A federal ruling has been made on He v She rape cases for universities in the U.S

[RapBreon]

That's a very thought out post, and one where i can't be bothered to quote and splice it accordingly in rebuttal points.

I don't blame you. To be honest it was so much I didn't know if you'd even read it :P

I agree with your edit on anonymity, it's always been a key tenet i believe should be afforded; And you'd of noticed i'm very very skeptical of suing those for defamation, i highlighted certain conditions where i believe it was merited (When demonstrably false, and not merely on the basis of an acquittal) but even then i'm wary of a precedent being set that'd deter rape victims.

This is my only issue with it. If you can set up a system to punish those that cry rape when they haven't been, I'd be all for it. People who cry foul about rape are a major contributing reason real rape victims don't come forward and/or ostracized by...'passionate' individuals. But alas, I'm not sure I'm willing to make a trade for actual rape victims.

And while I haven't mentioned it, I do feel for those falsely accused of rape, it is tragic, it could happen to anyone and that scares me a little. But my education has biased me towards structural analysis more than anything else.

Another late edit: while not strictly to the topic at hand, I disagree with those crazy American laws about having child sex offender's locations on a website (I don't seem them as particularly effective either). So I agree that some privacy should be necessary, especially at the allegation stage.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb04/rape.aspx

"Up to 38 percent of women engage in more sexually risky behaviors after experiencing a sexual assault than they did before the attack, while 48 percent significantly reduce their risky behavior, according to a new study in January's Health Psychology (Vol. 23, No. 1)."

My phrasing of it was adequate there for adult rape victims, that being, a fair amount DO experience heightened sexual desire, and often practice it in more risque circumstances.

I have to admit, I didn't realise it was that common. I'm assuming that either approach however still stifles healthy sexual relationships? Regardless, this is very interesting. It doesn't surprise me that it occurs, but 38% was a lot higher than I thought, I find myself far more open to the notion in light of this information. That is a fair amount indeed.

http://www.researchconsultation.com/...roblems_05.asp

Another delving into children's hypersexuality after abuse,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074312/

And another.

http://www.recoveryranch.com/article...en-and-trauma/

I can't find any figures detailing how many children specifically experience hypersexuality, but on reddit a researcher stated it was quite high i'll find her IAMA.

I'll bookmark this page for further reading later. I'll read the meat of the first study at some stage though, that's very interesting.

Well, this was an interesting discussion, in which I only originally intended to drive-by comment in :P

[Saxtorph]

Universities have a incentive to ensure that their environment is safe for their students. Just like workplaces.

Edit: So, anyone want to take a crack at why this is OK, but we can't sue for prosecutorial malfeasance, or reform shitty police practices that may lead to false accusations to begin with?

And just like with workplaces, one should be able to sue for wrongful discharge. This is a good ruling.

[Deleted]

Ah, justice. I was just about to leave this planet on my spaceship.

[Sorrior]

I'm well aware of the consequences. But if this stifles the reporting of rape related crimes we may be regressing progress we've made to let people know 'it's ok to speak about these things'. Because now it's not ok, it's a risk to report a rape, even if you were actually raped. The difficulty in reporting is now compounded by emotional/gender roles plus legal ramifications. Especially amongst police who show an astounding lack of sympathy when it comes to dealing with rape accusations.

I don't know about this university stuff however, I'm merely musing if it gets into the actual CJS.

Also on a balance of damages, assuming all things equal (which they are not), what is more damaging? Being actually raped or being falsely accused of raping someone?

The more damaging one is debated i say being accused long term raped short term.

[Crissi]

The more damaging one is debated i say being accused long term raped short term.

and the accuser can get a double whammy if she both gets raped, loses the court case, and then gets sued by her rapist.

[Sorrior]

Typically, if you're falsely accused the damage is done to your reputation and pocket. Now I'm not going to deny the fact that this can serious psychological effects down the road. But they can be mitigated to an extent. For example, you'll be able to convince your closest friends/family that you didn't do it, you'll always be able to keep at least a small circle of social contacts. Career options are no doubt limited.

