KJC change in WoD Alpha test

[Phoenexis]

And I'm guessing it was disappointing?
I really don't understand Blizzard. We have indeed been asking for Shadowflame's return, but not when it has to compete with 2 other top tier CCs while being completely gutted and nerfed compared to its former self...
Shadowflame can be a very potent snare that synchronizes perfectly with Conflagrate, but it has to return to a 12 second CD with 70% snare. I saw some WoD footage and I couldn't help but feel sad seeing destro locks just eating damage with barely anything to peel melee off

[Jessicka]

It worked, it was fine, but it was a measure of the situation of the time that I was using it at all; other players could and should have been using better tools for the task.

[Nighthaven-]

I don't see a problem with that if there is still an option/diversity between them.
Why not use the 'niche' argument on this? literally the only talent I can see that doesn't have a 'use' is blood horror on PvE

What you're saying: "I couldn't care if if the third (sometimes even the 2nd) talent option for this particular spec is virtually useless so long as I have two or one useful choice(s) - It isn't a problem since I at least have something, although the talent choices themselves doesn't serve the actual talent purpose"
Look from the perspective of all three specs instead of tunnel-visioning from your spec PoV.
It's not that certain talents can't be used, but many talents somehow can't be used for particular specs.

The needed change is to make the talents universally useful (by making the work differently for each spec, where needed), without having them bland. It is fine that there is an optimal talent, but it is not when certain talents are completely 'useless' outside of specific scenarios. You can cling on to that you can find a use for it, but that doesn't mean it's a competitive (also applies to situational talents) talent compared to the row.

That is just flat out wrong:
- There is literally one fight this tier which is completely single target and negates MF completely.
- There is not a single fight with zero movement
I'd hardly call movement or aoe 'niche' with respect to the last tier at least.

You fail to look at things in context. It's not about if some specs have may have use for them, but about that they're not universal for all three specs which is choice limitation.
I might have been slightly biased from Demonology PoV, but whether KJC is less of an annoyance solver, making life easier for your filler only/ non-number crucial casted spell (as it only affects low-dps fillers) - seemingly making gameplay for fluid, doesn't mean it's a competitive talent (as the amount of non-interrupted KJC fillers doesn't compare to second dark soul + dps/ resource-gen from Fel Flame), and whether it is a popular talent for the masses that 'like having it easy/ fluid gameplay' populace or not, is not relevant either.

It's just not competitive. AD can always catch up, but not the other way around. KJC cannot catch up where it is useless.
Same applies to MF for all the above, plus it is usually used for padding/ things that are not relevant.

There's also the case for unpredictability and for the unknown (mostly PvP (as they may not choose to attack you) and sudden world combat), you may never get anything from KJC nor MF should you not already know the fight mechanics. Which makes KJC and MF sub-par talents for progress also.

It is niche, as it only can be useful under certain conditions, but even then - it may not be relevant nor do anything better.
AD on the other hand, can always be used as it is versatile.

Aside from the fact that in the first tier of this expansion, harvest life was an aoe dps increase (and a single target increase for demo this tier)?
Demonic breath has different utility to the other two in that tier (which is all the tier is for?)
I'll give you blood horror.

That's just ignorance.
Realistically, for 99% of all circumstances, there is a choice between two truly equally useful talents, except for 45. If there is anything to be gained from the third talent, it so little that it simply doesn't compete. This doesn't mean that a particular talent can't be used, it just niche in the grand-scheme of things.

Harvest life, Demonic breath, blood-horror, Burning rush (PvP niche (FC)), Service for Affl. & Dstr., KJC for Demo, MF for Affl. and to some extent Dstr., and to some extent KJC for Affli (extra MG's do not compare to a second Dark Soul+proc Timing).

That's an awful lot of talents. It usually affects each spec individually.
No other class has it this way.

Qualify this for me:
If you are choosing a spec specifically, why does performance matter? Surely if you are looking to perform as well as you can you choose the best spec for the encounter? All three talents can have had use this tier.
If you aren't looking to do that, then why are you locked out of choosing whatever you like?

