Analysis of the Level 45 Talent Tier

[Blithe]

I like this tier... i dont know why you guys dont... i change every single fight in SOO...

Dont know why so much hate.

Maybe because it's almost as useful as making a tier focused around Heroic Throw, or something similarly trivial? Those effects shouldn't be talents at all, and at most they should be major glyphs; not talents. We only have them because Blizzard thinks they feel great thematically. They don't seem to understand that you could opt to choose no talents in this tier and nothing would change.

[Roamingstorm]

My opinion on the whole matter of the 45 talents is that they ARE useful in the certain situations, but they ARE boring.

Totems are not what they used to be, and Shaman are not the cure all "I've got a totem for that" class anymore, and I feel as though Blizzard keeps stressing this as a "cool" thing which all I feel totems are now are just sticks in the ground that on occasion I drop, minus Searing Totem. Truly if I were a new player starting now and I had interest in shaman and someone were to say "your signature ability is to plop sticks in the mud" I would have more then likely played something else. Even in game with the big daddy shaman himself, Thrall, I think I've only seen him drop a totem once. Truly the class feels iconic from it's primal nature and abilities,not totems, in comparison to the tree hugging druids. (No offense.)

Anyways sorry for the rant, but as for the 45 talents, I do believe something needs to be done, or something down the lines to be baseline and change it something more interesting. The class is rich in lore, abilities, and story and the best "cool" thing that could be thought up were these.

[Lavindar]

I like this tier... i dont know why you guys dont... i change every single fight in SOO...

Dont know why so much hate.

Can you describe what you like them, and how you find then useful? The more feedback we can gather the better.

[Blithe]

Call of the Elements: Outside of PvP, is this really even necessary? Maybe for an extra HST for Restoration, but still... very niche.

Totemic Persistence: Not entirely that useful as most of our totems have a short duration, and short cooldowns. The only element of our totems that even properly benefits the most out of this talent is Earth, and even then, only because SBT requires up time.

Totemic Projection: I rarely see the use of this for PvE, as the range is always covered and again: totems have a short duration as well as short cooldowns. Most of this talents effectiveness comes from being able to make proper use of EBT/EGT and Capacitor Totem (which is completely horrible without this)... again, very niche.

Call of the Elements should be removed, it would not be missed and the effect was trivial.
Totemic Persistence should be removed, we do not need a band-aid to fix underlying class issues.
Totemic Projection should become baseline, have its cooldown removed, and work a lot more like Trap Launcher.

[Lavindar]

I just posted the feedback on the official forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12945804730#1

[Irisia]

The totem tier is absolutely fine, if you can't see that, then you're either too blinded by hate for the tier or too jealous of the kinds of tiers other classes have. Totems have always been the core of the shaman class, even more so now than in previous expansions. Abilities (Totems) that provide utility are a lot more useful, important, fun(!) and interesting than abilities (totems) that provide static buffs. The tier is all about changing how or when you can use these utilities, allowing for the talents to be useful in a lot of different ways. Also, having a talent be more useful for one spec or for one type of gameplay (PvE/PvP) is fine and to be expected. What makes this tier great is that even though certain talents favor certain specs or situations, all specs can still find use of the different talents (at least if you try).

- If you PvP without Call of the Elements, you're doing something wrong.
- If you're playing Elemental or Resto without frequent use of Totemic Projection, you're doing something wrong.
- Haven't used Totemic Persistence personally, but I’m sure it's very useful when playing solo (and I expect to use it while leveling next expansion).

Shamans should have a totem tier, and this tier is a perfect example of how it should be done.

[Mithgroth]

- If you PvP without Call of the Elements, you're doing something wrong.
- If you're playing Elemental or Resto without frequent use of Totemic Projection, you're doing something wrong.
- Haven't used Totemic Persistence personally, but I’m sure it's very useful when playing solo (and I expect to use it while leveling next expansion).

Shamans should have a totem tier, and this tier is a perfect example of how it should be done.

Can you explain how this goes with the current talent design? Back in the day when there were talent trees, there were builds and stuff you have to pick. You almost had no choice and would just copy the most popular build. Blizzard revamped the system, because it was bad. So, are we back to where we started now?

45 Tier should be burned to ground because:
- They are not choices, you pick them just for different enviroments.
- They are not good, simply put. CotE conflicts with the current short cd / short duration totem design. I really don't use Totemic Persistence but it's only good for getting a Bulwark, Earthbind or Tremor up while your Earth Elemental is up. Totem Projection drives people mad with pathing issues and totems landing not where you exactly want.
- They are not talents, they don't even enhance anything, they are quality of life fixes.
- They don't even alter the way you play, many of us already believe that we wouldn't even mind to leave that tier blank.