The damage done to a rape victim while not always is usually very deep guaranteeing psychological issues into the future, the violence of the act and brazen invasion of privacy is what causes the damage. Intimacy becomes a serious issue, sex is pretty much off the table, they'll have enormous difficultly enjoying their sex-life, finding a partner or even interacting with individuals of the opposite gender or the same gender (non-traditionalist rape I guess you'd call it). Withdrawing from studies is a possibility (which limits career options as well), withdrawing from the public sphere, social anxiety, agoraphobia etc. The list is long and extensive. And naturally this can occur in the first scenario, but it's far less likely from how we understand trauma.

I'm not denying that there is a colossal amount of conjecture in what I'm saying. It could turn out a falsely accused person reacts worse than a typical rape victim, It just tends to be far less likely.

The list of side effects of rape can be more extensive then what you list..Some women wind up becoming hypersexual especially if abused as children. Some don't show it as much as others and do their best and even succeed in living normal lives.

All types exist.

And that said the long term mental effects of being a social pariah are VERY VERY bad.. There are reasons being exiled was once considered among if not the worst punishment you could do...Shunned that way the worse one shunned..And that is an almost defacto side effect of false accusations.

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You'll be publicly vilified and the details of the accusation will be on public websites ready to be researched, newspapers will have your name down and you'll never find gainful employment again in your life.

A rape victim is given anonymity.

So you think, but as experienced in this very thread even when acquitted of found not guilty lingering suspicion will be held; It's also very common for family's to break under the strain and to divorce regarding it.

There is also no legal right or funding for false accusation victims to find support.

And career options will be severely limited.

As is the same for falsely accused people, depression, drink and drug dependency and agoraphobia amongst anxiety related disorders are rife.

How they manifest in each respective victim are very different though.

Not quite true, a fair amount of rape victims experience heightened sexual desires and is often a chapter of shame they view of it.

Specifically it's been noted that when children are raped they display amazingly increased sexual desire, that's also present in rape victims of age.

I'm not saying what you stated is false, it's not universal.

Citation please on the bolded part, it seems massively reinforced.

Annnnd pretty god summary LOL.

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http://www.capefearpsych.org/documen...-mensguide.pdf

I kinda have the reverse myself..A hyposexuality where sex is super hyper special to me..And ironically for me it's from sexual suppression so same cure would likely work.

One thing i always find interesting about these things..Is just how many things can cause VERY similar traits to abuse.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

and the accuser can get a double whammy if she both gets raped, loses the court case, and then gets sued by her rapist.

Perhaps but I'm not going to dismiss false rape claims.

[Sorrior]

There's also many who do that as a way to hurt themselves, or they sell themselves, or they become afraid of sex. It all depends on the persons psyche. There's no way to know how a person will react to it.

Pretty much this..Humans are VERY varied creatures. Some get depressed some suicidal some hypersexual some hyposexual some scared of being touched some decide to try and change gender preferences and so on.

The list frankly is nigh endless.

[Tinykong]

and the accuser can get a double whammy if she both gets raped, loses the court case, and then gets sued by her rapist.

Losing in court ≠ false accusation

[Sorrior]

and the accuser can get a double whammy if she both gets raped, loses the court case, and then gets sued by her rapist.

I am a hopeful being(how i avoid suicide even when depressed)...I would rather presume he was innocent...And i would rather presume the woman would not be lying...In both cases i would prefer to see the best in people.

[nightfalls]

The fact that a minority of individuals falsely accuse means that actual accusations of rape are taken less seriously, as evidenced by the entirety of this thread.

Both in consequence (what you and PizzaSHARK said) and in principle. You're taking advantage of/exploiting a real problem (rape) and siphoning resources from society that should be going to actual sexual assault victims, in order to profit personally.

I think something that's been lost is that false rape accusers also indirectly victimize all real rape victims as well as those they falsely accuse.

As for suing, well, personally I won't say any more other than I feel to have a case you'd have to be able to show that the accusation was deliberately and maliciously meant to damage your reputation. In other words, the burden of proof in this case should be to show the accuser wasn't actually assaulted (and not just that she wasn't able to prove you did do it). Moreover, you'd have to show the accuser had no reason to believe she was assaulted, even if she wasn't (that said it's quite difficult to believe you were assaulted if you weren't).