...
Why should certain talents only apply to/ be useful for certain specs? You're supporting choice limitation by simply preferring have it easy and not 'confusing' as you apparently are satisfied by having something.
Why should certain specs be dependent on certain talents?
Why should performance of talents not matter in cases where it's useless?

I's not about limitation of choosing what I like, but what can be actually useful in a 'competition' (as most but not all things are).
- It may be fun to choose obsolete talents for nostalgia reasons or refreshment and finding use for it - but that does not make that talent qualify for actual performance compared to the row. Especially for the majority of the players.

If MF cannot be used for anything actually useful as it mostly used for Padding, and if you could do more relevant dps with AD - that talent is not useful nor competitive compared to the row.
If KJCs lost filler casts without it doesn't add up to a second Dark Soul together with Fel Flame and it's resources it provides) - It's not really useful that talent either. (But sure it's practical! ...)

Not sure how that is not relevent. You either play whichever is completely 'best' (which also changes by tier and encounter) or you can play whatever you want (ie on farm or in flex/lfr/normal, whatever you like)

In your way, I could equally say that the Grimoire talent row is completely fine since I play Demonology only*(If I did and assuming I can get something out of Sacrifice in an obscure scenario).
I do not however think that arguing from my spec PoV only is remotely relevant.
Service is virtually useless for Affliction and Destruction, but you can still use it, and it's competitive number wise, but it doesn't provide anything. Service is not the worst case, but for the other talents you may not gain anything at all, and they may not compete in numbers either.

Does MF for Affliction seemingly add up compared to a Second Dark-soul? Oh yeah, it can be used for Demo, which obviously makes it can okay talent... not.

[Turturin the Warlock]

The point is, that's an awful lot of talents. No other class has it this way.

Stop saying we're in a worse position than all other classes. Just not true. You've cited about 6 talents per spec you view as useless. Let's put aside for a moment that your list is arguable in a couple of cases (burning rush in particular, kjc for affliction as well) and assume that 6 is the right number. That's hardly out of line with other classes meaningful choices in PvE raiding.

In PvE raiding these are talents i would never notice if not there:
on my spriest: psyfiend, dominate mind, phantasm, spectral guise, desperate prayer, void tendrils, power infusion

on my prot paladin:long arm of the law, evil is a point of view, repentance, selfless healer, unbreakable spirit, along with a very niche hand of purity

on my prot warrior: juggernaut, warbringer, second wind, impending victory, staggering shout, mass spell reflect, shockwave (hugely niche), avatar.

[Nighthaven-]

Stop saying we're in a worse position than all other classes. Just not true. You've cited about 6 talents per spec you view as useless. Let's put aside for a moment that your list is arguable in a couple of cases (burning rush in particular, kjc for affliction as well) and assume that 6 is the right number. That's hardly out of line with other classes meaningful choices in PvE raiding.

In PvE raiding these are talents i would never notice if not there:
on my spriest: psyfiend, dominate mind, phantasm, spectral guise, desperate prayer, void tendrils, power infusion

on my prot paladin:long arm of the law, evil is a point of view, repentance, selfless healer, unbreakable spirit, along with a very niche hand of purity

on my prot warrior: juggernaut, warbringer, second wind, impending victory, staggering shout, mass spell reflect, shockwave (hugely niche), avatar.

Ignorance,
6 talents is 1/3 as there aren't that many talents. In that case you have a choice of two talents per row on average which is what you're ignoring.

Someone is bound to be on the bottom of anything. I believe it is Warlocks. Since you're so certain that it is not, why can't you just go refer to any other class that will have no benefit of a particular talents at in certain conditions?

Ridiculous.
You are also listing non-performance related talents which is meaningless when you tunnel-vision for PvE only. In that case I can point at every CC talent too, which has equally terrible relevancy for content they do not apply to.

This doesn't mean that there cannot be useless non-performance related talents in such talent-rows either.


Tell me of a performance related talent that you will never benefit from in certain conditions, as with KJC and MF.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Ignorance,
6 talents is 1/3 as there aren't that many talents. In that case you have a choice of two talents per row on average which is what you're ignoring.

Someone is bound to be on the bottom of anything. I believe it is Warlocks. Since you're so certain that it is not, why can't you just go refer to any other class that will have no benefit of a particular talents at in certain conditions?

