Someone help me figure out my "problem" with D3...

[alturic]

Ok, so I've always been a hardcore raider by all definitions of the word. I could sit in a raid for hours on end (forgoing people failing at the same mechanics lol) working on progression on a boss, etc and technically speaking Diablo 3 is, to me nothing more than a never-changing raid. I mean that Act 1 could be considered the first wing of a dungeon, Act 2 the second wing, etc.

It's the same with Path of Exile for me and why I couldn't be bothered to even play it more in beta. For some reason, I just can't look at D3 the same way as any game, and get extremely bored running the same thing over and over and over and over again. Perhaps it's because 99.9% of the gear that drops isn't an upgrade in any way, shape or form and I'm nowhere near geared well? Perhaps it's because unlike any other raiding MMO outside of an expansion coming out (adding one new raid wing persay with RoS) it's always the same exact raid and bosses? Perhaps it's because D3 isn't really meant to be played more than say 3 run-throughs a day or something?

I think it's a pretty decent game, don't get me wrong, but I don't know... lol

I really don't know if this was meant as a question, general opinion or what but I'm just curious how you guys play the same exactly? Can you actually play for more than 30 minutes a day? How do you make it feel "fun" by running the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again?

[Razorlor]

If it isn't fun to you. It never will be.

Try playing Hardcore, adds a lot more importance to proper execution.

[Tzalix]

Sounds like the D3 and PoE gamestyle just isn't for you. Personally I can play them for days without getting bored. I just zone out in the slaughtering of thousands of monsters and demons. I find it lovely.

Try playing it just a little bit each day, like run a rift or do an act of bounties. Perhaps you'll enjoy it more then. If not, then it might just not be for you.

[AeneasBK]

Theres lots of build options. Gear is an enabler for different builds. Different builds = different playstyles. The aim isn't only to kill demons until you can kill them on the hardest difficulty. It also includes trying out diverse new builds to kill them in different ways.

Also it can be played on a "pay attention an dodge stuff/react or die horribly" difficulty or "cheese through things half asleep watching demon chunks explode around the screen in a spray of giblets" difficulty. And it lends itself well as something to do when just "chilling" with friends on voice chat because of this as you don't have to focus too hard on the game if you don't want to. In fact, the "more efficient" manners of farming require you to play on a difficulty where the demons die before they get half a chance to hurt you; which is suitable for relaxed "casual" playing with friends.

[alturic]

Sounds like the D3 and PoE gamestyle just isn't for you. Personally I can play them for days without getting bored. I just zone out in the slaughtering of thousands of monsters and demons. I find it lovely.

Try playing it just a little bit each day, like run a rift or do an act of bounties. Perhaps you'll enjoy it more then. If not, then it might just not be for you.

While I could agree with no real progression type gear games appealing to me, it's just odd because at it's core D3 is exactly like raiding in WoW/MMORPGs. I don't have a problem with running the same raid over and over (although it's possible because no MMORPG with raiding is literally the SAME raid... over and over, unsure) but it's definitely different to me for some reason with D3/PoE.

You know, your final three sentences are intriguing and perhaps it's because I've literally always preferred MMORPGs over anything else but I think you may have hit the nail on the head with why I can't seem to "get into" D3. I tend to have no problem easily getting lost investing tons of time into games but with Diablo I just don't see it. My playstyle isn't that of playing "just a bit", it's either all or nothing for me. :-/

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Theres lots of build options. Gear is an enabler for different builds. Different builds = different playstyles. The aim isn't only to kill demons until you can kill them on the hardest difficulty. It also includes trying out diverse new builds to kill them in different ways.

Also it can be played on a "pay attention an dodge stuff/react or die horribly" difficulty or "cheese through things half asleep watching demon chunks explode around the screen in a spray of giblets" difficulty. And it lends itself well as something to do when just "chilling" with friends on voice chat because of this as you don't have to focus too hard on the game if you don't want to. In fact, the "more efficient" manners of farming require you to play on a difficulty where the demons die before they get half a chance to hurt you; which is suitable for relaxed "casual" playing with friends.

