Latest [Druid] Ability Pruning Changes!

[hullaballoonatic]

This is getting kind of silly. I enjoy a good argument from time to time, but this will be to be scaled back a bit or I'm going to bow out. Please focus only on the merits and evidence of the arguments and try to keep the emotion out of it, because accusations like

The thing is you've clearly demonstrated that you have no desire to or know to use hibernate if you think it's such a limited use ability.

and

You come off as extremely selfish for advocating its removal

do absolutely nothing to support your claims.

Secondly, comments like this are not helpful either:

Can't make it any clearer than the posts in this thread already have. Perhaps you could re-read them.

I laid out the pieces of the discussion as reasonably as I could looking for your logical evidence to contradict mine, and you just ignored it.

It's not a very interesting move to you but it's interesting to an overwhelming number of druids. I have a feeling that you're in a very small minority in not liking / using hibernate.

This is a claim that would require empirical evidence, which I presume you are missing. Blizzard states time and time again that the forums are a poor place to gauge the reaction of the playerbase, because people that are unhappy with a change are far more present than people that are happy with one, and minorities can be extremely vocal.

LI doesn't justify removing the moonfire spell. You're making assumptions when you have no concrete evidence. It's a better guess that LI was put in place as a compelling ranged cp generator. It wasn't meant to replace caster form moonfire because caster form moonfire didnt generate cp's, didn't use energy as a resource, could be hit back to back, and only did a piddly amount of damage - but it had it's purpose.

Perhaps I truly am not creative enough with my moonfire, but the best purpose I ever had for it was tagging a lot of mobs in a row, and if you're doing this they're mobs you can easily plow through, and so you're not want for any of the other level 100 talents. Assuming the LI moonfire does enough damage to compete with bloody talons and savagery, then moonfire for ferals that take that talent will never have been more powerful at the use of moonfire before. Does that not excite you?

With your way you just cyclone as your one and only cc. That is boring, dull game-play and no one (except you perhaps?) will enjoy that.

Cyclone, tier 75, mass entanglement, bear charge, maim, rake. I count at least 4, and at most 6 (depending on how you feel about roots as CC).

You don't have to lacerate to gain additional rage/threat, now it just happens because it's baked into your other abilities. It discourages putting some thought into what ability to use. It removes an ability that was fun to use.

I don't personally advocate for the removal of lacerate (especially considering moonkin and resto don't even get to have thrash), but i can see why they did, and pretending like lacerate was a really fun move is silly to me. It was kind of fun back when you had pulverize consume the stacks, or when thrash had a 6 second cooldown, so you had to spread lacerate to many other enemies, but now all you do with lacerate as a guardian is fill with it, or if in an aoe situation fill with thrash. For a non-guardian spec, I just don't see how filling only with thrash is that seriously worse than filling with lacerate or filling with thrash. I'd rather keep the lacerate, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it disappearing especially when feral spot tanking is likely not be commonly used.

So what's going to happen in WoD when they focus the druid? We all go bear form and pray we live? Displacer beast / Travel form and run away? Heal through it? Our survival choices are now tied into talents, which is something I don't particularly like. Also if getting focused, one can assume you will be getting interupted, which makes casting CC's / heals a bit difficult.

Bear form is a better damage sponge than ever before, and you have 24 seconds of 70% damage reduction, plus healthpools are getting doubled. Also keep in mind blizzard is scaling back these abilities across the board. It's hard to get a good picture of how well druids will be able to survive or deal damage or be effective in a meta we have no hands-on experience with it, so it's best to wait and see.

[Gemini Soul]

Sorry, I am not a native english speaker, what I mean is: they can give us:

Travel Form now automatically transitions between Aquatic, Land, and Flight versions, as is appropriate to the Druid’s location.
- Glyph of the Stag now teaches the Druid a separate shapeshift ability, Stag Form. Stag Form will not switch between different Travel Form, and allows the Druid to act as a mount for other players.

As you can see both options are still there, we can use the ground "stag form" if we glyph it. Another thing they can do to easy this is let us macro our old forms if we want to, such as:

/cast flight form
or
/cast aquatic form
or
/cast travel form (the ground one)

That macro wont work because the new travel is an All in one spell, macros like that work if the spells are in our spell book but they are merging ground, aqua and flight into one spell so they will all be removed from our spell book.

Perfect example is Flight Form and Swift Flight Form, which gets replaced by the new spell.

Now if they left all the forms in our book AND gave us the All In One spell, then that would be ok.