Ridiculous.
You are also listing non-performance related talents which is meaningless when you tunnel-vision for PvE only. In that case I can point at every CC talent too, which has equally terrible relevancy for content they do not apply to.

This doesn't mean that there cannot be useless non-performance related talents in such talent-rows either.


Tell me of a performance related talent that you will never benefit from in certain conditions, as with KJC and MF.

So you're allowed to use utility talents in your calculus in making your argument, but I'm not? That's not logical.

If your only real complaint is about KJC and MF then stick to that, and I'll be happy to stick to performance related rows for the classes I've provided example for. You keep changing what you are arguing about.

I've agreed multiple times with you on MF. I don't really agree on KJC. Fight length, timing of phases, amount of movement required when you have to move, make the actual decision more complicated than the simple math you've referred to. I think all in all, there is a legit choice between current KJC and AD, although maybe not for Demo - having not played it that much this tier I concede it's possible the balance is tipped to far for that spec. But for destro and affliction AD will usually have the higher reward potential, but also comes with more risk than KJC does. To me that tradeoff is ok.

[Nighthaven-]

So you're allowed to use utility talents in your calculus in making your argument, but I'm not? That's not logical.

If your only real complaint is about KJC and MF then stick to that, and I'll be happy to stick to performance related rows for the classes I've provided example for. You keep changing what you are arguing about.

I've agreed multiple times with you on MF. I don't really agree on KJC. Fight length, timing of phases, amount of movement required when you have to move, make the actual decision more complicated than the simple math you've referred to. I think all in all, there is a legit choice between current KJC and AD, although maybe not for Demo - having not played it that much this tier I concede it's possible the balance is tipped to far for that spec. But for destro and affliction AD will usually have the higher reward potential, but also comes with more risk than KJC does. To me that tradeoff is ok.

Because you're not comparing it in any relevant way.
The difference is: They all can be used for either PvE or PvP only (which is bad too, to a less extent), but they're not useless for certain specs within the class for both primary purposes (which is PvE and PvP).
Popularity is another thing even when competing talents still perform.


The point is, when referring to KJC itself, when you do not benefit from KJC at all it doesn't provide anything, unlike other classes' talents. Talents of other classes always provide something, and many Warlock talent rows also have talents that provide 'virtually' nothing for particular specs.
If you want AoE for Demo, you are forced to pick MF. If you want a useful talent in single target/ focus fight, you are forced to pick AD.

[Deleted]

The point is, when referring to KJC itself, when you do not benefit from KJC at all it doesn't provide anything, unlike other classes' talents. Talents of other classes always provide something, and many Warlock talent rows also have talents that provide 'virtually' nothing for particular specs.
If you want AoE for Demo, you are forced to pick MF. If you want a useful talent in single target/ focus fight, you are forced to pick AD.

OK then, tell me a fight where you can get zero benefit from KJC?
I'd wager that most of the time it gives you more of a benefit than say shockwave does compared to bladestorm/dragon roar as a warrior?

As for AoE in Demo, its easy to top the aoe charts without MF (say on Thok bats?), and I've used KJC as demo on Lei Shen progress (as did many other warlocks) which is a largely single target fight.

[Jessicka]

OK then, tell me a fight where you can get zero benefit from KJC?
I'd wager that most of the time it gives you more of a benefit than say shockwave does compared to bladestorm/dragon roar as a warrior?

As for AoE in Demo, its easy to top the aoe charts without MF (say on Thok bats?), and I've used KJC as demo on Lei Shen progress (as did many other warlocks) which is a largely single target fight.

Yeah, I've been ignoring Nighthaven's rather high handed tone, but what you're saying resonates with what I posted on the Beta Class forums:-

______________

In a discussion of the level 90 talents, it's very easy to get lost in the debate over Kil'Jaeden's Cunning. Yes, on Live it is without a doubt overpowered. It is also hugely over-represented in use compared to the alternatives, and it is all too easy to accept that that reason is simply because it is overpowered. That perception also makes it very easy to concentrate the argument on 'hammering the nail down', which looks like the easy option because it means solely focusing on this one talent.