[Sorrior]

I think something that's been lost is that false rape accusers also indirectly victimize all real rape victims as well as those they falsely accuse.

See this is the thing..I actually don;t fully get HOW punishing false accusers would lower report rates..If anything the fact that a woman would be willing to risk legal/financial repercussions should just help cement how bad her experience was...I can even see it LOWERING victim blaming by having a way to act as a sort of narrier to false accusers.

My sister once said "No no woman would EVER falsely accuse a man because rape is such a horrific crime that it would be..." I forget the rest but the gist is there. Basically she is extremely radfem(i am guessing this also shows why i take such a hardline stance against it in all forms) and the idea is that rape is SO horrific that no woman would EVER use it to get revenge.

But it can be read another way. That these women who HAVEN'T been raped can just say this stuff because to THEM it is no big deal to talk about. To THEM it is basically a way to get back at men or get their way. Only they may not understand HOW horrible rape is and what they're effectively doing to someones life.

That I think is one of the problems. REAL rape victims ones who HAVE been raped KNOW the horror the pain the helpessness...And so to them it IS traumatic enough to even try to report it let alone recount it. But to the false accusers it;s like lying about most anything else..And that is NOT ok.

We do need a barrier to stop liars but i would hope this same barrier might even encourage real victims to come forth. And hopefully both lower victim blaming AND false reports as well as increase rates of actual reports.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No hostage holding. I simply don't care to answer your questions when you lied about what I said. I've little respect for people who read and hear what isn't there.

Uhh no, your response what "nice oversimplification" .. so what I wrote had some merits. Again, you aren't going to make me jump through hoops to get an answer. I'll just assume I was right then.

[nightfalls]

See this is the thing..I actually don;t fully get HOW punishing false accusers would lower report rates..If anything the fact that a woman would be willing to risk legal/financial repercussions should just help cement how bad her experience was...I can even see it LOWERING victim blaming by having a way to act as a sort of narrier to false accusers.

It might be a barrier to false accusers for sure, but it definitely could lower report rates if not done well. There's a reason there's a long-standing stance against allowing accused people to sue their accusers, because it actually has an effect of lowering report rates.

But lately the social consequences of being accused (read: accused, not convicted) of rape has increased dramatically with social media. So perhaps times do need to change with that fact.

My sister once said "No no woman would EVER falsely accuse a man because rape is such a horrific crime that it would be..." I forget the rest but the gist is there. Basically she is extremely radfem(i am guessing this also shows why i take such a hardline stance against it in all forms) and the idea is that rape is SO horrific that no woman would EVER use it to get revenge.

Let's not also forget that historically false accusations were a real thing and used to victimize people. They are nothing new, and society as a whole has turned a blind eye toward it. I'm hesitant to bring up another form of social persecution (racism) that revolved heavily around false sexual assault allegations.

[Crissi]

Losing in court ≠ false accusation

Thats my point, which si why im against letting the accused sue the accuser without definintive proof. The university though, id be fine with.

[Cyberowl]

Both in consequence (what you and PizzaSHARK said) and in principle. You're taking advantage of/exploiting a real problem (rape) and siphoning resources from society that should be going to actual sexual assault victims, in order to profit personally.

I think something that's been lost is that false rape accusers also indirectly victimize all real rape victims as well as those they falsely accuse.

As for suing, well, personally I won't say any more other than I feel to have a case you'd have to be able to show that the accusation was deliberately and maliciously meant to damage your reputation. In other words, the burden of proof in this case should be to show the accuser wasn't actually assaulted (and not just that she wasn't able to prove you did do it). Moreover, you'd have to show the accuser had no reason to believe she was assaulted, even if she wasn't (that said it's quite difficult to believe you were assaulted if you weren't).

Wow, false rape accusations are not a real problem?

And btw, you are the first one in pages to state that false rape accusers victimize real rape victims. Shows where your...stance, let's call it stance, is.

I agree that the burden of proof (of malicious intent) should be the standard for false acquisition cases, though! That we agree on.

[Sorrior]

It might be a barrier to false accusers for sure, but it definitely could lower report rates if not done well. There's a reason there's a long-standing stance against allowing accused people to sue their accusers, because it actually has an effect of lowering report rates.

