Ukraine (ignored by press and politicians) and the mad stance that Russia will go on and conquer more countries...

- - - Updated - - -

Russia released a map of the Ukraine with details overlaid with MS paint.... If you call that evidence then lol

Ukraine said that Putin himselves shot that flight down, even showed a photo of him in a jet, minutes before the accident.

[Marcellus1986]

Faking evidence to create a picture they need instead of a real one takes a lot of time.

You are clearly an expert in plane crash investigations, as evidenced by your linking of such reputable sites as zerohedge.

Also thanks for showing your obsession with me. Although the things you quoted aren't pro-Western anything, nor are they in the realm of logic. They are differences in geographical education. Thanks for once again proving you know jack squat about anything.

[Cynep]

So in short: Move now or move later. You really think Kiev would just sit there saying: "Okay, let them regroup first so they can properly attack us later."?
Last I heard their leadership was moderating their demands and would accept a greater level of autonomy instead if federalization - which is by the way supported - is being agreed to. Frankly it seems the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing over there, one time you hear they will moderate, next you hear them hardlining again, then you hear of peace offer, rejection of peace offers. As usual any ongoing conflict is usually accompanied by hardliners saying no and blame games. It's pretty simple: peace can only happen if both sides truly want it. Seems neither side really does indeed want it. Which is not good, really. (to put it mildly)

1.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GN08X20140823
During a news conference with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, Merkel said what Germans understood by federalism was seen very differently in Ukraine where it was linked to a greater degree of independence "that we don't want at all".
"What we call federalism is decentralisation," said Merkel.

Decentralisation was exactly what Euromaidan demanded from Yanukovich, devolution of power. What Moscow demands is not Germany-style federalization, but something different - loss of Ukrainian sovereignty. "Federalization" with different name is what Poroshenko does, not what Putin wants.

2.
To put it bluntly, unconditional surrender also brings peace. Yes, Russia doesn't need peace in Ukraine, it's more useful for them to have our country war-torn. But Ukraine doesn't need peace with Russia on the same terms as Moldova and Georgia got from them recently, or Finland in 1940. What Ukraine will accept is status quo ante bellum, anything less is a defeat. And Russia desperately needs Ukrainian defeat - to the nuke level, as Shalcker said.