How come you still think "it's just fine"?
I'm not judging, you might actually be thinking that which also Blizzard does. I can't understand neither you nor Blizzard, would you mind to explain? This whole "shaman stuff is fine" thing is just getting on my nerves.

[Lavindar]

- If you PvP without Call of the Elements, you're doing something wrong.

If you don't have a choice, the tier failed, that is the whole purpose of why they changed the system to the actual one.

Other than that, I agree, the tier is a good one for a totem tier, that don't mean it doesn't have problems that could be improved upon.

[Elios]

Can you explain how this goes with the current talent design? Back in the day when there were talent trees, there were builds and stuff you have to pick. You almost had no choice and would just copy the most popular build. Blizzard revamped the system, because it was bad. So, are we back to where we started now?

45 Tier should be burned to ground because:
- They are not choices, you pick them just for different enviroments.
- They are not good, simply put. CotE conflicts with the current short cd / short duration totem design. I really don't use Totemic Persistence but it's only good for getting a Bulwark, Earthbind or Tremor up while your Earth Elemental is up. Totem Projection drives people mad with pathing issues and totems landing not where you exactly want.
- They are not talents, they don't even enhance anything, they are quality of life fixes.
- They don't even alter the way you play, many of us already believe that we wouldn't even mind to leave that tier blank.

How come you still think "it's just fine"?
I'm not judging, you might actually be thinking that which also Blizzard does. I can't understand neither you nor Blizzard, would you mind to explain? This whole "shaman stuff is fine" thing is just getting on my nerves.

You sir are completely wrong.
I play Elemental/Resto, and this tier changes alot the way i play each fight specially if i'm healing.
"- They are not choices, you pick them just for different enviroments." Well this is the point of a choice... you change according the enviroment... so there is a choice.

"- They are not good, simply put."
They are... you are not using them thats your problem... From a healer point of view CoTe and Persistence can be amazing specially solo healing, and Who the hell doenst think that a SLT into a projection is fucking usefull?

IMO this tier doenst improve alot of your DPS or HPS but let youself improve your gameplay and make somethings that you normally wouldnt be able to do or it would be extremely dificult..

And "They don't even alter the way you play," ... FFS are you really playing the same game as me?

[Mithgroth]

You sir are completely wrong.
I play Elemental/Resto, and this tier changes alot the way i play each fight specially if i'm healing.
"- They are not choices, you pick them just for different enviroments." Well this is the point of a choice... you change according the enviroment... so there is a choice.

So considering you speak both languages, is speaking French in France and German in Germany a choice? No, it's not.
They are supposed to be picked by personal gameplay preference, according to what Blizzard told us during talent revamp.

"- They are not good, simply put."
They are... you are not using them thats your problem... From a healer point of view CoTe and Persistence can be amazing specially solo healing, and Who the hell doenst think that a SLT into a projection is fucking usefull?

They are not good enough to be talents, since they are band-aids and QoL changes. Even "+2 HP to totems" would be good, because 7 is better than 5. Projection is just a band-aid to mobilize totems a bit since they can't adapt to the meta for the last 2 expensions, Persistence is a band-aid for homogenization nerfs, CotE doesn't even make sense with their current totem design. (see the part you skipped in my original post)

[Irisia]

If you don't have a choice, the tier failed, that is the whole purpose of why they changed the system to the actual one.

Other than that, I agree, the tier is a good one for a totem tier, that don't mean it doesn't have problems that could be improved upon.

The only way a talent tier can be called a failure, is if one or more of the talents are not being used by anyone. All of the totem talents are being used. If lack of choice is the only reason this tier is bad, then why are people not complaining about our Level 30, 60, 75 and 90 talents?

Level 30 – Earthgrab or Windwalk used by all specs in both PvE and PvP, Frozen Power almost never used by anyone.
Level 60 – Always Elemental Mastery for Enhancement (pretty much no choice), Elemental have been using EotE since T14 (no choice). Only resto shamans are swapping these talents on a regular basis.
Level 75 – Almost always Rushing Streams for Resto and Guidance for everyone else, pretty much no choice if you know what talents are actually good.
Level 90 – Don’t think I have ever seen an enhancement shaman without Primal Elementalist, and Elemental shamans are using UF for almost every fight nowadays.

[Deleted]

The only way a talent tier can be called a failure, is if one or more of the talents are not being used by anyone. All of the totem talents are being used. If lack of choice is the only reason this tier is bad, then why are people not complaining about our Level 30, 60, 75 and 90 talents?

