KJC change in WoD Alpha test

[Turturin the Warlock]

Yes, but in WoD you won't have Fel Flame. Do you still feel the same way?

As Liquidsteel assumed, I was imagining a world where they follow through on bringing back fel flame. It's fair to say I would see destro (especially) pigeonholed to a greater degree without fel flame, and relatively moreso depending on how much they reduce it's effectiveness if they do bring it back.

- - - Updated - - -

Simply put: extreme choice limitations (directly compared to other classes).
While certain talents are more versatile/ universal for the average circumstance, doesn't mean that there's a choice when the competing talents can only be used in their particular situation. A spec may not benefit from a particular talent at all either.

The most obvious cases are:
- AD is the only viable option for single target, limiting choice, can also be regarded as default. There's not even much to be gained from the other two talents when they can be used as opposed to AD having the versatility to be always used.
- MF is required for Demonology for competitive AoE (unless stars align/ HoG timing - subject to lucky~RNG) which makes it a requirement unless you accept sub-par AoE performance (although it usually isn't needed/ but if they were relying on you, then you won't provide.).
- MF is virtually useless for Affliction and to tiny less extent for Destruction.
- Grimoires are useless for certain specs, especially Service for Destruction and Affliction. It's not the damage itself, but the actual utility/ ability provided by the talent. Why even bother.
Mentioning the problems: Service pet(s): Voidwalker does nothing useful, The Felhunter interrupt cannot be used due to GCD, the imp utility is incredibly weak, and Succubus does not what's intended reliably. Not to mention you won't be sitting on these cool-downs during PvE and many more issues.
- Blood Horror is completely useless for PvE, limiting choices.
- Demonic Breath has no use anywhere.
- Burning Rush has arguably some use, but realistically not during active combat.


... Usually there is no choice, and if there is: it is often severely limited.



[/I]

May I ask (sincerely) if you actually play any other classes at a high level in PvE or PvP? I can tell you limited or useless choices on multiple rows is common to all classes.

There's usually 2-3 rows between classes where your choice is meaningful and significantly impactful in a PvE raiding context with maybe an additional row or two where you make an occasional situational change, so that's the standard I was comparing to. That's actually ok in my book.

As to your specific examples:
AD - Disagree. For patchwerk you would be right, but only patchwerk is patchwerk . Single target fights today are like Juggernaut or Malkorok, and both AD and KJC work well (see my previous post)
MF - Yes agree. MF Sucks. THis was noted in my original argument.
Grimoires - Mastery pulls Sac ahead. This is a tuning problem, not an issue with service per se. I've already addressed this

Agree that blook horror and demonic breath don't factor into PvE raiding, but I don't need 18 choices for every raid encounter. They do have some use in other (smaller) PvE contexts.

Burning rush has a lot of use. It is realistically usable during combat. I use it on several fights, including heroic Garrosh (and yes even during progression at ilvl 572). I think you will find a lot of locks use it, but you do have to be smart about it. Again, not a bad thing.

[Nighthaven-]

May I ask (sincerely) if you actually play any other classes at a high level in PvE or PvP? I can tell you limited or useless choices on multiple rows is common to all classes.

There's usually 2-3 rows between classes where your choice is meaningful and significantly impactful in a PvE raiding context with maybe an additional row or two where you make an occasional situational change, so that's the standard I was comparing to. That's actually ok in my book.

As to your specific examples:
AD - Disagree. For patchwerk you would be right, but only patchwerk is patchwerk . Single target fights today are like Juggernaut or Malkorok, and both AD and KJC work well (see my previous post)
MF - Yes agree. MF Sucks. THis was noted in my original argument.
Grimoires - Mastery pulls Sac ahead. This is a tuning problem, not an issue with service per se. I've already addressed this

Agree that blook horror and demonic breath don't factor into PvE raiding, but I don't need 18 choices for every raid encounter. They do have some use in other (smaller) PvE contexts.