You know, acquiring different sets of gear to try different builds (such as fire gear to try the latest DH fire build) just doesn't appeal to me. Like I said to Tzalix, I think that's probably my other problem with the game.

[Fencers]

You might think Diablo 3 is a decent game, fun even in a certain sense. But that doesn't mean that D3 is as enjoyable for you as it is for others.

Just as an example I find many other games "decent"/"fun" but I am not really compelled to play them all that much. They are not bad games, per se. They just don't turn my crank. This is perfectly fine.

To answer your questions:

I really don't know if this was meant as a question, general opinion or what but I'm just curious how you guys play the same exactly? Can you actually play for more than 30 minutes a day? How do you make it feel "fun" by running the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again?

Many ARPGs are essentially spreadsheets. A lot of the draw in a Diablo or Path of Exile is intellectual or hypothetical. "Ah, 135% crit damage with 120% crit chance... if I increase my cold damage by 20% with a 10% cd reduction..."

These things have little or no practical end as Diablo and Path of Exile can be well completed without any abstraction. But the long term draw is firmly rooted on enjoying the chase for gear that proves a mathematical outcome.

it's just odd because at it's core D3 is exactly like raiding in WoW/MMORPGs

No. This is wrong in design, gameplay, structure and philosophy.

It is in no way true.

[Lubricious]

Why would you continue to farm the same raid week after week after week? I mean, the encounters are essentially the same, so why do them over and over and over again?

You see, it's simply a matter of what you enjoy doing. If you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it. If you do, you do. I enjoy both raiding in WoW and I enjoy playing D3. I won't feel like I'm done in D3 until I've cleared the game in Torment 6, which from the look of things is going to take me quite some time.

[Seezer]

Ok, so I've always been a hardcore raider by all definitions of the word. I could sit in a raid for hours on end (forgoing people failing at the same mechanics lol) working on progression on a boss, etc and technically speaking Diablo 3 is, to me nothing more than a never-changing raid. I mean that Act 1 could be considered the first wing of a dungeon, Act 2 the second wing, etc.

It's the same with Path of Exile for me and why I couldn't be bothered to even play it more in beta. For some reason, I just can't look at D3 the same way as any game, and get extremely bored running the same thing over and over and over and over again. Perhaps it's because 99.9% of the gear that drops isn't an upgrade in any way, shape or form and I'm nowhere near geared well? Perhaps it's because unlike any other raiding MMO outside of an expansion coming out (adding one new raid wing persay with RoS) it's always the same exact raid and bosses? Perhaps it's because D3 isn't really meant to be played more than say 3 run-throughs a day or something?

I think it's a pretty decent game, don't get me wrong, but I don't know... lol

I really don't know if this was meant as a question, general opinion or what but I'm just curious how you guys play the same exactly? Can you actually play for more than 30 minutes a day? How do you make it feel "fun" by running the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again?

Sometimes our taste doesn't need to be analyzed. If you don't like it, then it's not for you. You don't need to understand it.

[alturic]

You might think Diablo 3 is a decent game, fun even in a certain sense. But that doesn't mean that D3 is as enjoyable for you as it is for others.

Just as an example I find many other games "decent"/"fun" but I am not really compelled to play them all that much. They are not bad games, per se. They just don't turn my crank. This is perfectly fine.

To answer your questions:



Many ARPGs are essentially spreadsheets. A lot of the draw in a Diablo or Path of Exile is intellectual or hypothetical. "Ah, 135% crit damage with 120% crit chance... if I increase my cold damage by 20% with a 10% cd reduction..."

These things have little or no practical end as Diablo and Path of Exile can be well completed without any abstraction. But the long term draw is firmly rooted on enjoying the chase for gear that proves a mathematical outcome.