It's not always true though. The further down you hammer the nail, the smaller the margins are in which to fit it to bring about something close to even. At this point, KJC has been iterated on in every content patch since 5.0. That's not desirable for anyone. Not the players who need to keep up with changes, nor designers who would probably want to look at other things. So why not bring the others up? That should instantly make KJC less desirable, if the alternatives offer a more perceptable, and usable power boost. That is afterall why KJC in it's Live, or Beta incarnation is always going to be desirable; you'll always get to see the benefit from it.

Let's take a look first at Archimonde's Darkness. I happen to love it as a talent, it's neat, simple, and offers a decent power boost. But it's a one shot. As encounters grow longer - so when you're progressing fights for the first time, or grouped with strangers who aren't throwing out as much damage as your guildmates, that extra Dark Soul gets kinda lost and forgotten about. So, what if Archimonde's Darkness also increased your benefit from Dark Soul by 5%? That's not going to get lost, and right there you can see on the tooltip that there's some free damage going on there. Suddenly it's a lot more attractive, more useful, and you're always going to gain from it. And taking KJC is taking a little more of a penalty in terms of trading DPS for mobility.

The other alternative, Mannoroth's Fury, is the real sore thumb. You can take this talent, and throughout an encounter see no benefit from it whatsoever because there's no reason to push the button. In it's pre-5.4 incarnation as a passive increase, you might not get much benefit, but you didn't have to push a button either. It wasn't an inconvenience. In it's current Live form, it's another keybind, another cooldown to stack. Many players are short of those, and a keybind for something you might not use anyway seems even more wasteful as a talent to spec into. Even where there might be cases in the encounter where you push the button, you won't use it often; maybe those one or two add-phases that you're actually lucky enough that the adds spawn while it's not on cooldown. At that point, so we really want to math out whether we gain more from the extra keystroke of hitting MF, or the extra DS from AD? Do we really want or need the extra keystroke of another cooldown to stack for that add phase? Is it adding any depth to gameplay? You can see how this is so incredibly unpopular - it completely lacks the universality of the alternatives, while offering very little where it is useful. And those few places where it is useful, which it is for Demonology, it gives rise to that common complaint of feeling weak in between those stacked cooldowns or if we're not specced into it at all. Frankly, as a niche talent on a row up against two very universal talents, it's never going to stand a chance outside of very exceptional circumstances for all three specs.

I therefore think it's important that the alternatives to KJC are much more seriously looked at, because more and more rounds of changes to KJC just can't be tenable.

[Nighthaven-]

OK then, tell me a fight where you can get zero benefit from KJC?
I'd wager that most of the time it gives you more of a benefit than say shockwave does compared to bladestorm/dragon roar as a warrior?

As for AoE in Demo, its easy to top the aoe charts without MF (say on Thok bats?), and I've used KJC as demo on Lei Shen progress (as did many other warlocks) which is a largely single target fight.

It's not only about zero benefit either. It is mostly about relative benefit compared to AD (+MF/ the other talents).
KJC is only marginally more useful for Destruction only. But it's still only limited to fillers that provide low dps. It doesn't help your critical numerical component either, namely Chaos-bolt.

If those non-interrupted filler casts with KJC doesn't equalize a Dark Soul + what Fel Flame provides (and the guaranteed chance to sync every DS with a major proc), it is isn't actually useful. Which in many cases where KJC may be used, KJC still doesn't compete in numbers. It convenient and seemingly more fluid, but not numerical better.


But when it has zero benefit, it is worthless (zero value only high-lights it's main flaw).
It's not only about PvE and you may never know when it is totally useless for PvP (they might even not choose to target you), but it is even useless for the unpredictable: progress and sudden world combat.

PvP will always represent the pinnacle of WoW complexity (no matter how bad it is or not) as PvE is only ever 'fixed/ predictable' variations of it. All the elements of sudden movement, selective synergy with classes, coordination, ability and talent clunkiness and dps (in addition to more factors such as CC) come into play.
You ultimately do the same/ most of these things in PvE, but it is fixed.
Whatever talent that is not versatile enough is not competitive for a good reason, as they tend to 'not happen.'


