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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    If a class is not changed a lot then that means it's doing pretty well. I love my elemental shaman and I could play this spec until the end of time. So the no changes is a good thing.
    Elemental shaman do NOT do well in PVE. The lack of shaman attention is not because the class is doing pretty well. I get that not every class has all specs balanced fairly well, but when it comes to shaman, they have the largest disparity across specs. Historically, one shaman spec or another has always been at the bottom of the totem pole.

    People make good posts about much needed shaman improvements, and they go ignored. So people get frustrated and start raging on the forums... then Blizzard gives some attention, but usually in the form of "locking thread because it is not constructive." After years of enhancement SUCKING, they finally fixed that MoP, but then made elemental suck bawls.

    Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Someone's clearly forgotten when Shaman got regular tweeks and buffs throughout Cataclysm. Remember when Chain Lightning had a cooldown?

    Shaman have received plenty of love.
    Yes to chain lightning removal, but don't forget that every time Blizzard gives a little something to Shaman, other classes usually get two-fold at the same time. It doesn't change the fact that one shaman spec is always at the bottom. Restoration has probably been the most consistent spec across all expansions.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    That happens with pretty much every class in at least a few specs.

    Warriors get exponentially better as they gain more crit, so as they reach later tiers, their DPS skyrockets compared to their mediocre-at-best early tier DPS.
    Fire mages in the same boat, more crit = exponentially more DPS.

    Some classes just need more gear to be better than others. It's how the game works.

    its not about gear if they must buff shamanism few times in single exp that's NOT gear problem or buff few times healing rain remember tot was raiding hc adn resto got buffed CH , HR ,earth living weapon .

  3. #83
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zedman View Post
    Elemental shaman do NOT do well in PVE. The lack of shaman attention is not because the class is doing pretty well. I get that not every class has all specs balanced fairly well, but when it comes to shaman, they have the largest disparity across specs. Historically, one shaman spec or another has always been at the bottom of the totem pole.

    People make good posts about much needed shaman improvements, and they go ignored. So people get frustrated and start raging on the forums... then Blizzard gives some attention, but usually in the form of "locking thread because it is not constructive." After years of enhancement SUCKING, they finally fixed that MoP, but then made elemental suck bawls.

    Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class?"
    That is a numbers issue though. Being low on raidbots =/= equal a bad class. If you assume the data on there is right, then it just means that we need a numbers change, not a class overhaul.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    its not about gear if they must buff shamanism few times in single exp that's NOT gear problem or buff few times healing rain remember tot was raiding hc adn resto got buffed CH , HR ,earth living weapon .
    Its a scaling issue. Shamanism effected how heavily we scaled, we weren't scaling well enough, so they buffed it to make us scale better. Warriors have been notorious in how well they scale. If you nerfed their numbers into oblivion but kept every ability doing the same damage relative to every other one (so their rotation didn't change) you wouldn't change the class at all, but you would make them be crap. The way our numbers worked meant that we didn't scale well (Crit didn't do enough for us, Haste wasn't strong enough to make up for it).
    Last edited by mmoc63fa3da953; 2014-06-03 at 08:20 PM.

  4. #84
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    I play elemental (or did, stopped before Orgrimmar raid. might come back for WoD), and I'm not quite sure what it is that we would really need now. Maybe a buff to Earthquake to make it more usable, but that isn't major at all. What kind of changes did you want to see?

  5. #85
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    You're just moving the bar now. Before you said 'No changes since Wrath', so I point out changes since Wrath and now you say 'No changes since cataclysm'. It seems to me you are just trying to deliberately make the issue seem worse than it is.
    I said "significant change". Fulmination amounts to a procc that boosts the damage of Earth Shock. I don't consider that a significant change. However instead of arguing that, I simply moved the argument to more fertile ground. The title of the thread is the lack of changes within the class. Its quite apparent that some feel that no change is okay, while others feel that the lack of change compared to other classes is a problem.

    So they had issues and they got fixed, but those changes somehow don't count? Why is a complete overhaul needed? Just because? You say everything 'needs' to change, but why? It literally seems to me that it you think it needs to change just because it hasn't changed, which makes little to no sense to me. They have made changes to improve the class where it needs it, and I am in no way saying it is perfect, but change for changes sake is not always a good thing.
    Fixing an issue isn't a significant change or revamp, its fixing the mess you created. Why is a complete overhaul needed? Because many Shaman mechanics haven't been changed since Vanilla, while others are simply leftover design holes that Blizzard never fixed or addressed (2H Enhance).

