[Resto] Warlords of Draenor Alpha: Build 18379

[adynn]

I think everyone knows and should accept that current shroom needs a nerf (5 min efflo for ~6k mana is hilarious) and it should probably resemble other healers' options more. I just think that a 30 cd/duration doesn't really have a place in current boss design (and sanctuary should be shortened also) and I believe everyone would prefer bloom to genesis if one is getting cut.

[Deleted]

For me the problem is why they took Bloom away. It's true that both Genesis and Bloom are for burst healing but they are used in different situations. To know when you should use what spell requires at least a bit of skill and situational awareness.
I know that it's still alpha but the fact that they are seriously condering taking away spells like Bloom or Voide Shift is not a good sign at all. If they are too strong than just adjust the numbers, but taking them away means dumbing down the game : (

[Floopa]

they want healers to be able to do less stuff on the move which is good design if you ask me

and even then druids have it a lot better than other classes because you can do more stuff on the move than any other healer can

[stormgust]

For me the problem is why they took Bloom away. It's true that both Genesis and Bloom are for burst healing but they are used in different situations. To know when you should use what spell requires at least a bit of skill and situational awareness.
I know that it's still alpha but the fact that they are seriously condering taking away spells like Bloom or Voide Shift is not a good sign at all. If they are too strong than just adjust the numbers, but taking them away means dumbing down the game : (

The problem is, genesis really isn't group burst, but rather multi-target (less than a group). At 5 rejuvenation ticks left (about two targets), you get aprox. 70%SP/s healing more for the next 3 seconds on (about, depending on haste) two targets, 46%SP/s on two additional targets, and the next two get a nice 23%SP/s more.

It's probably better to use 2x RG and SM for equal amount of burst on two targets, and considerable more on a third target for a slightly higher mana investement.

If the reason of as to why they opted for genesis is, that they found it problematic to balance efflorescence otherwise (uptime vs. OH store), I'd rather have them get rid of efflorescence and retain mushroom for its burst ability (equal burst potential for all group members group, restricted by area and possible CD/OH, instead of a multi-target-but-not-group burst ability, which happens to loose much of its potential past two targets)

[Floopa]

why do you need a burst healing spell? what burst healing spells do other classes have? holy priests, MWs, holy paladins, shamans - they don't have 1 so i dont see why druids need 1

[stormgust]

why do you need a burst healing spell? what burst healing spells do other classes have? holy priests, MWs, holy paladins, shamans - they don't have 1 so i dont see why druids need 1

If those classes you listed didn't have burst healing spells, they wouldn't have added shrooms in the first place, yet they deemed it necessary.
Quick fact about healing: A spell without CD is only limited by mana. And that's where other classes burst potential comes from (and druid were lacking without shrooms).

[Floopa]

If those classes you listed didn't have burst healing spells, they wouldn't have added shrooms in the first place, yet they deemed it necessary.
Quick fact about healing: A spell without CD is only limited by mana. And that's where other classes burst potential comes from (and druid were lacking without shrooms).

mana isn't an issue for any healer.

as you seem to think every other healer has burst healing spells, name them please. i'm interested.

[Isheria]

Druids were lacking without shrooms because back then healing classes had burst and smart heals were all over the place. Currently in alpha no class has burst because every instant cast spell either received a cast time or got heavily nerfed and in some cases both and so did smart heals as well.

[adynn]

Any direct heal or absorb can be considered a burst heal in the same way Shroom currently is.

It's child's play to time a PoH to go off immediately after damage (or Chain Heal etc).

Druid's were lacking a multitarget direct heal, which was quite a weakness in 10H as aoe burst damage was so prevalent in MoP.

[Tiberria]

The cast time being added on Wild Growth makes it somewhat more of a burst heal as well, because we can actually now pre-cast it to line it up with an incoming damage burst, much the same way that people are describing timing PoH. Also, Wild Growth is apparently buffed by like 500% relative to other spells (as well as being bumped to 55% of base mana). Floopa, on Alpha, how much does Wild Growth heal for relative to other similar spells (Chain Heal, CoH, Uplift, etc)? Is it affordable on cooldown even with the ridiculous mana cost? How much does Lifebloom bloom for relative to the HoT portion?

I think part of the reason why they kept Genesis and cut WM: Bloom is that Bloom is a stacked AoE burst heal, whereas Genesis has less limitations and is more of a spread burst heal. The Druid niche/toolkit is supposed to be built around spread healing, so it just fit better.