Also on a side note, Moon Fire and Rejuv are THE most iconic spells of a druid and only certain specs can use them now.

Is it me or are they shafting bears each Xpac, first we have to talent for out charge and now we loose the awesomeness that is lazer beams and rejuv.

[hullaballoonatic]

Moon Fire and Rejuv are THE most iconic spells of a druid and only certain specs can use them now.

I can agree that they should not have removed these spells from the certain specs, but maybe not for that reason. The only reason I can conceive for blizzard to want to remove them is to cut down on the spellbook for new players, so they won't feel the need to use them. Rejuv and Moonfire certainly do not cut down on keybound/on-the-bars ability bloat for druids since they exist on different shapeshifting bars.

[gestapo]

The only reason I can conceive for blizzard to want to remove them is to cut down on the spellbook for new players, so they won't feel the need to use them. Rejuv and Moonfire certainly do not cut down on keybound/on-the-bars ability bloat for druids since they exist on different shapeshifting bars.

That's a terrible reason, and completely unwarranted. It needs to remain not only because they're iconic druid spells (and please don't throw spec into it) but also because those two abilities won't make any difference in button bloat, and druids are supposed to be a more complex class with more abilities. It's one of the draws of the class for people that like it.

That macro wont work because the new travel is an All in one spell, macros like that work if the spells are in our spell book but they are merging ground, aqua and flight into one spell so they will all be removed from our spell book.

That was my understanding of the new ability as well, which is why I asked him to clarify.

Perfect example is Flight Form and Swift Flight Form, which gets replaced by the new spell.Now if they left all the forms in our book AND gave us the All In One spell, then that would be ok.

Excellent idea.

This is getting kind of silly. I enjoy a good argument from time to time, but this will be to be scaled back a bit or I'm going to bow out. Please focus only on the merits and evidence of the arguments and try to keep the emotion out of it, because accusations like

The thing is you've clearly demonstrated that you have no desire to or know to use hibernate if you think it's such a limited use ability.

and

You come off as extremely selfish for advocating its removal

do absolutely nothing to support your claims.

Neutronstar?
Anyway, I apologize if it comes off that way, but I sincerely don't mean it as an insult. Please try to make an attempt at understanding this. If you don't find use for hibernate enough to warrant it being removed you either:
a) Don't choose to use it
b) Don't know to use it.

It's not an insult, but merely a reasonable deduction because there are plenty of situations where I find hibernate both useful and fun, in [B]all/B] aspects of the game. Just because you don't find any use for the spell it does not mean it doesn't exist. This is an extremely poor reason for Blizzard to remove a spell and if you consider yourself a just, unbiased player I would hope that you don't support it.

And just in case you were thinking it, I would remind you once again that raiding isn't the only facet of this game and we really shouldn't use it as a gauge for balance. Instead we need to look at the game in it's entirety and how everyone enjoys the game. Not just the raiders.

Secondly, comments like this are not helpful either:

Can't make it any clearer than the posts in this thread already have. Perhaps you could re-read them.

I laid out the pieces of the discussion as reasonably as I could looking for your logical evidence to contradict mine, and you just ignored it.

It's not a very interesting move to you but it's interesting to an overwhelming number of druids. I have a feeling that you're in a very small minority in not liking / using hibernate.

This is a claim that would require empirical evidence, which I presume you are missing. Blizzard states time and time again that the forums are a poor place to gauge the reaction of the playerbase, because people that are unhappy with a change are far more present than people that are happy with one, and minorities can be extremely vocal.

Again, it's not meant as an insult and I mean that with all sincerity. For one, grow a thicker skin. People do far far worse on the forum all the time, but I stand by what I said. It appears that you don't seem to have understood what was said, or glossed over it. This could be a mistake, it can happen to anyone, which is why I suggested you look it over again.

I agree that the forums aren't an ideal choice, but i find hard pressed to believe that the majority of the druid community (in game & forums) will like this change. While I might be making assumptions of what people like, at least I'm going by the majority in the forum and the collection of people that play druids in game, which honestly don't go over 15 - 20 people. However, you're making assumptions on behalf of Blizzard as to why they're making certain changes.

I'll stop assuming that most druids like this change if you stop trying to tell me what Blizzard thinks because until they come out and say it, you really don't know. I'd be glad to acknowledge their reason behind a change if they are up front about it, but I - as will the community - will voice our opinions in an attempt to revert a chance that doesn't really affect anyone in a negative way.