    Its not change for changes sake. Its change so that the Shaman class can match their peers.

    So they removed some abilities and added more. If you break down every rework ever, that is what it comes down too. They removed stuff and added more stuff. You are just moving the bar all the time to purposely make it look bad when it really isn't. In Wrath you basically had no choice about your totems. They even gave us a spell that let you drop all 4 at once, so you literally forgot they existed for the next 5 minutes, except for when you used Fire Elemental (also every 5 minutes). Minus fire elemental, totems were completely uninteractive.

    Actually majority of current totems are the same totems we had in Cataclysm. We had Tremor Totem, Grounding Totem, Searing Totem, Healing Stream Totem, Stone Claw Totem, Mana Tide Totem, SLT, etc. So how are they any less interactive then than they are now?


    Now (minus Searing Totem and HST) every single one of them is a niche spell, only used in certain situations, that require you to make a concious choice to use, and that you need to prepare yourself before you use (Fire Elemental lined up with other cooldowns for example - this being the only one that works how it used too though). That seems like a major change to me.
    Um, they did the exact same thing in Cataclysm and even WotLk. If I had a Mage bearing down on me, I still dropped Grounding Totem. If I needed a shield, I used glyphed Stone Claw Totem. If I needed to stop a fear I dropped Tremor totem. The only thing that massive totem revamp did was take away buff totems, and forced us to use 4 GCDs as opposed to 1 GCD since they removed the Shaman ability that allowed us to summon 4 totems at once.

    All the dumb totem limits that existed then still exist now.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    That is a numbers issue though. Being low on raidbots =/= equal a bad class. If you assume the data on there is right, then it just means that we need a numbers change, not a class overhaul.
    BUT WE dont even get NORMAL numbers changes, problem is there shamans dont get any attention and problems pile up until we need shamanism buff to fix problem until next shamanism buff.

    and when they buff us they buff us 1/4 of needed amount

  7. #87
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zedman View Post
    Elemental shaman do NOT do well in PVE. The lack of shaman attention is not because the class is doing pretty well. I get that not every class has all specs balanced fairly well, but when it comes to shaman, they have the largest disparity across specs. Historically, one shaman spec or another has always been at the bottom of the totem pole.

    People make good posts about much needed shaman improvements, and they go ignored. So people get frustrated and start raging on the forums... then Blizzard gives some attention, but usually in the form of "locking thread because it is not constructive." After years of enhancement SUCKING, they finally fixed that MoP, but then made elemental suck bawls.

    Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class?"
    I'm going to edit that post ¬_¬

    As I already said like 4 posts ago (granted, you won't have read the whole thread) by "doing pretty well" I meant the mechanics. You're clearly talking about numbers, and I'm not. Although even then, my numbers are pretty good on most fights and exceptional on the odd few, so I don't think elemental sucks. But as I said, perhaps I'm just better than most, I don't know.

    Anyway, I'd recommend reading the rest of the thread, as most things have already been mindlessly argued about by now.

  8. #88
    Herald of the Titans Darksoldierr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    How about you list us all the changes that don't count as changes so we know what to avoid in conversation with you?

    From BC to now, you've added Unleashed Elements, Lava Lash, Wolves and Lightning Bolt for single target along with Chain Lightning and Fire Nova as an actual spell instead of a cooldown totem to your repertoire of spells. Compare that to drop searing totem and hit Stormstrike on cooldown, and you've got yourself quite a different class.

    It's like saying Frost Mage is the same as it always was because you still cast Frostbolt. I mean, yeah if you ignore all the procs, added spells, new cooldowns, and the fact that the entire fucking rotation is different, then every class is the exact same as it was back then. Shamans have had so much added to them since BC and you're just saying "Oh but ignore all the changes because they don't count because they don't agree with my argument."