But lately the social consequences of being accused (read: accused, not convicted) of rape has increased dramatically with social media. So perhaps times do need to change with that fact.



Let's not also forget that historically false accusations were a real thing and used to victimize people. They are nothing new, and society as a whole has turned a blind eye toward it. I'm hesitant to bring up another form of social persecution (racism) that revolved heavily around false sexual assault allegations.

First thanks for being respectful in your replies...I tend to get heated and agressive when people are disrespectful leading to me being almost universally disrespectful with them...

Second no I agree it coukd easily lower rates especially in the short term...But as false accusations become more rare I say even frim the start we encourage women to come forward about being assualted.

My thing as I said before is I seen to work in good faith.

I may have ALOT of issues and pre judge feminisn(with my sister being the only real life "feminist" I know is it any wonder radfems seem so normal to me) but I do try to have faith that people have the best of intentions.

[pollzl]

its a welcome change i was victim for it back in time...

when i was younger there were girls who used to come and hug and kiss me and sit in my lap and then at parties they did the same while drunk and none of them had any intention of doing anything with me..... later i found her passed out and after what she done to me i wanted to have sex with her so bad that i tried to do it when she was sleeping but she woke up and started screaming for help, had to talk to social workers for a year and community service and they didnt even listen to me when i said what she had done during the evening, i didnt even get to feel what it would be like to be inside her

but she wanted it but still reported me afterwards for it...

Infracted - trolling

[RapBreon]

The list of side effects of rape can be more extensive then what you list..Some women wind up becoming hypersexual especially if abused as children. Some don't show it as much as others and do their best and even succeed in living normal lives.

All types exist.

The conversation had evolved from the point where you decided to interject. I still value your contribution as I find the stance offered interesting. I have given my reasons and evidence to support my rationale. It's all there in the enormous wall of text. I mentioned in my very first summary that being a pariah can bring about internalised issues, it's just less likely due to how trauma works.

I don't support the notion that "everyone is different and you can't predict them", the fact is, some reactions are more common than others and while the behaviours exhibited can be different, the effect on the life and psyche can be the same. Some people may indeed behave like nothing has happened, but that's typically uncommon, you can't rely on that when designing systems that are supposed to benefit as many people as possible, you play to the averages and set-up safety nets for the fringe cases. It's not a plausible argument when discussing from the perspective of an institution as large as the Western CJS.

Now, if we didn't have to operate within the confines of our delightfully limited justice system? My opinion would be entirely dependent on those replacement circumstances. Litigious retribution doesn't work for me. Ultimately this response, does not benefit as many people as possible, this is the bottom line for me. Though I'm a broken record at this point because I'm just paraphrasing what I have already said, but I'm sure it beats reading the wall I created prior. (edit: Still ended up creating a wall, complex issue, means I need words!)

Additionally, if the FBI's statistics can be believed (doubtful, rape is under-reported, so it's probably less than the number given), 8 of every 100 rape cases are falsified. I'm not saying this is right, but this number isn't significant enough to me to make it a risk for real rape victims to report it. It's already a difficult crime to report, sending the message that you could get utterly destroyed if you don't have enough evidence to prove it, doesn't seem like a good idea. Compounded by the low standards of proof in the civil courts (being found not guilty in a criminal proceeding might be enough to guarantee a civil victory) means real rape victims could be taken to town. And thus, in one fell swoop we have further decreased the amount of reported rapes. The sheer proxitmity of the crime on the victim makes it difficult to report and the victim blaming is what makes it so under-reported. We've been working hard to send the message that it's ok to talk about this these, this solution is a response to the opposite.

I've conceded ignorance to hypersexuality. Hypersexuality however, has the same root issue that hyposexuality seems to have, it warps the sufferers views of 'normal sexual behaviour (as prescribed by society). Essentially 76% of rape victims according to Sir Chin's study will have warped sexual ideas. Swinging both ways does not mean the cause and the root impact on their psychic well-being are opposites. While I was admittedly ignorant of the details, it doesn't debunk my point, it merely illustrates it can manifest in a way I didn't foresee as significantly common.