Burning rush has a lot of use. It is realistically usable during combat. I use it on several fights, including heroic Garrosh (and yes even during progression at ilvl 572). I think you will find a lot of locks use it, but you do have to be smart about it. Again, not a bad thing.

Whether I do or not is mostly irrelevant, you can't expect every player to have the time to do so for supposedly more 'arguing power', even then: it might be 'invalid experience.'
Everyone may however chip-in and bring a example of 'worse cases' if they can.

I can however tell by just glancing at the talents (even by themselves), picking up chatter (external and in-game) and experience of having every single spec trying to kill you and understand why and what they're doing (that's not the same as fighting along with every class individually against a predictable target/ PvE). But it is not really hard to read what any talent does and what it interferes with.

- It 'may' be a minor issue for some classes, but even if they actively selected the worst talent with the worst circumstance to test this claim out: they'll benefit in some way as opposed to none as with Warlocks. You're missing the point: Warlock talents are the least versatile, and as of that they have the least choices for the circumstance.


Individual talent performance (numbers) nor usage ability is the factor here, it's the talent and talent-row itself.


As for the mis-conception of too many choices: modification or changes to talents does not increase the amount of talents or binds you'll end up with: You're still limited to only one.
Those who are in denial are seemingly afraid of making the wrong choice; which is considered impossible for performance-related-talents when it comes to Blizzard.
Those talents will always be number-tuned, yet their clunkiness and usability might be wildly different for each spec. Those who are aware will always push for better design. Unfortunately they're in minority, as the noobish-masses who are afraid of making the wrong talent-choice refuse to support 'alterations of talents' that may or may not interfere with their precious gameplay (realistically not, since they do not take these talents or play that spec that is negatively affected by that talent). They'll be satisfied so long as they have one-working talent and as long as they 'feel' that they make the right choice (even if it is their only choice).

As an example:
If a talent is wildly unusable for spec A but great for Spec B when the B group is 90% of those who play that class: They'll obviously not support to change that talent for the better.

That is what is wrong with democracy: It's not about doing the right thing, but prevention of doing what is most wrong.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Whether I do or not is mostly irrelevant, you can't expect every player to have the time to do so for supposedly more 'arguing power', even then: it might be 'invalid experience.'
Everyone may however chip-in and bring a example of 'worse cases' if they can.

I can however tell by just glancing at the talents (even by themselves), picking up chatter (external and in-game) and experience of having every single spec trying to kill you and understand why and what they're doing (that's not the same as fighting along with every class individually against a predictable target/ PvE). But it is not really hard to read what any talent does and what it interferes with.

- It 'may' be a minor issue for some classes, but even if they actively selected the worst talent with the worst circumstance to test this claim out: they'll benefit in some way as opposed to none as with Warlocks. You're missing the point: Warlock talents are the least versatile, and as of that they have the least choices for the circumstance..

Since your claim is comparative to others (i.e. that warlocks have the worst choices), your apparent lack of personal experience with other classes and specs you assert as having better choices is most certainly relevant, especially since you feel and state things in such an absolute manner.

It would be easier to take you seriously if your argument was constructed on the basis of why you don't like your warlock choices, rather than your sense of entitlement to better choices because of your assertion that you are worse off compared to other classes.

Individual talent performance (numbers) nor usage ability is the factor here, it's the talent and talent-row itself.


As for the mis-conception of too many choices: modification or changes to talents does not increase the amount of talents or binds you'll end up with: You're still limited to only one.
Those who are in denial are seemingly afraid of making the wrong choice; which is considered impossible for performance-related-talents when it comes to Blizzard.
Those talents will always be number-tuned, yet their clunkiness and usability might be wildly different for each spec. Those who are aware will always push for better design. Unfortunately they're in minority, as the noobish-masses who are afraid of making the wrong talent-choice refuse to support 'alterations of talents' that may or may not interfere with their precious gameplay (realistically not, since they do not take these talents or play that spec that is negatively affected by that talent). They'll be satisfied so long as they have one-working talent and as long as they 'feel' that they make the right choice (even if it is their only choice).