[stormgust]

mana isn't an issue for any healer.

as you seem to think every other healer has burst healing spells, name them please. i'm interested.

E.g. PoH, Uplift. Any spells used to peak HPS, which druids more or less lacked prior to WM:Bloom [we're already capped by just chaining reju/wg - which obviously produced a lot of healing, just within a 12-15s timerinverall vs. 3s PoH/Uplift were able to achieve].

The cast time being added on Wild Growth makes it somewhat more of a burst heal as well, because we can actually now pre-cast it to line it up with an incoming damage burst, much the same way that people are describing timing PoH.

Huh? That honestly doesn't make much sense. You can cast instant spells right the moment the burst damage hits, so you really don't gain/loose anything here.

Also, Wild Growth is apparently buffed by like 500% relative to other spells (as well as being bumped to 55% of base mana). Floopa, on Alpha, how much does Wild Growth heal for relative to other similar spells (Chain Heal, CoH, Uplift, etc)? Is it affordable on cooldown even with the ridiculous mana cost?

WG is a total 329% SP over 7s (at 55% base/11% maxmana). PoH is 110% spellpower (4.4% basemana). CoH is 110% (2.2% basemana). Uplift is 82% (at 2 Chi).
Ch is 81% for initial (at 17.5% base / 3.5% max ). As for wether it's affordable or you actually want to use it on cooldown: That's nothing one could possibly decide at lvl 92.

How much does Lifebloom bloom for relative to the HoT portion?

Bloom = 0.73*HoT (1.1 with glyph of blooming). What they basically did is turn the spell from a cheap, tank buffer into a end-loaded heal (glyph of bloomig required).
It's a nobrainer at 5% basemana, thus a rise to about 30% basemana is what I'd expect them to do. But then it'll definitely be used not as a tank buffer, but as a timed heal to counter tank burst. [Like Swiftmend, just placing the action 10s prior to the burst occuring - not really needed, but strictly superior healing wise]

I think part of the reason why they kept Genesis and cut WM: Bloom is that Bloom is a stacked AoE burst heal, whereas Genesis has less limitations and is more of a spread burst heal. The Druid niche/toolkit is supposed to be built around spread healing, so it just fit better.

The problem with genesis is, that it's rapidely declining in actual burst potential because it's based on healing left. To fix that, genesis would need to be fixed to a certain amount of healing, which either

[Floopa]

on alpha uplift is not a good heal. PoH is not a good heal. CoH is not a good heal. the only good aoe heal left in the game is WG and maybe healing rain

also the 2 chi you speak of is more expensive than any of the heals you listed because the only way to gen chi now is to use expensive spells (ReM, Surging, SCK)

on alpha druids are the strongest healer (with these changes) if anything they need more nerfs, not buffs.

[Tiberria]

Bloom = 0.73*HoT (1.1 with glyph of blooming). What they basically did is turn the spell from a cheap, tank buffer into a end-loaded heal (glyph of bloomig required).
It's a nobrainer at 5% basemana, thus a rise to about 30% basemana is what I'd expect them to do. But then it'll definitely be used not as a tank buffer, but as a timed heal to counter tank burst. [Like Swiftmend, just placing the action 10s prior to the burst occuring - not really needed, but strictly superior healing wise]

I doubt they want to change Lifebloom so that it's not designed to be used with 100% uptime. Changing it to 15% of base mana might be more reasonable, given that you are getting 3 times the healing of the current 3 stack design. The problem is that if they make it cost prohibitive to spam it during Incarnation, they will make that talent just never worth using over Soul of the Forest.

With SoTF and the extremely high mana cost of WG, I suspect that you will probably just want to use WG lined up with Swiftmend every 15 seconds. Hopefully at least that is mana affordable at the 55% base mana cost.

[stormgust]

on alpha uplift is not a good heal. PoH is not a good heal. CoH is not a good heal. the only good aoe heal left in the game is WG and maybe healing rain

CoH heals 1/3rd of WG at 1/5 of the mana. Seems fine for an efficient heal. PoH heals 1/3rd at 2/5 of the mana, doesn't have a CD, is supposed to be high troughput - so yeah, maybe it's slightly low number wise. But the lack of a CD caps the amount it can heal for relative to WG (i.e. at most 1/2 WG I'd say).

