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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but most of the people complaining here bring little to the table except "i'm bored yo" or revealing that they have little to no clue of what they're talking about (Shamans need more survivability? LOL? Healing talent tree has only one option for DPS? WAT?).

    It's fine to not like the way Shaman is right now, but then I'd put it to you that the class is simply not for you, in general. Shaman has remained largely unchanged except for details for years and years, and there are reasons for it. I myself find Shaman gameplay nearly perfect, and do not wish for any changes.

    Just because you want a different vision for the Shaman doesn't mean the class is inherently faulty or needs an overhaul. Far from it.

  2. #42
    Resto in particular is in a spot where it has significant issues with its mechanics and is probably overdue for a significant rework. The problem is that we are way too limited by raid positioning and the effectiveness of stacked AoE healing. We are basically at the mercy of either the encounter designers to actually design fights where Resto can shine (which wasn't the case for almost all of Firelands and ToT but was for all of DS) or we are at the mercy of numbers balance to overbuff the underlying numbers to the point it doesn't matter (which is the case on live in SoO). This was a problem in Ulduar, it was a problem in Firelands, and it was again a problem in ToT, and all of this is tied to the fact that our core mechanics have hardly changed since the start of Cata (and even from Wrath to Cata it was just the addition of Healing Rain). If you fail to reasonably balance a spec over 3 straight expansions because of the mechanics of that spec, it's probably time to go back to the drawing board and make some major changes.

    On top of that, our Mastery is a design failure that is just problematic/doesn't work. Even during the early Cata so called "triage healing model", it was widely considered a terrible stat. It's been near useless throughout MoP in PvE, because health pools just don't sit low enough to get enough value out of it, and because raid cooldowns have replaced actual healing through healing intensive phases. Not only that, the design of our mastery makes it inherently ridiculously strong in PvP and causes problems with PvE vs PvP spec balance. The biggest reason all of the band aid fixes for Resto have mostly been CH and HR buffs is because they aren't really used in PvP, and buffing anything else would buff PvP excessively. We need a new mastery - it's a failed experiment.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    You are all just being loud and ungrateful. We don't even have a single problem or quality life issues. Everything is so perfect, we never ever need a slightest change.
    Maybe except new icons.
    Ressurection CD 30 minutes.
    One big QoL issue which can be easiy fixed- reset upon wipe- would it be OP- YES, are shamans OP now ? NO.
    E

  4. #44
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The mechanics are stable because they're ridiculously simple. While nearly every caster has moved into a dual resource set up, Shaman are still utilizing WotLK mechanics. The issue isn't viability, the issue is design. Our talents are clunky and dull, and our mechanics are outdated.
    No class has very complicated mechanics, and even if some are harder than others, why do they all need to be of a certain level of difficulty? What's wrong with a fun, simple rotation? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Some classes are simpler than others but the goal is to maintain their fun. Shaman, especially elemental, does that very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    For example, the fact that Enhance can't use 2h weapons, when every other Melee hybrid can use both 2h and DW without a problem.
    Because not every class needs to be the same. Homogenisation is not always a positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why are totems still on their vanilla based elemental lockout?
    What's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why are shocks still on a shared CD?
    Because splitting them removes the only, what one might call "more complex" aspects of a shaman's (mostly elemental) rotation. The elemental shock rotation is pretty much the only stepping stone to distinguish between a good elemental shaman and a great one. Keeping the shocks tied to a shared cooldown is a design mechanic that certainly has its place in making the rotation what it is. There's nothing wrong with it, which is why it hasn't changed - it doesn't need to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    These are problems that a revamp could address and make the class better. For example, you think Enhance is fun now? Imagine Enhance with modern class mechanics, and Blizzard's experience with Death Knights and Monks directing the spec into a more focused hybrid Melee design.
    First of all, "problems" is an opinion. I don't see any of the above as problems and don't believe they need any fixing. Enhance fits surprisingly well into their "easy to play, hard to master" class design philosophy. I'm notoriously bad at melee classes, but I'm actually enjoying playing rogue right now - which has more simple mechanics than enhancement. Which baffles me as to why you say the mechanics are simple, but then go on to say making them more complex would be a good thing. Complexion does not have a direct correlation with enjoyability.
    Last edited by mmocc85087d34c; 2014-06-03 at 12:40 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Shaman has remained largely unchanged except for details for years and years, and there are reasons for it. I myself find Shaman gameplay nearly perfect.
    And those reasons are?