Level 30 – Earthgrab or Windwalk used by all specs in both PvE and PvP, Frozen Power almost never used by anyone.
Level 60 – Always Elemental Mastery for Enhancement (pretty much no choice), Elemental have been using EotE since T14 (no choice). Only resto shamans are swapping these talents on a regular basis.
Level 75 – Almost always Rushing Streams for Resto and Guidance for everyone else, pretty much no choice if you know what talents are actually good.
Level 90 – Don’t think I have ever seen an enhancement shaman without Primal Elementalist, and Elemental shamans are using UF for almost every fight nowadays.

My Enh Pov:

Lv30 - Frozen Power probably would have seen alot higher usage if Frost Shock perk made it live, Earthgrab doesn't help the group that much and certaintly not vs ranged.
Lv60 - Because EM hugely inflates FE since ToT courtesy of the old 3m CD Glyphed FE syncing EM+FE+Asc for short controlled bursts.
Lv75 - Have you seen these PVE and PVP graphs? Notice both those links show Conductivity with 0 and 0.93% usage. GG.
Lv90 - glyphed FE synced with EM in ToT on top of Renataki, now AoC trinket and end of xpac stats massively inflate FE value (and the totem has been nerfed both in damage and in glyphed form mind you).


As an ex: Imagine what will happen if Storm Ele becomes the top talent of the lv100 row. PE and EM will most likely follow along with it and that means no Grounding/Cap/SLT for 1 whole minute. I was told that we should just Totemic Restoration when we need them if SET is out.

Well I wish all of you best of luck using Capacitor then, especially if we get fights where that extra stun made the diference between advancing or being stuck in that phase till you overgear it or change talents/tactic.

[Teriz]

Shamans should have a totem tier, and this tier is a perfect example of how it should be done.

I agree that Shaman should have a totem tier. I disagree that this is an example of how it should be done.

The talents are very lackluster. Hell, Totemic Projection is a gimped version of Trap Launcher. Totemic Persistence is only a talent because we're still running on Vanilla class mechanics. The fundamentals behind Call of Elements is sound, but the CDs of our totems are so short that the talent is extremely weak, and really doesn't justify a 3 minute CD.

I would reduce CoE's CD by half, make Totemic Projection baseline (similar to trap launcher), make totemic persistence baseline, and create 2 new totem based talents.

[Tiberria]

The only way a talent tier can be called a failure, is if one or more of the talents are not being used by anyone. All of the totem talents are being used. If lack of choice is the only reason this tier is bad, then why are people not complaining about our Level 30, 60, 75 and 90 talents?

Level 30 – Earthgrab or Windwalk used by all specs in both PvE and PvP, Frozen Power almost never used by anyone.
Level 60 – Always Elemental Mastery for Enhancement (pretty much no choice), Elemental have been using EotE since T14 (no choice). Only resto shamans are swapping these talents on a regular basis.
Level 75 – Almost always Rushing Streams for Resto and Guidance for everyone else, pretty much no choice if you know what talents are actually good.
Level 90 – Don’t think I have ever seen an enhancement shaman without Primal Elementalist, and Elemental shamans are using UF for almost every fight nowadays.

Disagree. A talent tier can also be a failure if all of the talents in it feel so minor and inconsequential that you barely care what talent you take (or even if you take one) and that is the problem with L45. We only get 6 talents in total, and I strongly feel that all 6 talents that you take should feel impactful from a gameplay perspective. L45 talents feel like they are at the minor glyph level of impact.

From a PvE perspective:

Call of the Elements - For Resto, it's a very minor (as in <1%) throughput increase by giving you an extra HST effectively every 6 minutes. For the other specs, there is situational use on some fights in getting double Tremor totems or maybe even double Capacitor/Windwalk totems, but that's very rare.
Totemic Persistence - For Resto, it's also a minor throughput increase about in line with Call of the Elements by letting you maintain maximum HST and MTT usage without having to worry about water totem talent clash. Very limited benefit for the other specs.
Totemic Projection - Really only particularly beneficial for Capacitor and SLT. Almost every other totem has a 40 yard range of effect anyway, and it's rare and/or just bad positioning on your part to be more than 40 yards away from your target/the raid.


As far as the other talent tiers, they have similar problems:
L15 - One of our talent tiers shouldn't be wasted on giving us our personal survival cooldown, something everyone else has baseline. Doing this is just an excuse to be lazy about Shaman design and not give us something interesting (like the speed tier for example).

L30 - This tier isn't terrible, but you end up locked into defaulting to Windwalk in PvE most of the time, because it's a unique effect that no other class brings, whereas Frozen Power and Earthgrab are kind of inferior copies of other class abilities.