As for Healing Rain - we really need raidtesting to figure out how not-so-smart heals work out (same for deep healing).

also the 2 chi you speak of is more expensive than any of the heals you listed because the only way to gen chi now is to use expensive spells (ReM, Surging, SCK)

One could turn that argument around and just say, that Uplift is actually the cheapest, becomes it's cost is generated via your regular healing abilities, which should be used aprox. as frequently as other classes equivalents, and at least be (on average) at equal strength.

on alpha druids are the strongest healer (with these changes) if anything they need more nerfs, not buffs.

So, you're not only basing this on the fact that druids are to strong at level 92, using numbers tuned for level 100, for mechanics which aren't yet completely ironed out, but also miss to provide any actual argument as to why you think it is that way. Nah, It's slightly hard to take you seriously here.

So some suggestion: If you want to discuss numbers, please leave this thread and do not return until we're well mid into raid testing. If you want to discuss mechanics, sure, I'm up for that.

I doubt they want to change Lifebloom so that it's not designed to be used with 100% uptime. Changing it to 15% of base mana might be more reasonable, given that you are getting 3 times the healing of the current 3 stack design. The problem is that if they make it cost prohibitive to spam it during Incarnation, they will make that talent just never worth using over Soul of the Forest.

With SoTF and the extremely high mana cost of WG, I suspect that you will probably just want to use WG lined up with Swiftmend every 15 seconds. Hopefully at least that is mana affordable at the 55% base mana cost.

The problem is, if they don't make it cost prohibitive (probably everything which makes it cheaper to cast anew than to refresh via ht or OoC+RG), we've just been given the most effective tank burst heal there is - in addition to one of the best tank buffer. It's really to strong of a spell when tanks aren't supposed to die instantly (it probably can almost do the tankheal job by itself)

[Tiberria]

The problem is, if they don't make it cost prohibitive (probably everything which makes it cheaper to cast anew than to refresh via ht or OoC+RG), we've just been given the most effective tank burst heal there is - in addition to one of the best tank buffer. It's really to strong of a spell when tanks aren't supposed to die instantly (it probably can almost do the tankheal job by itself)

It will only be the strongest tank heal if (a) tanks are always sitting sub 100% HP (b) you are able to accurately predict the timing of a tank damage spike 10 seconds ahead of time (15 seconds without the glyph). If neither of those are true, the value of the bloom portion is going to kind of be hit and miss. The only thing the single stacks really changes is it removes any incentive to really care about the HoT blooming.

I think the more likely scenario is that they just nerf the bloom portion of the spell significantly.

[stormgust]

It will only be the strongest tank heal if (a) tanks are always sitting sub 100% HP (b) you are able to accurately predict the timing of a tank damage spike 10 seconds ahead of time (15 seconds without the glyph). If neither of those are true, the value of the bloom portion is going to kind of be hit and miss. The only thing the single stacks really changes is it removes any incentive to really care about the HoT blooming.

Most (semi)hard hitting tank abilities are on a set timer, so you can easily plan around that. Also, their plan is to have tanks sitting below 100% HP (especially guardians by the look of it) - so even if you miss a timer, it'll hardly go into overheal.

I think the more likely scenario is that they just nerf the bloom portion of the spell significantly.

Problematic with Lifeblooms PvP use - and unlikely to be fixed via glyphs [because there wouldn't be anything else you really need to take anyway].

[Keiyra]

wow...that ability pruning was harsh, no barkskin, no might of ursoc.

Ugh, much rather have axed genesis and kept bloom (even with nerfing shrooms cause they were to strong in alpha). Genesis is such a trap spell, it rare to be able to squeeze the most out of it. If it didn't consume the rejuvs (even if it had a higher mana cost and a CD for balance) - that would be so much better

[Tiberria]

I know Survival Instincts puts you in bear form on Alpha apparently. However, does the Survival Instincts buff drop off if you immediately switch out to caster or another form like Might of Ursoc does, or does it persist? If it persists, it won't be that bad of a change (70% DR /2 charges/2 minute CD) is a reasonable trade off for 20% DR/45 sec CD. If you have to sit in Bear to keep the damage reduction, it will be absolutely atrocious though.

[Floopa]

it goes away when you switch. think of SI like dispersion

[Tiberria]

it goes away when you switch. think of SI like dispersion

Are you sure? Because if you spec Guardian on live and use SI, shifting doesn't take it away. I think making it into a full out silence like Dispersion is a mistake, especially when it isn't a near immunity like Dispersion is.