    And besides just because you find the Shaman ''perfect'' does not mean others who also enjoy the Shaman class should. I find myself looking at some of the changes the other classes recieve and think ''nice change'' and then I look at the Shaman and maybe, maybe see one update if there even is one. I just want the Shaman class join 2014 with the other classes...

    No matter how you look at it. Compared with the other classes Shaman is outdated and it does need updating. Probably not as much as some people claim. Atleast some major QoL improvements regarding L45 talents en the totem system.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Segasik View Post
    Ressurection CD 30 minutes.
    One big QoL issue which can be easiy fixed- reset upon wipe- would it be OP- YES, are shamans OP now ? NO.
    E
    I don't know that resetting the Reincarnation cooldown on a boss wipe would be that OP. I mean, they set it to reset on every Ra-Den wipe, and it wasn't like it was overpowered or like the "optimal way" to DPS was to die on purpose/sacrifice dagger and get a second heroism.

    If they don't want to do that, they should at least reduce the cooldown to 15-20 minutes. There used to be a talent that allowed you to do that, and that wasn't overpowered. In fact, most people didn't even take the talent at the time. I would far rather a cooldown reduction than ankhing at higher HP.

  7. #47
    The only change I want to see is making the weapon enhancements on the player and not on the weapons and allowing shamans to use two handers again. I miss that from Vanilla.

    Kinda like a hybrid system similar to what Fury warriors have with titans grip and SMF.

  8. #48
    I enjoy playing my Shaman more in Hearthstone than in WoW and I've played one since BC. I love lightning themed classes.

    Got some good mileage out of Elemental over the years, but I'll admit, I'm one of those crybabies that is sad to see Lightning while moving go. I just like to run-and-gun.

    Want to play Enhance, but can't stand the whack-a-mole rotation. Hoping for a boomkin-style-revamp here. Sorry.

  9. #49
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    What Shaman need is mostly quality of life issues to be fixed, which is what we've been asking for for years. We're not getting an overhaul? That's fine, but can you fix everything that's wrong with the class in its current state without attempting to band-aid fix things that end up making it worse, or require more band-aids?

    It's not surprising that Warriors don't have many changes, they're as simple as Rogues and Hunters so they sohuld be lucky they have their tanking spec to differentiate the specs properly. At least with Shaman, there's a larger difference.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    When did you start playing?
    Vanilla.

    and totems, while retaining the elemental lockout (as they should), are very different now as they were before, even relatively recently "before". Hell you guys have gotten massive changes between the tbc and cata stages.

    As much as some other classes? nope. But no where close to "least changed class". That would be rogues.

    I don't see shamans as needing an overhaul, but most definitely some competitive tweaking for all 3 specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    I play enh and totems are either fringe or maybe act as raid cool down but most( nearly always) I put totems way they did before change the same goes for resto. The big change is they are less bang for your buck. As for rotation changes I would love to have you show them to me.

    When did you start playing?
    Were the following abilities in classic wow..Fan of knives cloak of shadows? When did rogues learn how to use axes?Or what about poisons?
    Spam combo generater, use combo at 5 cp. use CD's when they reset. rinse repeat ad nauseam for all expansions. The things you mention haven't "changed" rogues. Shamans have MUCH bigger examples of drastic change since vanilla. Poisons are the same now as they were before. You put the damager for pve and the wound/crip (or not) for pvp.
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2014-06-03 at 01:45 PM.