L60 - No, even Resto generally doesn't switch this tier out. Resto will pick either EM or AS and then base their gearing to haste breakpoints around that. Switching them requires completely different reforging/gemming, so it isn't really viable on the fly. 89% of PvE Resto take AS currently, so it's a pretty poorly done talent tier.

L75 - DPS are locked into AG to the point that Blizzard actually lists it as Shaman's "stackable raid utility". It's a reasonable question why things like Vampiric Embrace are baseline and we have a talent wasted on our raid utility. Resto actually can viably switch between RS and AG depending on what you want, so that balance isn't terrible. Conductivity is pretty awful for everyone.

L90 - Primal Elementalist is the only viable choice for Resto

[Blithe]

My Enh Pov:

Lv30 - Frozen Power probably would have seen alot higher usage if Frost Shock perk made it live, Earthgrab doesn't help the group that much and certaintly not vs ranged.
Lv60 - Because EM hugely inflates FE since ToT courtesy of the old 3m CD Glyphed FE syncing EM+FE+Asc for short controlled bursts.
Lv75 - Have you seen these PVE and PVP graphs? Notice both those links show Conductivity with 0 and 0.93% usage. GG.
Lv90 - glyphed FE synced with EM in ToT on top of Renataki, now AoC trinket and end of xpac stats massively inflate FE value (and the totem has been nerfed both in damage and in glyphed form mind you).


As an ex: Imagine what will happen if Storm Ele becomes the top talent of the lv100 row. PE and EM will most likely follow along with it and that means no Grounding/Cap/SLT for 1 whole minute. I was told that we should just Totemic Restoration when we need them if SET is out.

Well I wish all of you best of luck using Capacitor then, especially if we get fights where that extra stun made the diference between advancing or being stuck in that phase till you overgear it or change talents/tactic.

Level 30: Frozen Power [FP], Earthgrab Totem [EGT], Windwalk Totem [WWT]

Elemental: [PvE] Never use FP. EGT for adds. Barely use WWT. [PvP] FP for duels. EGT and WWT ranked play, dependent on composition.
Enhancement: [PvE] Never use FP. EGT for adds. Barely use WWT. [PvP] FP for duels. EGT and WWT ranked play, dependent on composition.
Restoration: [PvE] Never use FP. EGT for adds. Barely use WWT. [PvP] FP, EGT and WWT ranked play, dependent on composition.

Level 60: Elemental Mastery [EM], Ancestral Swiftness [AS], Echo of the Elements [EotE]

Elemental: [PvE] Can't comment. [PvP] EM for burst. AS for sustained/instant. Never use EotE.
Enhancement: [PvE] Can't comment. [PvP] EM for burst. AS for sustained/instant. Never use EotE.
Restoration: [PvE] Can't comment. [PvP] EM for burst. AS for sustained/instant. Never use EotE.

Level 75: Rushing Streams [RS], Ancestral Guidance [AG], Conductivity [C]

Elemental: [PvE] RS never. AG all of the time. C never. [PvP] RS dependent on composition. AG most of the time. C never.
Enhancement: [PvE] RS never. AG all of the time. C never. [PvP] RS dependent on composition. AG most of the time. C never.
Restoration: [PvE] RS most of the time. AG and C rarely. [PvP] RS all of the time. AG and C never.

Level 90: Unleashed Fury [UF], Primal Elementalist [PE], Elemental Blast [EB]

Elemental: [PvE] UF most of the time. PE and EB some of the time. [PvP] UF and PE some of the time. EB most of the time.
Enhancement: [PvE] UF never. PE all of the time. EB never. [PvP] UF never. PE some of the time. EB most of the time.
Restoration: [PvE] UF never. PE all of the time. EB never. [PvP] UF most of the time. PE some of the time. EB never.

[Nebria]

Level 60: Elemental Mastery [EM], Ancestral Swiftness [AS], Echo of the Elements [EotE]

Elemental: [PvE] Can't comment. [PvP] EM for burst. AS for sustained/instant. Never use EotE.

for pve is is EotE all the time

[Blithe]

for pve is is EotE all the time

I know, as Elemental is the only spec in PvE I've been playing properly since I can remember. I just copy+pasted the answers to all the specs as I was in a rush to finish my post.

[wordup]

Having a totem tier isn't the issue, having a totem tier with abilities so inconsequential is. Why can't the totem tier be a choice between actual totems (there's already 3 in the tree as it is)?