No. This is wrong in design, gameplay, structure and philosophy.

It is in no way true.

Eh? Traditional raiding MMOs are running the same raid, killing the same bosses over and over in the hopes of getting an upgrade, until the next raid comes out which in Diablo's case would be an expansion. Sure, the actual loot in traditional MMORPGs is static, but how is it somehow different?

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Why would you continue to farm the same raid week after week after week? I mean, the encounters are essentially the same, so why do them over and over and over again?

You see, it's simply a matter of what you enjoy doing. If you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it. If you do, you do. I enjoy both raiding in WoW and I enjoy playing D3. I won't feel like I'm done in D3 until I've cleared the game in Torment 6, which from the look of things is going to take me quite some time.

That's kinda my point. I have no problem... I actually enjoy (what else is there to do outside of PvP? lol) running the same raid over and over in traditional raid-based MMOs.

[Retlul]

I dont know if you play softcore or HC, but for me tuning it up to HC changed the experience alot. I have now deleted all my softcore chars except my old "main" with close to 300h played.
But also HC isnt for everyone, if you cant handle loosing a char you have spent 100h gearing dont play HC :P
I thought I wouldnt like HC just because of loosing that much time if your char die sounded pointless. But now I rly fall asleap just thinking about playing softcore. And I have lost well geared character and I will lose more :P

[Deleted]

... it's just odd because at it's core D3 is exactly like raiding in WoW/MMORPGs.

Don't know how you do it but I see almost no correlation between D3 (ARPG) and WoW (MMORPG). They are both RPGs but that is about it. Rifting in D3 is also nothing like raiding in WoW; the rift is completely randomized, from maps, to levels, and to bosses and loot. The bosses have no phases or mechanics to speak of, from the odd twister or fireball that you may or may not have to dodge. Bounties are not quests and collecting shards and spending them on Kadala is completely unlike spending tokens to purchase raiding gear.

The entire approach to gear is the exact opposite. There are no loot tables in D3 and no real end game; the experience itself does not change between running T1 and T6, if you have the appropriate gear. The gear is simply a pretense to run higher torment rifts to farm more of the same gear.

[alturic]

Don't know how you do it but I see almost no correlation between D3 (ARPG) and WoW (MMORPG). They are both RPGs but that is about it. Rifting in D3 is also nothing like raiding in WoW; the rift is completely randomized, from maps, to levels, and to bosses and loot. The bosses have no phases or mechanics to speak of, from the odd twister or fireball that you may or may not have to dodge. Bounties are not quests and collecting shards and spending them on Kadala is completely unlike spending tokens to purchase raiding gear.

The entire approach to gear is the exact opposite. There are no loot tables in D3 and no real end game; the experience itself does not change between running T1 and T6, if you have the appropriate gear. The gear is simply a pretense to run higher torment rifts to farm more of the same gear.

Just going to say (which I already did) that outside of mobs not having a set loot table, the rest of your example is the exact same thing in raiding MMOs. You acquire gear to kill bosses on higher difficulty.

[Deleted]

Just going to say (which I already did) that outside of mobs not having a set loot table, the rest of your example is the exact same thing in raiding MMOs. You acquire gear to kill bosses on higher difficulty.

No, it really isn't. You are comparing apples to oranges, and that sounds to me like the thrust of your problem; you have convinced yourself that because both games are about collecting loot, with difficulty levels and bosses to kill, that the two are somehow the same, and then getting baffled why they both are not appealing to you.

To me, there is no mystery here, since it is obvious that the experience of grinding loot in D3 has almost no similarities to raiding in an MMORPG, like WoW. The first is very engaging, does not require group dynamics of any kind, and, in fact, I frequently listen to audiobooks or anything else that takes my attention away from the game.

The second is the opposite however, which is a very active and demanding group activity, that requires a great deal of focus and concentration.