  11. #51
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    Yet it's always low on the dps. Fun doesn't kill bosses and wiping is not fun. Also having to be gcd locked with so many Cd's on the gcd is oh so much fun, amirite?

    He said he does not care what his dps is so long as it is higher than other Elemental shaman. Or in other words I do not care if I am a midget, as long I am the tallest midget.
    Where you getting your numbers from? From the top .1% of raiders who preform at a level you will NEVER, EVER be able to preform with ANY class whatsoever?

    Blizzard has repeatedly said, over, and over again, that all class/specs are balanced, dps wise, withing a 5% delta at the most. They do NOT balance around top .1% preformers! There not been a SINGLE fight this expansion where X spec was NOT brought during heroic progression. Heck, I haven't even seen class stacking that was around during Cata. Why? Because the top raiders have realized that blizzard has so balanced the specs that they can bring almost whatever they please and still meet enrage timers!. If you run into enrage issues, its not because of what classes you are bringing, its because of the players in the raid are underpreforming at their gear level. The only time that there has been any situation in which one class/spec was prefered over others was not because of the dps, but because of the utility the class/spec provided, such as warlocks/DKs for H Shen, Mages during early H Will, ect.

    Anyway, a "sweeping revamp/chage set" does not guarantee that Shamans will be "gud dps". Heck, things can remain as is, and shamans could end up being 20% above everyone else! Its not the way rotations work, its how the numbers get balanced that determines dps in the end. (And the strengths of classes. Destro Locks baneing havocs onto Garrosh, ect tends to get higher numbers)


    As for Highlights/Revamps, taking a look at WoWhead class highlights isn't quite the most suitable source. ATM, Rogues/Hunters were the most in need of changes to specs in terms of rotations, as all 3 specs felt very similar. Elemental is different from Enhance, so why would blizzard make large sweeping rotational changes? For Elemental, a change is that Earthquake will finally be worth using in an AoE situation. For Enhance, the main change is merging damage sources so that weapon damage sources are more spread out. Enhancement is the only spec left that is cooldown-driven rather then resource driven.

    As for changes, I would say the MoP-totem change was pretty significant. It made totems go from being passive, ignorable buffs/debuffs, to being fairly decent cooldowns that you couldn't ignore in PvP, and were very nice in PvE. (HST helps smooth out rocky phases when you don't have HTT/Ancestral Guidance up).
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  12. #52
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    No class has very complicated mechanics, and even if some are harder than others, why do they all need to be of a certain level of difficulty? What's wrong with a fun, simple rotation? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Some classes are simpler than others but the goal is to maintain their fun. Shaman, especially elemental, does that very well.
    Again, "fun" is subjective. I found Elemental's rotation "fun" in WotLK. I found it somewhat "fun" in Cataclysm. By MoP I started getting tired of the rotation because for the most part it hadn't changed much. The idea that we're going to be doing this rotation AGAIN in WoD isn't "fun" to me anymore. Especially since the rotation is actually going to experience a retrograde from the loss of LB on the move.

    In short, Elemental is simple and fun. My issue with it is that the playstyle hasn't significantly changed in over 3 expansions. The last major change was Fulmination in Cataclysm, and that amounted to hitting Earth Shock after shooting LBs several times.

    While you could argue that some classes are simpler (I'd love for you to point them out), those classes have experience significant change since Cataclysm. The other two hybrid casters Spriests and Balance have both experienced significant upgrades in their gameplay since 2010. Death Knights have undergone significant changes since Cataclysm. WW Monks and DKs make Enhancement look like dinosaurs.


    Because not every class needs to be the same. Homogenisation is not always a positive.
    Monks and DKs both have specs that can use DW and 2H equally. Those classes are nothing alike. Allowing Enhancement to also be able to swap between 2h and DW wouldn't make Enhance anything like those other classes. Please stop making excuses for crap design.