TL;DR (again): this solution is short-sighted, constrained by the limitation of our justice system. It was designed to solve a problem, without considering the flow on effects, which creates more problems. It needs to be re-assessed, preferably by people with actual PhDs in relevant fields (psychology, criminology, sociology). Now you didn't really contend the validity of the solution to me, but you kinda did with others, so I'll articulate my view so you can see how the other side thinks.

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And btw, you are the first one in pages to state that false rape accusers victimize real rape victims. Shows where your...stance, let's call it stance, is.

I have mentioned it two pages back, it is a fact though. False accusations hurt more than just the accused. It doesn't mean we don't feel for the accused, it's just an angle that needs to be considered. Ultimately, in the grand scheme of things; all situations where rape is involved (actual or false) rape victims suffer more than anyone else.

[Sorrior]

The conversation had evolved from the point where you decided to interject. I still value your contribution as I find the stance offered interesting. I have given my reasons and evidence to support my rationale. It's all there in the enormous wall of text. I mentioned in my very first summary that being a pariah can bring about internalised issues, it's just less likely due to how trauma works.

I don't support the notion that "everyone is different and you can't predict them", the fact is, some reactions are more common than others and while the behaviours exhibited can be different, the effect on the life and psyche can be the same. Some people may indeed behave like nothing has happened, but that's typically uncommon, you can't rely on that when designing systems that are supposed to benefit as many people as possible, you play to the averages and set-up safety nets for the fringe cases. It's not a plausible argument when discussing from the perspective of an institution as large as the Western CJS.

Now, if we didn't have to operate within the confines of our delightfully limited justice system? My opinion would be entirely dependent on those replacement circumstances. Litigious retribution doesn't work for me. Ultimately this response, does not benefit as many people as possible, this is the bottom line for me. Though I'm a broken record at this point because I'm just paraphrasing what I have already said, but I'm sure it beats reading the wall I created prior. (edit: Still ended up creating a wall, complex issue, means I need words!)

Additionally, if the FBI's statistics can be believed (doubtful, rape is under-reported, so it's probably less than the number given), 8 of every 100 rape cases are falsified. I'm not saying this is right, but this number isn't significant enough to me to make it a risk for real rape victims to report it. It's already a difficult crime to report, sending the message that you could get utterly destroyed if you don't have enough evidence to prove it, doesn't seem like a good idea. Compounded by the low standards of proof in the civil courts (being found not guilty in a criminal proceeding might be enough to guarantee a civil victory) means real rape victims could be taken to town. And thus, in one fell swoop we have further decreased the amount of reported rapes. The sheer proxitmity of the crime on the victim makes it difficult to report and the victim blaming is what makes it so under-reported. We've been working hard to send the message that it's ok to talk about this these, this solution is a response to the opposite.

I've conceded ignorance to hypersexuality. Hypersexuality however, has the same root issue that hyposexuality seems to have, it warps the sufferers views of 'normal sexual behaviour (as prescribed by society). Essentially 76% of rape victims according to Sir Chin's study will have warped sexual ideas. Swinging both ways does not mean the cause and the root impact on their psychic well-being are opposites. While I was admittedly ignorant of the details, it doesn't debunk my point, it merely illustrates it can manifest in a way I didn't foresee as significantly common.

TL;DR (again): this solution is short-sighted, constrained by the limitation of our justice system. It was designed to solve a problem, without considering the flow on effects, which creates more problems. It needs to be re-assessed, preferably by people with actual PhDs in relevant fields (psychology, criminology, sociology). Now you didn't really contend the validity of the solution to me, but you kinda did with others, so I'll articulate my view so you can see how the other side thinks.

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I have mentioned it two pages back, it is a fact though. False accusations hurt more than just the accused. It doesn't mean we don't feel for the accused, it's just an angle that needs to be considered. Ultimately, in the grand scheme of things; all situations where rape is involved (actual or false) rape victims suffer more than anyone else.

You misunderstood me. There are indeed ways to see how someone would react and some are more common then others. But there are always anomalous cases for one. Another is that some may be very sexual but avoid contact some may enjoy abuse because i is "normal" to them and so on. In essence...I am trying to say that there more then just even 2 routes it can take and composite forms are even possible ESPECIALLY if we delve into dissociative disorders.