Wanting focus around totems is fine, but having a totem tier that doesn't actually affect any aspect of both PvE and PvP (yeah, you have it so you use it, but if it was aggressively removed how much would you TRULY notice it?) in a significant way is not really a choice, it's a tickbox to make the "you have talent points free!" alert to go away.

Why not have a tier focused around totems that actually has significant choices based on utility? Make AG tied to a totem vs. a Stampeding Roar totem vs. Ursol's Vortex style totem and remove said totems and abilities from their tiers and tie them in, and create replacements for their tiers instead? I mean, creating a tier purely on varied raid utility for differing situations is more important than 3 completely random given totem themed things that affect a tiny percentage of pulls in a raid or PvP engagements.

[shamantime]

The totem tier is absolutely fine, if you can't see that, then you're either too blinded by hate for the tier or too jealous of the kinds of tiers other classes have. Totems have always been the core of the shaman class, even more so now than in previous expansions. Abilities (Totems) that provide utility are a lot more useful, important, fun(!) and interesting than abilities (totems) that provide static buffs. The tier is all about changing how or when you can use these utilities, allowing for the talents to be useful in a lot of different ways. Also, having a talent be more useful for one spec or for one type of gameplay (PvE/PvP) is fine and to be expected. What makes this tier great is that even though certain talents favor certain specs or situations, all specs can still find use of the different talents (at least if you try).

- If you PvP without Call of the Elements, you're doing something wrong.
- If you're playing Elemental or Resto without frequent use of Totemic Projection, you're doing something wrong.
- Haven't used Totemic Persistence personally, but I’m sure it's very useful when playing solo (and I expect to use it while leveling next expansion).

Shamans should have a totem tier, and this tier is a perfect example of how it should be done.

I literally lol'd at your post, especially the bold. I PvP with TPro all the time because it's the only way I can reliably get two major CCs off. Relying on a 45secCD Poly and an interrupt against melee teams isn't going to help you.

[Nebria]

everything is from ele pov

L15 - One of our talent tiers shouldn't be wasted on giving us our personal survival cooldown, something everyone else has baseline. Doing this is just an excuse to be lazy about Shaman design and not give us something interesting (like the speed tier for example).

the problem is this is only true for resto, enhancer and ele gets shamanistic rage baseline so it is an additional survival cd.
and I think this tier is well don. you have several different types of cd and I use all of them in special situations.
so perhaps it is time to give resto shamanistic rage?

L30 - This tier isn't terrible, but you end up locked into defaulting to Windwalk in PvE most of the time, because it's a unique effect that no other class brings, whereas Frozen Power and Earthgrab are kind of inferior copies of other class abilities.

we really should stop saying "you end up in x or y" beacause it is not true. from my readings in forums windwalk and earthgrab are most used in pve.
I tried frozen power in pvp but I have the issue that is locks my other shocks for dealing damage. but it is strong if you want to get to something so I think it is usefull for enhancers cause they don't have a gap closer.

L60 - No, even Resto generally doesn't switch this tier out. Resto will pick either EM or AS and then base their gearing to haste breakpoints around that. Switching them requires completely different reforging/gemming, so it isn't really viable on the fly. 89% of PvE Resto take AS currently, so it's a pretty poorly done talent tier.

I can absolutly agree here. I used EotE most of the time. Even in PvP it is still strong no matter hat it got an internal cd.
Hoever at least for PvP you have some kind of choice. When instant hex is gone in WoD I think AS is dying as alternative for PvP also.

L75 - DPS are locked into AG to the point that Blizzard actually lists it as Shaman's "stackable raid utility". It's a reasonable question why things like Vampiric Embrace are baseline and we have a talent wasted on our raid utility. Resto actually can viably switch between RS and AG depending on what you want, so that balance isn't terrible. Conductivity is pretty awful for everyone.

anoher one I have to agree. Tere is one time in PvP where I would use rushing streams but else I use AG all the time.
The question is really if the should give AG to ele and enhancer, rushing streams to shamans and do a completly new tier.

L90 - Primal Elementalist is the only viable choice for Resto

again I have to agree. for ele you have some options. I use all three talents depending on fights.
for enhancer I think it is PT most of he time cause of the absurd scaling with the cd trinket and em. what I dislik about this is that if the combination is to strong they start nerfing the elementals which will effact all shamans
for resto, I think ET or enhanced UF are mostly used. That they still not get a healing version of elemental blast for resto is very sad.

btw no matter what a lot of people say about lvl 45.
imo it is a huge success. while it provides only qol changs to the totem system (which blizzard don't want to give us for free) you can see for example in this forum that a lot of people use any of all three talents. this makes it a success.
compare it to the healing tier one moment and you see what I mean.
this is no about how good the talents are and if they need improements.