As an example:
If a talent is wildly unusable for spec A but great for Spec B when the B group is 90% of those who play that class: They'll obviously not support to change that talent for the better.

That is what is wrong with democracy: It's not about doing the right thing, but prevention of doing what is most wrong.

You're creating a red herring here. I didn't say there were too many choices. I said on a fight to fight basis I don't feel compelled to re-think every choice I've made. For example I don't often change out of soul leech these days, but I've used dark regen to great effect as well. There's no math that compares constant DR to an on-demand "oh shit" button...it's personal preference.

Also, keybinds (or lack thereof) are not equivalent to functionality. They are separate things. Soul Leech is functional, so is soul link. So are Dark Regen and Sacrificial pact.

As for your democracy comment, there's no relation at all to what we're talking about. Game design isn't a democracy, neither is this forum. In some ways it seems you want to turn everything into a discussion on your broader world view, and I'm actually not interested in that. To the extent you'd like to discuss the specifics of your issues with the class, willing to continue listening and discuss. But I won't respond to any more of your thoughts about "the noobish-masses" or other such comments as you've made recently on these boards. Try to be a bit more constructive in your thought process and a little less binary.

[Phoenexis]

You're creating a red herring here. I didn't say there were too many choices. I said on a fight to fight basis I don't feel compelled to re-think every choice I've made. For example I don't often change out of soul leech these days, but I've used dark regen to great effect as well. There's no math that compares constant DR to an on-demand "oh shit" button...it's personal preference.

Well nobody is really "forced" to swap out talents on every fight, unless you're doing high-end hardcore progression raids. But the thing is in my opinion that the possibility of sporting a "cookie-cutter" build is much more prevalent in MoP than in Cata.
Cata talents didn't have so many "choices" per say, but they mattered in a way: If you went for a certain build, then you'd stick with it for your whole arena session/raid. You wouldn't swap out things before every match. That in a way means that you have more of a "choice" in what you'd want to run with throughout your play sessions, whereas today you know you can ALWAYS swap talents around before any encounter.

Personally I found myself with much more choices in talents during Cataclysm rather than MoP. They were subtle choices sure, but they did change my playstyle and approach to certain things in a meaningful way; and I find that more valuable than having the possibility of changing all of my abilities whenever I want depending on what I'm facing just to be more "optimal".

[Turturin the Warlock]

Well nobody is really "forced" to swap out talents on every fight, unless you're doing high-end hardcore progression raids. But the thing is in my opinion that the possibility of sporting a "cookie-cutter" build is much more prevalent in MoP than in Cata.
Cata talents didn't have so many "choices" per say, but they mattered in a way: If you went for a certain build, then you'd stick with it for your whole arena session/raid. You wouldn't swap out things before every match. That in a way means that you have more of a "choice" in what you'd want to run with throughout your play sessions, whereas today you know you can ALWAYS swap talents around before any encounter.

Personally I found myself with much more choices in talents during Cataclysm rather than MoP. They were subtle choices sure, but they did change my playstyle and approach to certain things in a meaningful way; and I find that more valuable than having the possibility of changing all of my abilities whenever I want depending on what I'm facing just to be more "optimal".

Ok, what I think you're saying is that you like the choices you make to "define" your character or playstyle, at least for a while to where they couldn't be made lightly?

That's similar to an arugment some people made (llivera is one notable player) when they introduced dual-spec (i.e. I don't want dual spec, I want to be a "frost mage", thats a particular and concerted choice I've made). I'm in no way dismissing that arugment and I understand how you could feel that way, but at the same time I'd point out that that's not an issue with any given talent row or rows, it's an issue you have with the current talent design as a whole.

In that sense it has no immediate bearing on current discussion (key issues with warlock talents/class, KJC in particular). It's more of a philosophical position.

It's for this reason that while I share (as noted earlier) your view that cata destro was awesome and better in a lot of ways than what we have today, I don't spend too much time trying to get it re-introduced, but rather commenting on the current direction/state. I just feel I'm more likely to have influence that way.

