"Impossible to get stealth opener on flared hunter" True/False?

[SamuraiJakkass86]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13019342477

Reading through this thread, and I was curious. I haven't played since early cata, but it would seem like with the new talent tree the Cloak & Dagger skill would enable a stealth opener in a flare. I assume that it does the attack/damage and then teleports you to the targets backside. Is that not the case?

[Avada Kedavra]

Not if the hunter is camo

[Instructor Soki]

Don't even have to have C&D - just burst of speed in and spam your opener and it'll hit.
That's assuming the hunter doesn't have camouflage up of course. That's really what makes opening in a flare not possible.

In that thread though.. That Rogue's just really, really bad.

[SamuraiJakkass86]

Huh. So a rogues only option when going against a hunter is to completely abandon their class mechanic? Or is this just pessimistic?

[Squirl]

Hunters are a pretty hard 1v1 counter for Rogues. You just don't get an opener if they're vigilant.

[Sesshou]

The camo thing is bull shit. We're actually stealthed and that doesn't stop a god damn thing from being able to target us. For how they balance us in arena around our opener being insanely important, its complete bull shit that they hand out stuff that just totally screws it over. Dodging normal sized AEs and managing to find other stealthed targets is fair, but some of the new stuff is ridiculous.

[Instructor Soki]

The camo thing is bull shit. We're actually stealthed and that doesn't stop a god damn thing from being able to target us. For how they balance us in arena around our opener being insanely important, its complete bull shit that they hand out stuff that just totally screws it over. Dodging normal sized AEs and managing to find other stealthed targets is fair, but some of the new stuff is ridiculous.

So, open on their partner. Or have your partner engage and fight them first - have them waste their opening burst on someone who can take it.
In 3s, it's even more of a nonissue.

There's never nobody for you to go on. Quit crying

[SamuraiJakkass86]

So, open on their partner. Or have your partner engage and fight them first - have them waste their opening burst on someone who can take it.
In 3s, it's even more of a nonissue.

There's never nobody for you to go on. Quit crying

From what I can tell, the big complaint is that hunters effectively have better stealth than we do. Untargettable, glyphed for movement (albeit with a speed decrease), able to cast traps, stealths their pet too. They also hard-counter rogues, so its a slap in the face AND a kick in the nuts.

[Hitei]

From what I can tell, the big complaint is that hunters effectively have better stealth than we do. Untargettable, glyphed for movement (albeit with a speed decrease), able to cast traps, stealths their pet too. They also hard-counter rogues, so its a slap in the face AND a kick in the nuts.

Disarm trap is still being removed right?
Going to be even worse after that happens.

[Warstar]

Eh. Camo is pretty lame. Unless glyphed it's pretty easy to find someone in camo and while glyphed they move so incredibly slow it's not even worth it. Sure hunters can cast traps but rogues can infinitely sap while in stealth as well as attack. Flare is a direct counter to stealth but big whoop. They can only flare once ever 30 seconds or something like that and it's a pretty small area but really one class being able to counter stealth isn't a big deal. As far as stealth v. stealth I'll take rogue stealth over camo any day of the week.

[lifteez]

So, open on their partner. Or have your partner engage and fight them first - have them waste their opening burst on someone who can take it.
In 3s, it's even more of a nonissue.

There's never nobody for you to go on. Quit crying

I'm going to take your statement in two forms, and then I will share my side of the argument to them.
1) flare is a non issue for openers
2) flare is a non issue.

1)"flare is a non issue for openers." say I play rmp, and there whole team sits on flare. That is 100% a issue because if I don't open with our Mage, we just lost a main force of many comps play style, hard burst. If our Mage opened up he won't force CDs alone. If I open up after say he pulls them away(decent teams will either stay on pillar knowing you have to open on flare, or they will just kill your Mage safely while your priest is away/ccd.
Another example, Rls. I need to open to control the enemy team to let our lock get dots rolling. If our lock opens up first, I just failed my job as a rogue in the comp to keep them off my lock, and let him do damage while I CC.
2)"flare is a non issue." Ok, so say I'm playing against rogue(or warr)/hunter/healer. They swapped onto me with my healer ccd, and well I needed to trinket. It happens right. Then I don't need to vanish I just pop a defensive and get out. A minute later they do a swap onto me again in a full stun, and healer is ccd. He trinketed and got unlucky with another cc. I get out of my stun, and then I try to vanish, except now the have a flare on me. I'm dead, vanish could of saved me but I'm rooted by a warr hamstring, etc. Do you see the issue with flare? No other ability in the game says "everyone but you can't use a major defensive) it's a real issue.