    What's wrong with that?
    Because those lockouts were in place to stop Shaman from stacking auras. Totems no longer have auras on them, thus the lockouts no longer serve any purpose in modern WoW.

    Because splitting them removes the only, what one might call "more complex" aspects of a shaman's (mostly elemental) rotation. The elemental shock rotation is pretty much the only stepping stone to distinguish between a good elemental shaman and a great one. Keeping the shocks tied to a shared cooldown is a design mechanic that certainly has its place in making the rotation what it is. There's nothing wrong with it, which is why it hasn't changed - it doesn't need to be changed.
    Nonsense. Shocks have the shared lockout because the class is simplistic in its current form and Blizzard has no desire to modernize the class. Like the Totem elemental lockout, the Shock shared CD is a hold over from Vanilla when it would have been OP for a caster class to be able to cast 3 instant spells consecutively. However, in modern WoW, that issue is no longer a problem. Shaman should be redesigned to match the current game.

    First of all, "problems" is an opinion. I don't see any of the above as problems and don't believe they need any fixing.
    You don't see a problem with SBT and EGT (two totems on two different talent tiers) working against each other? You don't see a problem with Fulmination, Maelstrom Weapon, and Tidal Waves not benefiting from the talent system at all? You don't see a problem with level 100 talents that offer nothing except an added effect to our existing spells? And btw, that's just the talent system.

    Enhance fits surprisingly well into their "easy to play, hard to master" class design philosophy. I'm notoriously bad at melee classes, but I'm actually enjoying playing rogue right now - which has more simple mechanics than enhancement. Which baffles me as to why you say the mechanics are simple, but then go on to say making them more complex would be a good thing. Complexion does not have a direct correlation with enjoyability.
    Enhance amounts to waiting for individual abilities to come off of cooldown to use. Its the very definition of whack-a-mole gameplay. Ironically, DKs were similar in their earlier iterations, but Blizzard fixed them by virtue of their secondary resource system, the Death Rune mechanic, and their talents. Enhance never received that level of change, so we're still playing whack-a-mole. I won't even get into Monk gameplay.

    It's important to note that Rogues will be receiving a major upgrade next expansion; Their combo point system now travels with them instead of being on the target they're fighting, thus making it a true resource system. This will change Rogue gameplay completely.

    Enhance? Well at least Healing Storm won't be a glyph anymore.....
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-06-03 at 03:31 PM.

  13. #53
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, "fun" is subjective. I found Elemental's rotation "fun" in WotLK. I found it somewhat "fun" in Cataclysm. By MoP I started getting tired of the rotation because for the most part it hadn't changed much. The idea that we're going to be doing this rotation AGAIN in WoD isn't "fun" to me anymore.
    So why are you still playing it? O_o If you don't enjoy a class then there are plenty more to pick from. People have been rerolling mains for that reason since 2004.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Especially since the rotation is actually going to experience a retrograde from the loss of LB on the move.
    That's happening to every class except hunter, since that's their niche now. You can't really use that as an argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In short, Elemental is simple and fun. My issue with it is that the playstyle hasn't significantly changed in over 3 expansions. The last major change was Fulmination in Cataclysm, and that amounted to hitting Earth Shock after shooting LBs several times.
    Again, because there's nothing wrong with it. The reason other classes and specs changed over the years is because there was something wrong with them and they needed to be changed. Elemental is in a great position mechanically, and as you just said, it is simple and fun. If you want to mix it up a bit then you'd be better off switching to a new class rather than asking for the one you play to be changed. The chances are you'll find something much more suited to your tastes nowadays in a different class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    While you could argue that some classes are simpler (I'd love for you to point them out)
    I... never said that...? I said "No class has very complicated mechanics, and even if some are harder than others.... <etc>".