[Jessicka]

Actually, he's describing the philosophy behind many of the Mage talent changes. On the one hand, I like that idea, on the other I think it risks being able to basically pick your talents to make all 3 specs play too similarly if there are too many such options between the trees due to the limited number of abilities available.

[bio347]

It's for this reason that while I share (as noted earlier) your view that cata destro was awesome and better in a lot of ways than what we have today, I don't spend too much time trying to get it re-introduced, but rather commenting on the current direction/state. I just feel I'm more likely to have influence that way.

Well, you know what they say: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." It's a good approach to feedback, too.

Recent changes and comments indicate that Blizzard is willing/going to iterate on warlock mobility, which is about the best that can be expected early in a beta test. It's better to go slowly and buff as needed than overshoot and have to nerf KJC again, imo.

[Nighthaven-]

Since your claim is comparative to others (i.e. that warlocks have the worst choices), your apparent lack of personal experience with other classes and specs you assert as having better choices is most certainly relevant, especially since you feel and state things in such an absolute manner.

It would be easier to take you seriously if your argument was constructed on the basis of why you don't like your warlock choices, rather than your sense of entitlement to better choices because of your assertion that you are worse off compared to other classes.

LOL - please bring an example of any class.
You do not appear to be confident enough to bring the tiniest example - and I stand firm by my claim.

In reality broad-class-experience by 'dumb-players' (not everyone has time for it) does not make them any more qualified than players with 'perfect' understanding of a few select specs/ classes. There's no need to have played every class to understand the game and spot the flaws of a particular class tool-kit either, as everyone in the same role has the same function.


As for your reading issues:
- It's already been deeply explained why it is so. But you can't even explain why it isn't so. There's no need to personalize every statement to make the argument readable/ identifiable of which side he/ she is on for those who are seemingly confused in understanding the issue (even if they/ you oppose it for no good reason/ claim) and what side of arguing flaws they bring up and for what reason.

You're creating a red herring here. I didn't say there were too many choices. I said on a fight to fight basis I don't feel compelled to re-think every choice I've made. For example I don't often change out of soul leech these days, but I've used dark regen to great effect as well. There's no math that compares constant DR to an on-demand "oh shit" button...it's personal preference.

Also, keybinds (or lack thereof) are not equivalent to functionality. They are separate things. Soul Leech is functional, so is soul link. So are Dark Regen and Sacrificial pact.

As for your democracy comment, there's no relation at all to what we're talking about. Game design isn't a democracy, neither is this forum. In some ways it seems you want to turn everything into a discussion on your broader world view, and I'm actually not interested in that. To the extent you'd like to discuss the specifics of your issues with the class, willing to continue listening and discuss. But I won't respond to any more of your thoughts about "the noobish-masses" or other such comments as you've made recently on these boards. Try to be a bit more constructive in your thought process and a little less binary.

Exactly. You're afraid of making the wrong choice and oppose changes that my influence your overall choices - even if you only have one (eg. AD for single-target). There's no way you want KJC and MF to be usable outside of niche circumstances. Or that's there's few choices or only one choice for certain specs.

- Why would you even bring up examples of functioning talent rows (although there's only two choices -harhar (no, that is better, but still not good)).

You're obviously not caring that row 15 and 30 only have two useful choices, or that certain talents in row 60 and 75 have extremely limited usability overall or for certain specs/ situations. Or that the 90 row has only one option for a single target fight.

These other talents you do not pick does not affect you, therefore you're afraid of them becoming better so you have to make a choice, even if you can stick to whatever you have. Wow, harsh reality.

[Rayaleith]

Answering to Nighthaven is like talking to a deaf. Don't waste your time in him.

[Deleted]

You're obviously not caring that row 15 and 30 only have two useful choices, or that certain talents in row 60 and 75 have extremely limited usability overall or for certain specs/ situations. Or that the 90 row has only one option for a single target fight.