Perhaps I truly am not creative enough with my moonfire, but the best purpose I ever had for it was tagging a lot of mobs in a row, and if you're doing this they're mobs you can easily plow through, and so you're not want for any of the other level 100 talents. Assuming the LI moonfire does enough damage to compete with bloody talons and savagery, then moonfire for ferals that take that talent will never have been more powerful at the use of moonfire before. Does that not excite you?

Yes, I suspect you're not creative enough with your moonfire. Removal still ends up restricting a talent choice for a person who’s had the moonfire spell for 8+ years an wants something other than LI. That's a poor choice to force a druid to make. Obviously I'd be happy to have a stronger moonfire, but that's not the only point. See above.

Cyclone, tier 75, mass entanglement, bear charge, maim, rake. I count at least 4, and at most 6 (depending on how you feel about roots as CC).

Forget raids & pve for just a moment. I'm talking about this from a pvp perspective (something that every person advocating this change has appeared to miss or doesn't participate in). Mass Entanglement doesn't count simply because root doesn't, and the same with bear charge. It doesn't do much to a ranged spec.
Bash - though it's on the same tier as ME, Maim & Rake are both stuns and rake can only be used once in a real pvp situation unless you're using incarnation - and if you're exceptionally skilled, or have impeccable timing with absolutely no downtime during the 30s of incarnation - you can only use the rake stun twice in that duration. I can say with experience and from watching obscene amounts of videos of Feral pvp'ers from low level to the multi-glad & rank 1 that this perfect pvp situation doesn't exist. Any team 1200 and above will cc the druid during incarnation so you aren't getting more than one rake/pounce.

Furthermore, all of these require melee range. Cyclone remains the one cc you can cast from range, and that has extreme limitations as Feral. You have a much shorter range, you lose a considerable amount of damage to cast it, you incur a global cd going back into form for having cast it, you open yourself to additional cc like polymorph and I can't imagine there's any spec in game that's weaker than a Feral in caster form. Rogues for e.g. will love you if you open yourself up and go caster.
With losing barkskin in WoD - another spell you seem to advocate losing - you can guarantee that you're dead inside a stun.

All this was brought up because of hibernate. It needs to stay and it doesn't break the game. Scare beast needs to stay as well. Having these options creates an additional element of skill in the right time to use these abilities. It rewards the caster and that's a good thing for a game. I'm exhausting myself giving you every reason that a spell like hibernate needs to stay in game. Roots – the spell that you want to list as CC is also being lost and a 30s ME isn’t going worthwhile because Typhoon is far superior in its utility. Also sad for the owls & trees that they will lose Faerie Fire and only get it back through Faerie Swarm.

I don't personally advocate for the removal of lacerate (especially considering moonkin and resto don't even get to have thrash), but i can see why they did, and pretending like lacerate was a really fun move is silly to me. It was kind of fun back when you had pulverize consume the stacks, or when thrash had a 6 second cooldown, so you had to spread lacerate to many other enemies, but now all you do with lacerate as a guardian is fill with it, or if in an aoe situation fill with thrash. For a non-guardian spec, I just don't see how filling only with thrash is that seriously worse than filling with lacerate or filling with thrash. I'd rather keep the lacerate, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it disappearing especially when feral spot tanking is likely not be commonly used.

Pray tell how you can see why they did it. Also are you seriously trying to tell me whether I find a spell fun or not? If you’re not joking or trolling with that statement you don’t deserve the decency of a reply and you’ve invalidated anything you have to say on this subject matter. You don’t get to inflict your opinion on anyone other than yourself.
Losing lacerate is one less spell, it’s one less bleed I can put on a rogue to keep them from vanishing, it’s one less bleed I can get on someone to keep them in combat. If you look at the Feral spec in the WoD talent calculator it looks like we have less than 15 abilities. That’s one action bar plus 3 other spells. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad.

So what's going to happen in WoD when they focus the druid? We all go bear form and pray we live? Displacer beast / Travel form and run away? Heal through it? Our survival choices are now tied into talents, which is something I don't particularly like. Also if getting focused, one can assume you will be getting interupted, which makes casting CC's / heals a bit difficult.

Bear form is a better damage sponge than ever before, and you have 24 seconds of 70% damage reduction, plus healthpools are getting doubled. Also keep in mind blizzard is scaling back these abilities across the board. It's hard to get a good picture of how well druids will be able to survive or deal damage or be effective in a meta we have no hands-on experience with it, so it's best to wait and see.