[Fencers]

Eh? Traditional raiding MMOs are running the same raid, killing the same bosses over and over in the hopes of getting an upgrade, until the next raid comes out which in Diablo's case would be an expansion. Sure, the actual loot in traditional MMORPGs is static, but how is it somehow different?

That's not actually traditional raiding, by the way. It's the the style of raiding popularized in 2nd era MMOs specifically.

I realize this is a World of Warcraft fansite and you seem to be making reference to the instanced style of raiding in 2nd era MMOs. Specifically again, in World of Warcraft. So I will point out a few key differences mainly in structure why D3 is not comparable. Because they break the causation of gameplay.

For example, gear is an eventuality in 2nd era MMO raiding. The items are absolute provided one can overcome the encounter- a glove drops with the same set of stats all the time. In Diablo a great factor of it's gameplay is the gear/loot is inherently random and not an eventuality.

Provided one can overcome the dragon boss in popularized 2nd era style of raiding; they will eventually net the gear they desire & useful to them at the rate allowed by both time and chance. This gear is also designed to be post-game, or Endgame. Which is a penultimate state of narrowed options before the closing of a game (by it's rule set/goals).

With regards to an MMO the Endgame is an ongoing state due to planned obsolesce. Statistical increases are used to met X threshold, gains thereafter are superfluous until the threshold is raised again. Such as a "raid tier"; tier 1, tier 2, 3, etc.

When playing Diablo or other popular ARPGs like Path of Exile or Torchlight- these factors are nonexistent and irrelevant. The acquisition of gear is not dependent on overcoming a specific challenge (our raid dragon example above); it's just stuff that drops. There is no guarantee the stat arrangement of an item will be desirable, useful or even the best in a given range.

Also there is no planned obsolesce at the "endgame" of an ARPG. Meeting the threshold for X content is only relevant till it can be met. Further gains are purely academic.

From a design point of view, I the game design would be aiming to provide a fundamentally different experience of satisfaction for player effort in the two genres and their respective modus of play.

In the first, "raiding", my goal is to satisfy your efforts by giving you rewards perfectly aligned to your goals. You are stronger, faster and better suited now for the next challenge! Huzzah!

In an ARPG my goal is to satisfy your efforts, "farming", by denial. You chance upon the loot piece, it is poorly rolled. You continue onward and chance upon a better version of the earlier loot piece. Huzzah! You are stronger, faster and can continue as you have with the satisfaction that your statistical gains are higher!

The reward of "loot" plays upon differing senses of satisfaction. The former being, "Yea, you did it! Ready for more?" type feeling. While the latter is more academic.

[aurpona]

Op, you are looking at diablo in the wrong sense. It is not like raiding, at most there are only 4 people in a group. There are no dedicated healers, the bosses are completely random, you never know when you will get an upgrade. Will it be off this boss, or will it come from that pot? It's about the adventure and the grind, not the repetition or the beating of your head on the keyboard because there is a retard in your group that doesn't understand mechanics. The sooner you realize this is not wow or any other mmo, the sooner you may like it...

[Lora]

Don't treat it like an mmo and you'll have fun.

[miffy23]

I play in erratic sessions of a few hours at a time, mostly.

And OP, the game is simply not for you. Strictly speaking, you're doing "the same thing over and over again" in most games, most certainly in WoW, with little variation. Diablo is just simplified even further.

If you don't enjoy the "slot machine" feel of an ARPG, you won't ever enjoy it. The fun of it is getting hooked on the item hunt, and getting excited when certain colours drop. All the rest of the game, exploring the classes, playing the story, lasts the average player maybe 20 hours or so. And that's still ok-ish time investment based on most games released nowadays - but the average Diablo gamer will sink in hours daily just to hunt more drops.