Sorry if I misunderstood you're post.

[Noorac]

The issue isn't neccecarily just the flare. Flare is an extremely anoying ability, but doesn't make it impossible to open on the hunter.

The problem comes from a variaty of hunter-abilities, and some wierd rogue-mechanics; A hunter can be completely safe from being opened on if he flares, stand in camo, in the exact middle of the flare, spreads his traps in a half circle behind him. You could possibly sap the hunter with less than 8 seconds left of the flare, but sap counts as a ranged skill, so it can't be used on a camoed hunter. If you try to disable his traps, he will notice that they are disabled, turn around, and with detect stealthed see you, put up a hunters mark, and he can see you. A way to counter all this is with either shadowstep macroed into cheap shot, or cloak and dagger, wich will activate the cheap shot before you are bumped out of stealth, however, you will be kited forever with cloak and dagger, and shadowstep will be negated because the hunter has disengage and scattertrap available more often than the rogue has shadowstep available, so he will kite you with concussive shot. In order to open on a hunter that utilize all this, it's better(in my eyes) to sap his teammate, burst of speed in and hope that you lag long enough to get a cheap shot off before you are flared out.

Flare is annoying because of the use in certain battlegrounds, like silvershard mines, used on a bridge makes you unable to get past it without detection, and if you destealth first, and run through the stealth and restealth on the other side of the flare you are likely to get the hunter's mark before you are able to do so.

Also, flare works similar to faerie fire, that it won't allow you to vanish if you are inside it, and any good hunter will flare you mid combat when it would be natural for you to vanish. From time to time I meet hunters that use flare on CD throughout a whole fight, just to throw you off balance. It is an extremely strong ability vs. rogues. Doesn't make it impossible to take a hunter, however it is probably one of the strongest counters to a spesific class mechanic in the game.

[ymirsson]

Eh. Camo is pretty lame. Unless glyphed it's pretty easy to find someone in camo and while glyphed they move so incredibly slow it's not even worth it. Sure hunters can cast traps but rogues can infinitely sap while in stealth as well as attack. Flare is a direct counter to stealth but big whoop. They can only flare once ever 30 seconds or something like that and it's a pretty small area but really one class being able to counter stealth isn't a big deal. As far as stealth v. stealth I'll take rogue stealth over camo any day of the week.

You can't sap a camoed hunter.
Stealth vs stealth, the rogue wins any contest. But rogue vs hunter, the hunter has many advantages.

p.s.
Are there Ferals in pvp? Do they hate hunters too?

[Super Kami Dende]

A Class that can counter another Class.

Oh lord. The horror.

[Hitei]

A Class that can counter another Class.

Oh lord. The horror.

It'd be one thing if the game was still balanced around that concept, but it isn't.
Hunters have a full tool kit designed to screw over rogues, it's pretty stupid.

[Deleted]

If you guys think that hunter is hard now...
And what do you want Hunter is your counter since vanilla back in times it was most effective class against rogues and still is but in the right hands only
If you arent that happy with that go kill some shaman instead
Ome mentoed ferals
They are much more hard opponent to hunters

[Paythepiper]

I play feral, tbh against Hunters its not so horrible, you might lose Youre opener but you're pretty nasty against Hunters because you can get out of some of the stuff he does on you, also you have a ton of bleed damage that goes true his deterrence, so 50/50 maybe, its a balanced fight imo

[Sativ]

I play feral

You are living in a totally different world.

[Mafic]

Non hunter classes and specs can deathgrip/stun, dot, etc from range if you approach from the front without shadow walk. You need Subterfuge+Shadow Step or Cloak and Dagger for a chance at an opener but in doing so you have lost by being overly aggressive.

[tavalus]

It's the combination of camo+flare+FFeffect that makes it too strong imo. Also, from what I've noticed (and I may be mistaken and it could have been for some other weird reason) there's times you can't even disarm hunter traps that has something to do with camo - you don't get the cogwheel to even attempt it.