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The other two hybrid casters Spriests and Balance have both experienced significant upgrades in their gameplay since 2010. Death Knights have undergone significant changes since Cataclysm. WW Monks and DKs make Enhancement look like dinosaurs.
    As above, those classes all had issues. Death Knights didn't even have a designated tanking spec back in the day - that's not really comparable. Enhancement is like a clunkier version of Ret Paladin, but it's a complicated spec with a lot of buttons - it's like that for a reason - it's supposed to be quite complicated. If you don't like that then I know rogue, for example, is a nice simple spec to play and is comparable to an elemental shaman in difficulty. Windwalker also flows very well and also has fewer core rotational buttons. Moral of the story: Different specs have different difficulties, that's how it's supposed to be, we don't want every spec feeling the same and having the same level of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Monks and DKs both have specs that can use DW and 2H equally. Those classes are nothing alike. Allowing Enhancement to also be able to swap between 2h and DW wouldn't make Enhance anything like those other classes. Please stop making excuses for crap design.
    2H did exist back in the day and I see a lot of people asking for it back. I don't really know the reason it was removed in the first place but they don't just remove things like that "just 'cause" - there will be a reason for it, and I'd suggest tweeting one of the devs to find out why if you're interested in why it isn't coming back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because those lockouts were in place to stop Shaman from stacking auras. Totems no longer have auras on them, thus the lockouts no longer serve any purpose in modern WoW.
    You think it unrealistic to believe that there may be evolved reasons for that? Tell me, what would change if they removed this. You might answer your own question in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nonsense. Shocks have the shared lockout because the class is simplistic in its current form and Blizzard has no desire to modernize the class.
    Modernise != better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Like the Totem elemental lockout, the Shock shared CD is a hold over from Vanilla when it would have been OP for a caster class to be able to cast 3 instant spells consecutively. However, in modern WoW, that issue is no longer a problem. Shaman should be redesigned to match the current game.
    It is a problem when you don't have to think about when you use a shock in your PvE rotation. That makes the class even simpler than it already is. And you don't want that, do you? Is there a shocking twist here somewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't see a problem with SBT and EGT (two totems on two different talent tiers) working against each other?
    No? You can take both of those and use them both, just not at the same time. And for the record, I already know Blizzard don't see a problem with this either. When I get home from work I can find you a tweet regarding the rogue talents: The level 45 talent Leeching Poison and the level 75 talent Paralytic Poison are both non-lethal poisons that you literally cannot use together - you must lose one to apply the other. Their response to this was along the lines of "We don't mind there being the occasional conflict in talent choices". I'll dig that out when I get home. But the bottom line is that is not a design flaw, nor a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't see a problem with Fulmination, Maelstrom Weapon, and Tidal Waves not benefiting from the talent system at all?
    Again - No? Is there a mandatory design for every ability to benefit from a talent somewhere? I'm pretty sure most, if not all classes have core abilities that aren't affected or modified by the talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't see a problem with level 100 talents that offer nothing except an added effect to our existing spells? And btw, that's just the talent system.
    You literally just said "These spells are not affected by any talents" and then "Level 100 talents only affect existing spells - OUTRAGEOUS MUCH!?" What would you prefer them to do instead? Add another core rotational ability? We got that from the level 90 talents unless you specced Primal Elementalist (and for Enhancement you will, but that's an issue with them being too strong for Enhancement - it's not a design flaw, it's a tuning issue). The choice of complicating or simplifying your rotation is there if you want it. In an ideal world they'd all do roughly the same damage and what you picked would be based solely on how you wanted to change up your rotation. Better tuning will accomplish this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Enhance amounts to waiting for individual abilities to come off of cooldown to use. Its the very definition of whack-a-mole gameplay. Ironically, DKs were similar in their earlier iterations, but Blizzard fixed them by virtue of their secondary resource system, the Death Rune mechanic, and their talents. Enhance never received that level of change, so we're still playing whack-a-mole. I won't even get into Monk gameplay.
    Again, I said this earlier - homogenisation is not a positive. The arcade can replace their whack-a-mole machine with space invaders, but there'll be people who still want to play whack-a-mole. Or, instead of replacing it, they can have both. If you want to play whack-a-mole (Enhance shaman) you can, if you want to play space invaders (DK/WW Monk) you can. It's dangerous to assume that just because one class changed, all the others should, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's important to note that Rogues will be receiving a major upgrade next expansion; Their combo point system now travels with them instead of being on the target they're fighting, thus making it a true resource system. This will change Rogue gameplay completely.
    That really is nothing more than a quality of life issue. It was very annoying to have your combo points just get lost all the time. Surprisingly, the gameplay will actually not change in the slightest, the only difference this will make is that we won't have to spam glyphed Redirect on multi-target fights any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Enhance? Well at least Healing Storm won't be a glyph anymore.....
    *whack whack*