[Ferocity]

I agree with OP by adding one of the reasons: most of modern ARPGs (CRPGs in general too) never evolved (if only other way around). That's like someone said on other gameforum:

Far too many adhere to the simple structure set by early games of this type. For fusk sake people, this is 20-goddamn-11. Many games have 3D models with polygon counts exceeding the number of base items in most games of this genre. Pathetic. We should be having item systems like in the Fate series, coupled with more complex race/class choices - like what Demise already has but taken further (was it 5 races, 12 classes? I forget).

D3 is extremely short, has level-scaling on top of that now and no persistant world (D1 and D2 had it, dungeons weren't re-regenerated on loading game except for multiplayer). Which leaves you with feeling of very generic game. Loot system also didn't went far from Sacred (where it was at worst, "Arsenic Armor" could be lv1 armor as well as lv200...).

I am waiting for Demise-like experience in ARPGs, but I am afraid we won't get that. Diablo 1 and 2 were cool because they were among first fluid graphical (!) "casual" roguelikes, and not because of their loot system (same Might and Magic III, non-Heroes, had much more solid and interesting loot system), which was quite bland. But they were very short even for rogue-likes of their time. Modern developers forget that content isn't measured in 10000s kills of same boss but in variety, diversity and length, coupled with solid game mechanics.

Oh, whoever enjoyed Demise, they will understand what I am talking about. Thus, most modern games become tiresome very fast. They are extremely short (under 20 hours of playthrough if you don't rush, multiple difficulty modes aren't not counted) or too generic (random items with completely random names from randomly placed mobs in random dungeons with random layouts and interior, exponentially subverted by level scaling) or combination of both. Sadly, nowadays interesting and elaborated game worlds are being done in MMOs exclusively.

[miffy23]

I agree with OP by adding one of the reasons: most of modern ARPGs (CRPGs in general too) never evolved (if only other way around). That's like someone said on other gameforum:

Far too many adhere to the simple structure set by early games of this type. For fusk sake people, this is 20-goddamn-11. Many games have 3D models with polygon counts exceeding the number of base items in most games of this genre. Pathetic. We should be having item systems like in the Fate series, coupled with more complex race/class choices - like what Demise already has but taken further (was it 5 races, 12 classes? I forget).

D3 is extremely short, has level-scaling on top of that now and no persistant world (D1 and D2 had it, dungeons weren't re-regenerated on loading game except for multiplayer). Which leaves you with feeling of very generic game. Loot system also didn't went far from Sacred (where it was at worst, "Arsenic Armor" could be lv1 armor as well as lv200...).

I am waiting for Demise-like experience in ARPGs, but I am afraid we won't get that. Diablo 1 and 2 were cool because they were among first fluid graphical (!) "casual" roguelikes, and not because of their loot system (same Might and Magic III, non-Heroes, had much more solid and interesting loot system), which was quite bland. But they were very short even for rogue-likes of their time. Modern developers forget that content isn't measured in 10000s kills of same boss but in variety, diversity and length, coupled with solid game mechanics.

Oh, whoever enjoyed Demise, they will understand what I am talking about. Thus, most modern games become tiresome very fast. They are extremely short (under 20 hours of playthrough if you don't rush, multiple difficulty modes aren't not counted) or too generic (random items with completely random names from randomly placed mobs in random dungeons with random layouts and interior, exponentially subverted by level scaling) or combination of both. Sadly, nowadays interesting and elaborated game worlds are being done in MMOs exclusively.

Then why is it still so much fun for me and literally millions of others?
The best games are simple at their core, and easy to get into. That's why they're popular.

[Kelimbror]

Ok, so I've always been a hardcore raider by all definitions of the word. I could sit in a raid for hours on end *snip* How do you make it feel "fun" by running the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again?

Likes doing the same thing over and over and over, asks others why they like doing a different thing over and over and over. What discussion are we having here? Take note that I'm not making light of your pursuit to 'figure out' how to enjoy the game, but I think you should just realize that you don't enjoy the game. Sometimes that's just the way it is.