As for the Warrior talents, they all provide damage no matter what: they all still do damage. KJC and MF is not like that, but AD is (which makes AD a superior talent).
Those warrior talents obviously have different popularity values in PvE and PvP, but that is because of their utility and the likeness of lining up their cd and damage relative values with procs. They're even balanced numerically.



When it comes to your question, I am unfortunately biased towards Demonology for PvE only, and I never ever used KJC (even for Heroic content) or did even have the slightest thought of where it may, if at all be anywhere near beneficial. But for the major populace, they wouldn't even benefit from KJC numerically (although it is convenient) for all the normal mode fights (+ many HC fights) and below (with exception of normal Garrosh, which I can think of, for the other specs only).


But knowing that Affliction is so strongly dependent on 'artificially' buffed DoTs in trinket procs with snapshotting, coupled with a low-dps filler which doesn't equally provide a resource boost when channeled compared to embers and DF from Fel Flame - It is only Destruction that benefits from it, as they go OOM+ having back-draft/ non-static filler. But Destruction players can still can get around not having KJC issue to a large extent, as the better Warlocks do in PvP.

If that MF padding with Demonology only serves you, it is not useful for the group whether you look better on the meters or not.

___________________________________________________

@Jessicka

True, but I disagree that KJC is the ultimate talent in that row - more so that AD is, as KJC only majorly beneficial for Destruction only and then only for heavy movement. AD provides something for every spec.

KJC isn't universally beneficial for all three specs, but Affliction would have had more use for it with the merging MG and DS as of current WoD, provided current KJC of MoP was kept. If anything I would say that KJC would need a output boost in the current non passive WoD incarnation, so it provides something when it ultimately cannot be used. Same thing with MF.


For example that KJC provides a increased multi-strike buff during Dark Soul and a similar thing for MF.


Druids Heart of the Wild for example always provides something.

[Turturin the Warlock]

@ Jessica Your post was a good one. Of course with the new new KJC they are trying at 8secs/1min cd, aff and destro are going to glyph dark soul and macro it to kjc, which means they may as well just roll it into dark soul if that's what they want to do.

AD = extra charges
KJC = you can move while casting while dark soul is active
Mannoroth's Fel Flame = You get the ability fel flame. It is instant cast with no CD. it does 1.5x as much damage as your DS/shadowbolt/incin on a dpet basis, but costs Y times as much mana (where Y is enough to make it a noticable sustained dps loss to use for all the time - i.e. you would only want to use while moving). Fel Flame grants Demonic Fury and Burning Embers, and counts as a tick of corruption for the purposes of nightfall procs.

[Nerraw]

Forget what I said.

https://twitter.com/Rygarius/status/487743483189686272

[Jessicka]

KJC is universal in that you will always gain something. When you balance that against MF, then on many fights the extra mobility is no penalty at all. Against AD, then it depends on the encounter length and in part on RNG as to how much benefit from the additional DS you actually gain. That makes it very difficult to gauge, so those questions make it less attractive. It needs to be an absolute cut and clear bonus, so KJC has a much clearer trade off.

- - - Updated - - -

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced MF should just be a straight, passive DPS boost. This isn't a mobility talent row. It's a DPS row with crappy DPS talents which may or may not benefit you against a mobility talent that will always benefit you.

KJC - Either Live or Beta form.
AD - DS now has two charges and increases your DS effect by X%
MF - Increases your Versatility by an additional X%

Two clear bonuses to DPS, one active, one passive with a bit of a survival bonus, and one for increased mobility traded off against those bonuses.

[foxyloxy]

What a joke? KJC was being problematic... so we did what we did. We removed fel flame too.

But,

Brain Freeze makes FrostFire Bolt instant and it can stack up to 2.
Ice Lance Dmg doubled.
Set Bonus - Permanent Fingers of Frost when Frozen Orb is active.

[Deleted]

you're forgetting fire's setbonus with their 6 sec hot streak with 100% crit.

[Kagecamia]

So wait. Is fel flame back now? Or are we stuck in limbo.

I am really starting to lose faith in the devs right now in regards to mobility. The whole purpose of toning down instants was to balance ranged.