    Shamans don't play the same at all as they did back in BC. It's completely remade.
    No. Adding spells to cast like shocks (with 5/5 mealstorm) and few buffer abilities (lava lash, unleash and nova) doesn't COMPLETELY changes the class. It refines the class, but the fundamental is the same. Yes theres some trickery with using lb/eb with non 5/5 MW, but other than that, you stand behind the boss, and use instant spells on your target all day.
    Hell, you don't even have to totem dance anymore

    The class is definitely changed, but COMPLETELY doesn't mean what you think it means
    Warlocks, Rets, Boomkins? They COMPLETELY changed but enhance?
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    That's because they screwed up in the numbers, and they fixed it. One time in a single expansion =/= shamans are always weak at the start of the expansion.
    remenber resto @ t11 they were unusable in middle of tier they hotfixed and added spiritlink, T14 shamans were garbage too

    and they screew nummbers for shamans on every exp start

  10. #90
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    but other than that, you stand behind the boss, and use instant spells on your target all day.
    I'm pretty sure every melee class in the game does that >.> Warrior's Slam had a cast time and that got removed because it was terrible.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    I have no doubt that some people find the classic nature of Shaman gameplay to be "fun", but its important to note that other classes are getting changed and revamped constantly while Shaman gameplay is stuck in neutral. For example, the fact that Enhance can't use 2h weapons, when every other Melee hybrid can use both 2h and DW without a problem. Why are totems still on their vanilla based elemental lockout? Why are shocks still on a shared CD?
    .
    Just wanted to point out only hybrids that dual/2h in a single spec are death knights and monks. Warriors either 2h in arms or dual in fury, Druids only 2h, paladin 2h. That said, 2h enhancement might actually cause me to dust off my 2 shamans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  12. #92
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The changes to Balance and Shadow literally made me stop playing those classes entirely, and I mained a balance druid for a significant period of time with a priest alt for fun. They're clunky changes made purely for the sake of changing the class and personally, I'd prefer if they didn't get changed at all because the changes were the stupidest, unnecessary changes I'd ever seen.
    Then you should be happy. Both are getting changed (again) in WoD.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post


    They screw up numbers for everyone on every expansion start, that's why numbers changes are extremely common for EVERYONE at the start of EVERY expansion.

    T11 left Shaman as the only healing class without a major healing cooldown. They thought that would be ok. They were wrong, they righted said wrong. That's not screwing them up, that's called making a mistake.

    Shaman have also been the strongest healers available in many tiers. It was actually a detriment to not have a resto shaman in DS if I remember correctly.
    thats the problem in first tier none of classes are so broken as shaman as of ds only for spine shaman was neede because of overtunned fight, shaman was good in ds because they buffed HR again and abuse of lightning bolt spam mana regen

  14. #94
    Deleted
    ***alpha***

  15. #95
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I said "significant change". Fulmination amounts to a procc that boosts the damage of Earth Shock. I don't consider that a significant change. However instead of arguing that, I simply moved the argument to more fertile ground. The title of the thread is the lack of changes within the class. Its quite apparent that some feel that no change is okay, while others feel that the lack of change compared to other classes is a problem.
    That completely changed the way we managed our rotation, bringing in the need for shock management where before the only time we cared was 'Oh I'm moving, should I frost shock or just refresh Flame Shock again?'. And what about Lava Surge? Giving us something rotational that involved reactions rather than watching cooldowns.

    Also, please stop with the unnecessary digs at the character of me or others who disagree that major change is needed. 'Others are okay with no change' is neither a necessary comment nor an accurate one. There are many changes I think that need to be done, and that I want to be done, I just disagree with some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fixing an issue isn't a significant change or revamp, its fixing the mess you created. Why is a complete overhaul needed? Because many Shaman mechanics haven't been changed since Vanilla, while others are simply leftover design holes that Blizzard never fixed or addressed (2H Enhance).

    Its not change for changes sake. Its change so that the Shaman class can match their peers.
    Every change done in WoW ever was to fix an issue. Whether that issue was stale game play (addition of Lava Surge to ele rotation), weak abilities (class buffs), too strong abilities (class nerfs), uninteresting choices (old talent system) or anything else. I just don't understand how you can say some changes other classes get are alright and 'count', but the changes we get don't count because they 'had to be done'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually majority of current totems are the same totems we had in Cataclysm. We had Tremor Totem, Grounding Totem, Searing Totem, Healing Stream Totem, Stone Claw Totem, Mana Tide Totem, SLT, etc. So how are they any less interactive then than they are now?
    Tremor Totem was changed in Cata to be more reactive rather than preemptive, to follow the philosophy they were developing for totems. Grounding Totem has no reason to be changed, its just a spell absorb mechanic. Searing Totem I've said needs to change. Healing Stream Totem has changed significantly, it works completely differently to how it used too, but again needs change. Stone Claw Totem doesn't even exist anymore. Mana Tide Totem and SLT remain the same as from Cata as, like the Post-Cata Tremor Totem, they fit the model for what totems are meant to be now.