Pretty debatable - you haven't put any kind of context into this.

It's fine to have one or two talents which are much more useful in pvp or pve, and I actually think that is pretty unavoidable (maybe limiting to 2 out of 3 choices in one or two tiers). That's fine.

I used KJC on both of the end of tier bosses in the last two tiers (for single target damage). I've used all three grimoires throughout this expansion for one spec. I'm pretty sure the only single talent I haven't used at all (for PvE) is the current iteration of blood horror.

For a single target, zero movement fight without any other mechanics to worry about? OK, maybe then we get into a situation where there really is a good set of talents to take without debate.

[Nighthaven-]

Answering to Nighthaven is like talking to a deaf. Don't waste your time in him.

By all means take the easy way out.

Bring an example if you really can, at least.

You just stated another: "It isn't so/ I disprove it because I said so" without referring to anything- Weak.

Pretty debatable - you haven't put any kind of context into this.

It's fine to have one or two talents which are much more useful in pvp or pve, and I actually think that is pretty unavoidable (maybe limiting to 2 out of 3 choices in one or two tiers). That's fine.

I used KJC on both of the end of tier bosses in the last two tiers (for single target damage). I've used all three grimoires throughout this expansion for one spec. I'm pretty sure the only single talent I haven't used at all (for PvE) is the current iteration of blood horror.

For a single target, zero movement fight without any other mechanics to worry about? OK, maybe then we get into a situation where there really is a good set of talents to take without debate.

In many rows you have two choices, but the third is incredibly sub-par even if it's non-performance-related talent row.

As for the 90 row, there's one talent (AD) that has the versatility to be used under all circumstances. They others simply can't be used outside their niche circumstances.

It's not only blood horror, it's: Demonic Breath, Harvest Life plus Blood Horror. 3 out 4 talents rows for non-performance related talents.


For row 75 and 90: These rows has equally limited options for any of our specs and that's the point: When you select a spec, you lose certain options for that spec ONLY completely.


The only 'flawless' talent row is 45.


Whether you play as spec that is not affected by it is not relevant. (-which is also the reason why people disprove it from their spec point of view)

[Dnusha]

Demonic Breath is gone, Harvest Life heals you for A LOT of health on beta, Blood Horror...I hope they'll remove it as fast as possible. PvP only talent in the same tier as Unbound Will (i.e. our new pvp trinket)

[Deleted]

Calling current KJC a 'niche' talent is ridiculous. As Whabam rightly pointed out, it has been almost a mandatory talent for the final bosses across multiple tiers, especially SoO, where not taking KJC on Blackfuse/Paragons/Garrosh progress as a Warlock would have had negative consequences for your DPS. I'm guessing he hasn't seen end game progression, so perhaps he just bases his opinions on that?

Regardless, all he does is state opinions as fact without any proof, whilst maintaining his "It is so/ I prove it because I said so" approach.

[Jessicka]

Calling current KJC a 'niche' talent is ridiculous. As Whabam rightly pointed out, it has been almost a mandatory talent for the final bosses across multiple tiers, especially SoO, where not taking KJC on Blackfuse/Paragons/Garrosh progress as a Warlock would have had negative consequences for your DPS. I'm guessing he hasn't seen end game progression, so perhaps he just bases his opinions on that?

Regardless, all he does is state opinions as fact without any proof, whilst maintaining his "It is so/ I prove it because I said so" approach.

You're right that it's not niche, but for the wrong reasons. Where KJC isn't optimal, it's certainly not a talent you'd gain nothing from on any realistic encounter. AD similarly isn't really niche either, as even when it's suboptimal, it is usable. Mannoroth's Fury is a better example of a niche, where you can spec it, and on many encounters gain zero benefit from it at all.

[Deleted]

You're right that it's not niche, but for the wrong reasons. Where KJC isn't optimal, it's certainly not a talent you'd gain nothing from on any realistic encounter. AD similarly isn't really niche either, as even when it's suboptimal, it is usable. Mannoroth's Fury is a better example of a niche, where you can spec it, and on many encounters gain zero benefit from it at all.