    Edit: Well...... this is longer than I was expecting.
    Last edited by mmocc85087d34c; 2014-06-03 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    WW Monks and DKs make Enhancement look like dinosaurs.

    Monks and DKs both have specs that can use DW and 2H equally. Those classes are nothing alike. Allowing Enhancement to also be able to swap between 2h and DW wouldn't make Enhance anything like those other classes. Please stop making excuses for crap design.
    In what way, precisely, do WW and DKs (specifically Frost and/or Unholy) make Enhancment look outdated?

    Also, why must every (hybrid?) melee spec/class have both DW and 2H playstyles? To the point, why should Enha have a viable 2H spec?
    What's wrong with JUST having one style? Stating that "every other hybrid melee class has both DW and 2H, so Enha should have it too" does NOT make a valid point as to why should Enhance have it as well.

    Not allowing every spec and class to have the same options as their "counterparts" is NOT bad design, at least from my view. And we`re not talking about homogenisation here, since as you stated the specs are nothing a like in terms of gameplay.
    Last edited by Razhiel; 2014-06-03 at 04:18 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razhiel View Post
    In what way, precisely, do WW and DKs (specifically Frost and/or Unholy) make Enhancment look outdated?

    Also, why must every (hybrid?) melee spec/class have both DW and 2H playstyles? To the point, why should Enha have a viable 2H spec?
    What's wrong with JUST having one style? Stating that "every other hybrid melee class has both DW and 2H, so Enha should have it too" does NOT make a valid point as to why should Enhance have it as well.

    Not allowing every spec and class to have the same options as their "counterparts" is NOT bad design, at least from my view. And we`re not talking about homogenisation here, since as you stated the specs are nothing a like in terms of gameplay.
    Just to point out, the only hybrid class like ours is really Druid, because Shaman and Druids are the only classes in the game to have both a melee and a ranged spec, and low and behold melee druids can't duel wield, just like enhance can't work with 2hds.

  16. #56
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    So why are you still playing it? O_o If you don't enjoy a class then there are plenty more to pick from. People have been rerolling mains for that reason since 2004.
    I mained Shaman since vanilla. I grew tired of their treatment, so I mained a Monk in MoP. Shaman was reduced to an alt in MoP. I'm currently leveling him to 90.

    That's happening to every class except hunter, since that's their niche now. You can't really use that as an argument here.
    Actually I can, since the other classes are getting significant changes to compensate. Shaman are losing LB on the move and are pretty much remaining the same.


    Again, because there's nothing wrong with it. The reason other classes and specs changed over the years is because there was something wrong with them and they needed to be changed. Elemental is in a great position mechanically, and as you just said, it is simple and fun. If you want to mix it up a bit then you'd be better off switching to a new class rather than asking for the one you play to be changed. The chances are you'll find something much more suited to your tastes nowadays in a different class.
    So Shaman were perfect in WotLK/Cataclysm and require no change while every other class was significantly flawed and required change?

    You don't really believe that do you?


    I... never said that...? I said "No class has very complicated mechanics, and even if some are harder than others.... <etc>".
    So do you believe that Shaman are the most simple class?