    Why does every ability need a major overhaul if it works? These totems fit the philosophy of what totems are meant to be, reactive cooldowns, so why do they need a rework? The only reason I seem to see is 'because we want change', but at the same time people complain that we don't have unique abilities anymore. Our totems are the most unique thing about us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, they did the exact same thing in Cataclysm and even WotLk. If I had a Mage bearing down on me, I still dropped Grounding Totem. If I needed a shield, I used glyphed Stone Claw Totem. If I needed to stop a fear I dropped Tremor totem. The only thing that massive totem revamp did was take away buff totems, and forced us to use 4 GCDs as opposed to 1 GCD since they removed the Shaman ability that allowed us to summon 4 totems at once.
    Yeah, and the totem philosophy has always worked pretty well in PvP, because you didn't care purely about throughput, so you were okay totem dancing. They removed all the totem fluff (buff totems) to allow for you to do this without any punishment at all, and to also make it so that PvE got to experience this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    All the dumb totem limits that existed then still exist now.
    Just as the 'dumb limits' of 'normal' buffs still exist. They can still be purged (apart from a unique and powerful few). Every ability in the game has some kind of weakness, even if that weakness is just 'it has a cooldown' or 'it costs me resources to use'. There is no perfect ability in the whole game, thats the way it is meant to be.
    Last edited by mmoc63fa3da953; 2014-06-03 at 08:46 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    ***alpha***
    and because of ppl like this we are so bad on realise. shaman crying is muted because of players yelling we are fine its only alfa , its only beta, its only start of tier we will get fixed next tier, BUT OTHER CLASSES CRY MORE and getting attention.

  17. #97
    from my pvp point of view, hex is 45 CD long when polymorph is 15-20 seconds, when i look at all the mobility of all melee classes: warrior, ret, DK, feral druid, monks, rogue they can do alot to close the gap between them and their target. the self heals of ret, feral, rogue, warlock, monk, DKs outweight ours unless we pop ascendance but even then if they stun us long enough our ascendance is nullified.

    I'm not saying we're bad, or we need a huge buff but some love like the rest of the specs and classes got would be great. only good thing blizzard has done for us is the DR of all CCs so now we can't get trained in an opener.

  18. #98
    If anything the lack of massive shaman changes is making me want to play my shaman in WoD since I don't care for the changes made to locks in WoD after I stopped playing my druid with MoP when they decided to split feral into 2 specs.

  19. #99
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    and because of ppl like this we are so bad on realise. shaman crying is muted because of players yelling we are fine its only alfa , its only beta, its only start of tier we will get fixed next tier, BUT OTHER CLASSES CRY MORE and getting attention.
    Whilst its true that you should air your opinions on your class, and what you think should change, there is a vast difference between 'who cries more gets more' and that. There are millions of people who play this game, just because the small community that you interact with often say something, does not mean that the entire community thinks that. Blizzard has to take this into account.

    I do agree however, that blindly saying **alpha** isn't the way to go either.
    Last edited by mmoc63fa3da953; 2014-06-03 at 09:05 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Whilst its true that you should air your opinions on your class, and what you think should change, there is a vast difference between 'who cries more gets more' and that. There are millions of people who play this game, just because the small community that you interact with often say something, does not mean that the entire community thinks that. Blizzard has to take this into account.

    I do agree however, that blindly saying **alpha** isn't the way to go either, and is highly nonconstructive.

    i would like some improvements and bit tweaks for shamans one in a while like could EB add just to ele , i cane live without that
    BUT I DEMAND FOR FIRST TIME ATLEAST FOR 5TH EXP FINALLY BALANCE SHAMAN TO BE ON PAR FOR FIRST TIER, and that is general source of complains about shaman game play as not enough buffs shamans are getting and ppl start to feel that mechanics are at fault.

    and you cant argue about that shamans are horrible balanced almost every time.

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