Now all I see is Blizz going back on what they planned with mobility with mages and are pretty much leaving us ignored.

It does seem pretty retarded and sketchy if you ask me.

[Nerraw]

It's not back, it's just the most confusing set of patch notes ever concieved by man.

[Turturin the Warlock]

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced MF should just be a straight, passive DPS boost. This isn't a mobility talent row. It's a DPS row with crappy DPS talents which may or may not benefit you against a mobility talent that will always benefit you.

KJC - Either Live or Beta form.
AD - DS now has two charges and increases your DS effect by X%
MF - Increases your Versatility by an additional X%

Two clear bonuses to DPS, one active, one passive with a bit of a survival bonus, and one for increased mobility traded off against those bonuses.

Not going to happen. There's no talents anymore that are just "increases stat A by X%", that's the vanilla-to-cata style. Can't expect it to return. MF should be redesigned to give a dps increase in a broad sense (i.e. not just limited AoE scenarios), but it has to do so in a way that adds functionality or changes/enhances existing functionality.

I've proposed they just add fel flame as the MF talent replacement (a more powerful fel flame than is on live today. If there are other ideas let's post them.

Not judging the worth of your idea, only its likelihood for serious consideration. suggesting something completely contrary to the current talent design won't get us anywhere.

[Nighthaven-]

KJC is universal in that you will always gain something. When you balance that against MF, then on many fights the extra mobility is no penalty at all. Against AD, then it depends on the encounter length and in part on RNG as to how much benefit from the additional DS you actually gain. That makes it very difficult to gauge, so those questions make it less attractive. It needs to be an absolute cut and clear bonus, so KJC has a much clearer trade off.

Heresy!
as that is not accurate.

For most scenarios, you simply do not gain anything of real value from KJC, even if you do, that 'something' has to be numerically equal (towards the other talents) or relevant/ non-personal gain/ no unnecessary padding.


KJC is not universal either as it is only ever mostly useful for Destruction only, even then: it doesn't lighten your numerically critical spell, it is also limited to be 'useful' in PvE only and mostly HC, and in many cases: it is at best on even footing, but mostly numerically inferior compared to what two timely Dark Souls provides.

KJC is also for certain much weaker for the unknown, mainly PvP: as they might not even choose to target you and then you receive nothing from it, should you have 'wrongly' anticipated attacks on you, but even if you can use it - it has also little relative value, as there is not much to be gained from fillers (which also applies to PvE). Fel Flame provides resources, and so does a Second DS for Affliction dwarfing extra MG Corruption ticks for Nightfall) but KJC is also weak for progress (as you simply do not know) and sudden world combat.

AD has doesn't have this weakness in any way and can always be used in all other/ any scenario(s), compared to KJC and even MF - which makes AD a true universal talent.

KJC requires quite a dozen lost trivial-filler casts to be remotely compared to AD, as with AD:
- You are highly most likely to sync all your Dark Souls with procs, unlike non-AD options.
- You gain much more resources from higher up-time on Haste boosted Corruption for Affliction compared to extra MG Corruption ticks.
- A second Dark Soul also provides resources boost for Destruction too (even if you are moving).
- Fel flame provides a comparable amount of resources and the off-set damage isn't far off.
- For Demonology it is too dependent on strong burst phases.
- Affliction is also too dependent on artificially buffed DoTs during snapshotting.
- Even Destruction.

As of this,
under almost all circumstances, what KJC provides when it can provide: it is most trivial for being seemingly convenient.



Which ultimately, makes KJC a trivial Destruction in HC PvE talent only.

[Jessicka]

I think you missed the point entirely. That is that the minimum benefit of KJC is always higher than the minimum benefit of the alternatives. Those alternatives might offer a slightly higher max benefit, but only situationally, and only at high levels. Effectively that means as a baseline, the extra mobility doesn't come at much, if any real penalty.

It's also ridiculous to focus on heroic PVE content for your argument too as there are so many aspects of the game.

Ultimately it comes down to lowering the floor for KJC, or raising it for AD and MF. The latter just seems much easier because the floor for KJC can't get much lower.