Using PVE only examples makes your argument poor.
Bear form will do absolutely nothing that it doesn’t already do vs casters.
Losing barkskin is very very bad for the spec. You need to have some mitigation you can use while cc’d. (Note, this was extremely useful in pve as well)
Everyone’s healthpools are being doubled.
What abilities you refer to are blizzard scaling back?

- - - Updated - - -

Also you better stop calling people delusional because they don´t agree with you. As a matter of fact, I played feral in vanilla and was kind of hated by it. Also to kill someone in pvp I would also use pounce, rake, rip, moonfire and entangle and most of the time watch them die out of all that dot damage (if they didn´t I could just bear charge, bash and do other fun stuff). So I do miss the skills, and I won´t cry like a baby over loosing them. But one thing is for sure, such skills do so poor damage as feral nowadays (caster ones) that it is worthless to use them already, that is all I am saying.

We will have wrath to pull from range, faerie fire and moonfire if we choose the talent Lunar Inspiration.

Just so you know, I play balance nowadays.

Too bad, it's still delusional talk. Just because you don't use those spells doesn't mean other druids dont. This is a common problem with all you 'druids' that are advocating for the removal of iconic/fun abilities. They think that their playstyle is the only way. This isn't a dictatorship. Everyone plays the game and has fun their own way.

Also, to clarify, you never moonfire in any remotely serious pvp while in mid rotation. You'd moonfire to stop flag caps or keep people in combat to prevent stealth/drinking.

It doesn't matter that a skill does poor damage. You people need to get this into your head that doing damage isn't the only part of this game. For the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake, it's like talking to a brick wall with all of you. You just can't see past your own selfish needs!

[hullaballoonatic]

I think a lot of the argument is being degraded by the fluff. I'll be brief, then:

• Because of the removal of base health, the stamina buff from Bear Form translates to a pure hp % boost. This makes bear form an improved sponge from MoP.
• Lacerate bleed lasts only 15 seconds. Thrash bleed lasts 16 seconds, so you don't need lacerate if your intent is to keep people from stealthing from bear form. Bleeds don't keep people in combat.
• With the removal of might of ursoc and entangling roots/nature's grasp, renewal and mass entanglement value increases, respectively.
• I assume we will be seeing a bunch of additional changes to make things like moonfireless feral congruent with lunar inspiration and faeriefireless moonkins and trees congruent with faerie swarm. Guardian still has a clause in heart of the wild allowing bears to cast rejuvenation. Etc etc.
• There are 31 spells for feral in WoD not including the bear spells or potential talents.
• Roots are CCs. Not every CC has to be effective on everything. Hibernate works like that.
• This is a dictatorship. None of us are the dictator. Blizzard isn't making game design decisions based on player polls.
• Faerie Fire forces combat; ergo accomplishes all the things you illustrate moonfire can do.
• One can additionally advocate for the removal of a spell that he/she does not enjoy using.

This is a common problem with all you 'druids' that are advocating for the removal of iconic/fun abilities. They think that their playstyle is the only way.

I would hope the inherent hypocrisy of this statement illustrates its ineffectiveness. If this is not clear, please refer to the last bullet-point on the preceding list.

[Enok]

These changes are amazing! There is not one ability on this list that should not be removed, with regard to:
- cc reduction
- ability pruning
- raid cd reduction

Druids will still feel unique.

Druids have some of the highest ability bloat in the game.
This is a good quality of life change. I will be happy not to have to bind the entirety of my keyboard and mouse come WOD.

[gestapo]

I think a lot of the argument is being degraded by the fluff. I'll be brief, then:
[*]Because of the removal of base health, the stamina buff from Bear Form translates to a pure hp % boost. This makes bear form an improved sponge from MoP.

Have they increased how much increased stamina Bear Form gives? If not isn't this the exact same as live because it's base off a percentage?

[*]Lacerate bleed lasts only 15 seconds. Thrash bleed lasts 16 seconds, so you don't need lacerate if your intent is to keep people from stealthing from bear form. Bleeds don't keep people in combat.

It's one less tool we have to keep people from stealth while in bear form. You do realize that you can stagger the bleeds with a slight overlap, opening up other options?
While the bleed itself may not keep a player in combat, the act of applying the bleed will increase the duration by 6 seconds (if that number is right).

[*]With the removal of might of ursoc and entangling roots/nature's grasp, renewal and mass entanglement value increases, respectively.

Yes, you're not wrong there. It's still a weak talent with different solutions to the problem.