I agree. You worded it better than me.

[Deleted]

In many rows you have two choices, but the third is incredibly sub-par even if it's non-performance-related talent row.

I don't see a problem with that if there is still an option/diversity between them.
Why not use the 'niche' argument on this? literally the only talent I can see that doesn't have a 'use' is blood horror on PvE

As for the 90 row, there's one talent (AD) that has the versatility to be used under all circumstances. They others simply can't be used outside their niche circumstances.

That is just flat out wrong:
- There is literally one fight this tier which is completely single target and negates MF completely.
- There is not a single fight with zero movement
I'd hardly call movement or aoe 'niche' with respect to the last tier at least.

It's not only blood horror, it's: Demonic Breath, Harvest Life plus Blood Horror. 3 out 4 talents rows for non-performance related talents.

Aside from the fact that in the first tier of this expansion, harvest life was an aoe dps increase (and a single target increase for demo this tier)?
Demonic breath has different utility to the other two in that tier (which is all the tier is for?)
I'll give you blood horror.

For row 75 and 90: These rows has equally limited options for any of our specs and that's the point: When you select a spec, you lose certain options for that spec ONLY completely.

Qualify this for me:
If you are choosing a spec specifically, why does performance matter? Surely if you are looking to perform as well as you can you choose the best spec for the encounter? All three talents can have had use this tier.
If you aren't looking to do that, then why are you locked out of choosing whatever you like?

Whether you play as spec that is not affected by it is not relevant. (-which is also the reason why people disprove it from their spec point of view)

Not sure how that is not relevent. You either play whichever is completely 'best' (which also changes by tier and encounter) or you can play whatever you want (ie on farm or in flex/lfr/normal, whatever you like)

[Turturin the Warlock]

You're right that it's not niche, but for the wrong reasons. Where KJC isn't optimal, it's certainly not a talent you'd gain nothing from on any realistic encounter. AD similarly isn't really niche either, as even when it's suboptimal, it is usable. Mannoroth's Fury is a better example of a niche, where you can spec it, and on many encounters gain zero benefit from it at all.

Yes. This. Precisely the reason this resonates with many locks as a reason the talent should change. To be fair, prior to SOO, it was overpowered when usable (while still having 0 benefit at other times), and we weren't complaining (or at least I wasn't). The SOO changes to make it decent-to-meh when usable and useless most other times helped clarify for me personally that the talent idea itself is really a poor one. In other words, this is a place where I'm actually hoping they'll scrap the talent, and probably an example of a talent on which not enough feedback has been given, at least on these boards. I posted an idea on the official forums last week to replace MF with some iteration of fel flame (would need to be better, not worse than current live fel flame), but there's probably other good ideas as well that would be good tradeoffs with the other talents in the tier.

[Phoenexis]

Has anyone ever bothered using Shadowflame? I don't see how it could outshine any other talent considering so many other specs bring better AoE slows.
Having Shadowflame on a 20 second CD with 50% slow is just pathetic.
It used to be a 70% slow on a 12 second CD. Maybe then it could compete with the other two on certain occasions

[Nerraw]

Has anyone ever bothered using Shadowflame? I don't see how it could outshine any other talent considering so many other specs bring better AoE slows.
Having Shadowflame on a 20 second CD with 50% slow is just pathetic.
It used to be a 70% slow on a 12 second CD. Maybe then it could compete with the other two on certain occasions

I've used it once, and that was just to see if the old animation was still used.

[Jessicka]

Has anyone ever bothered using Shadowflame? I don't see how it could outshine any other talent considering so many other specs bring better AoE slows.
Having Shadowflame on a 20 second CD with 50% slow is just pathetic.
It used to be a 70% slow on a 12 second CD. Maybe then it could compete with the other two on certain occasions

I tried to make some use of it on Klaxxi 25H progression shortly before quitting raiding.