    As above, those classes all had issues. Death Knights didn't even have a designated tanking spec back in the day - that's not really comparable. Enhancement is like a clunkier version of Ret Paladin, but it's a complicated spec with a lot of buttons - it's like that for a reason - it's supposed to be quite complicated. If you don't like that then I know rogue, for example, is a nice simple spec to play and is comparable to an elemental shaman in difficulty. Windwalker also flows very well and also has fewer core rotational buttons. Moral of the story: Different specs have different difficulties, that's how it's supposed to be, we don't want every spec feeling the same and having the same level of difficulty.
    Its important to note that Retribution (and Paladins in general) have also significantly changed since WotLK. Again, do you believe that Shaman are perfect and all other classes required change?


    You think it unrealistic to believe that there may be evolved reasons for that? Tell me, what would change if they removed this. You might answer your own question in the process.
    It would go a long way towards making the class less clunky, and move our class' gameplay in a more positive direction. Now please tell me how it benefits Shaman to maintain those lockouts.


    It is a problem when you don't have to think about when you use a shock in your PvE rotation. That makes the class even simpler than it already is. And you don't want that, do you? Is there a shocking twist here somewhere?
    That would be only the case if the class isn't completely revamped along with that change. Again, the shock and totem limits are only in place to give the class an illusion of depth. In reality those limits are clunky design holdovers that serve no legitimate purpose in the modern game.


    No? You can take both of those and use them both, just not at the same time. And for the record, I already know Blizzard don't see a problem with this either. When I get home from work I can find you a tweet regarding the rogue talents: The level 45 talent Leeching Poison and the level 75 talent Paralytic Poison are both non-lethal poisons that you literally cannot use together - you must lose one to apply the other. Their response to this was along the lines of "We don't mind there being the occasional conflict in talent choices". I'll dig that out when I get home. But the bottom line is that is not a design flaw, nor a problem.
    Its important to note that Paralytic poison is being removed from Rogue talents in WoD, so that conflict will no longer exist.

    Shaman? EGT and SBT still conflict with each other.


    Again - No? Is there a mandatory design for every ability to benefit from a talent somewhere? I'm pretty sure most, if not all classes have core abilities that aren't affected or modified by the talents.
    Name them.


    You literally just said "These spells are not affected by any talents" and then "Level 100 talents only affect existing spells - OUTRAGEOUS MUCH!?"
    Fulmination, MSW, and Tidal Waves aren't spells, they are secondary systems that aren't true resources, like the Druid Eclipse system, and the Monk Brew system. Guess what? Druids and Monks both have talents that benefit Brews and the Eclipse system.

    What would you prefer them to do instead? Add another core rotational ability? We got that from the level 90 talents unless you specced Primal Elementalist (and for Enhancement you will, but that's an issue with them being too strong for Enhancement - it's not a design flaw, it's a tuning issue). The choice of complicating or simplifying your rotation is there if you want it. In an ideal world they'd all do roughly the same damage and what you picked would be based solely on how you wanted to change up your rotation. Better tuning will accomplish this.
    Howabout using some actual imagination? That would be a start. I would like to at least see the level of creativity and boldness I'm seeing emerge in other specs.

    BTW, why no talents pulled from all the Dark Shaman we fought in SoO? Why no new talents from the Thunder King raid boss?

    Again, I said this earlier - homogenisation is not a positive. The arcade can replace their whack-a-mole machine with space invaders, but there'll be people who still want to play whack-a-mole. Or, instead of replacing it, they can have both. If you want to play whack-a-mole (Enhance shaman) you can, if you want to play space invaders (DK/WW Monk) you can. It's dangerous to assume that just because one class changed, all the others should, too.
    I could accept that argument if only a few classes changed. The reality is that every class is getting significant changes except for Shaman.

    That really is nothing more than a quality of life issue. It was very annoying to have your combo points just get lost all the time. Surprisingly, the gameplay will actually not change in the slightest, the only difference this will make is that we won't have to spam glyphed Redirect on multi-target fights any more.
    Really? I thought you played a Rogue. Currently as a Rogue you need to build CPs as quickly as possible on a target in order to perform finishing moves. Imagine now what it will be like to get 3 CPs and a target dies. You now have 3 CPs stored to do what ever you want. You can heal yourself with Recuperate, or save your CPs to open up with a powerful finisher. Its a pretty major change to Rogue gameplay.

    It would be nice if Shaman got a similar significant change. I guess losing LB on the move was a significant change in the opposite direction...

  17. #57
    I'm not going to argue with the emotional spleen-venting folks, who want Blizz to change a spec, based on that poster's individual desires. There's no logic with those folks.

    That being said, I've probably seen more spot-on, excellent posts in this thread, than I can remember, in a single thread.

    As for me, I've played enhancement PvE, since early BC, and I can attest that the spec has undergone continual change, in that time. Overall, I still love the spec, and don't believe it needs major overhaul. To me, the notion of major overhaul being necessitated by a function of time is absurd. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The spec is fun, pure and simple. It works well. For anyone who thinks enhancement performs poorly in PvE dps, then the problem is you. L2 Play.

    Tiberria, I agree with your assessment of resto. I think your last post in this tread was excellent, and pretty much sums up the state of resto shaman. I think that Blizz is, as well, and I'm generally positive that they're on the right track. Time will tell.

  18. #58
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razhiel View Post
    In what way, precisely, do WW and DKs (specifically Frost and/or Unholy) make Enhancment look outdated?
    Both can utilize 2H and DW, both have dual resource systems, both have better integrated talents, both combine short CDs with active abilities.

    Also, why must every (hybrid?) melee spec/class have both DW and 2H playstyles? To the point, why should Enha have a viable 2H spec?
    What's wrong with JUST having one style? Stating that "every other hybrid melee class has both DW and 2H, so Enha should have it too" does NOT make a valid point as to why should Enhance have it as well.
    Enhance should have it as well because they can already equip 2h weapons. They could also historically use those weapons in past iterations. Their excuse for removing this ability was that it was hard to balance. However, DKs and Monks balance this just fine.

    The fact that Enhance can equip weapons they can't use is clunky design.

    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Both can utilize 2H and DW, both have dual resource systems, both have better integrated talents, both combine short CDs with active abilities.

    Enhance should have it as well because they can already equip 2h weapons. They could also historically use those weapons in past iterations. Their excuse for removing this ability was that it was hard to balance. However, DKs and Monks balance this just fine.

    The fact that Enhance can equip weapons they can't use is clunky design.
    The answer to this should really be remove the weapon specializations they will never use, not redesign the class in such a way to allow for them to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.
    I think the reason they don't is because they are ranged specs. Also, lore wise Shaman are not particularly recognised for using shields, but rather charging into battle with the power of the elements, smashing their foes with empowered strikes. Unlike the stereotypical tanks (sword and board warrior) or Paladins in their stereotypical all gold and white plate armor, we don't really have any affiliation with shields. I think the only reason we can even use them is because Paladins can, and originally we were meant to be the Horde version of Paladins, so could do most of the things paladins could do but in reverse (auras vs totems, offensive dispel vs defensive dispel)

  20. #60
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.
    The reasons because they don't have shield-required abilities are many. But among them, this is prevalent: unlike the other shield-bearing classes (paladins and warriors), the shaman can use other off-handed items like lanterns, books, cricket cages, etc, which, if they had shield-required abilities, would make those abilities unusable, forcing the class to wield only shields, greatly limiting their choices of gear.

    Also, they have enough defensive cooldowns as it is, already.

    (PS: I know holy paladins can also wield shields as well as other off-hand items, but, at the same time, they have no shield-required abilities in their arsenal.)
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-06-03 at 05:39 PM.
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