[*]I assume we will be seeing a bunch of additional changes to make things like moonfireless feral congruent with lunar inspiration and faeriefireless moonkins and trees congruent with faerie swarm. Guardian still has a clause in heart of the wild allowing bears to cast rejuvenation. Etc etc.

I look forward to seeing any such changes.

[*]There are 31 spells for feral in WoD not including the bear spells or potential talents.

Please show me a link to a list. I must have seen far fewer in the wowhead talent calculator.

[*]Roots are CCs. Not every CC has to be effective on everything. Hibernate works like that.

You took what I said out of context, which was regarding pvp combat. In that situation roots are a weak cc - even weaker in WoD with shared DR. Cyclone is our only 'good' CC. Hibernate won't even exist, which you seem to like?

[*]This is a dictatorship. None of us are the dictator. Blizzard isn't making game design decisions based on player polls.

Obviously. But it isn't your dictatorshop. The problem is that you want a spell removed because you don't use it. How about you simply don't use it? Is that so hard? What is compelling you to be opposed to it at that point beyond depriving us of having the spell? Seems quite selfish to me.

[*]Faerie Fire forces combat; ergo accomplishes all the things you illustrate moonfire can do.

Moonfire deals damage, has a different visual and a different sound; ergo does not accomplish what Faerie Fire does.
I'd mention the 6 second cooldown of FF in Cat Form, but it's besides the point since FF in caster has no cooldown.

[*]One can additionally advocate for the removal of a spell that he/she does not enjoy using.

I have a solution that won't deliberately take enjoyment of the game away from other players: don't use the spell.

I would hope the inherent hypocrisy of this statement illustrates its ineffectiveness. If this is not clear, please refer to the last bullet-point on the preceding list.

I would hope the inherent lack of thought behind this statement illustrates its futility. If this is not clear, please refer to the response to the last bullet-point on the preceding list.

- - - Updated - - -

These changes are amazing! There is not one ability on this list that should not be removed, with regard to:
- cc reduction
- ability pruning
- raid cd reduction

Druids will still feel unique.

Druids have some of the highest ability bloat in the game.
This is a good quality of life change. I will be happy not to have to bind the entirety of my keyboard and mouse come WOD.

These changes are terrible. There are many abilities on the list that should not be removed, with regard to:

-cc reduction
-ability pruning
-raid cd reduction

Druids will not feel as unique.
Druids have very very little ability bloat in game and are not ideal for new or inexperienced players. If you want a simple class may I suggest a Ret Paladin and not playing your druid?

Also,

I have a solution that won't deliberately take enjoyment of the game away from other players: don't use the spell.

[Legitstarz]

As a resto druid, loosing barkskin is major... I need that to survive stunlocks. I don't like guardian getting to keep a spell irrelevant to a bear. A resto druid uses plants and nature magic to heal and save people, so shouldn't we get to keep "bark"skin, and guardians can have whatever spell we get as the replacement for that and ursoc.

[gestapo]

As a resto druid, loosing barkskin is major... I need that to survive stunlocks. I don't like guardian getting to keep a spell irrelevant to a bear. A resto druid uses plants and nature magic to heal and save people, so shouldn't we get to keep "bark"skin, and guardians can have whatever spell we get as the replacement for that and ursoc.

More than anything it's the fact that we need a damage mitigation ability that can be used while stunned/feared. People don't seem to comprehend this is why we are unhappy losing a 20% DR Barkskin and gaining an additional charge of 70% DR SI.

[Deleted]

TBH, you loose 20% DR while CC'd but in the meantime, your health pool is doubled. That's a good tradeoff IMO, as long as it's fair when competing with other classes. I mean, I don't know how many other classes will have a DR that can trigger when CC'd but it could be nice to know where the loss of barskin is in this context.

[Enok]

These changes are terrible. There are many abilities on the list that should not be removed, with regard to:

-cc reduction
-ability pruning
-raid cd reduction

Druids will not feel as unique.
Druids have very very little ability bloat in game and are not ideal for new or inexperienced players. If you want a simple class may I suggest a Ret Paladin and not playing your druid?

Lol at pulling the experience card. You are very inexperienced or ignorant if you think Druids have little ability bloat.
- pvp Druids have the highest ability bloat in the game, especially pvp balance.
- are you implying that Druids should be the special snowflake class with extra abilities and complexity? For extra smart and experienced players such as yourself?
- more abilities = more complexity, however complexity does not necessarily = more fun. There is a limit where you have too many abilities and complexity the game becomes less fun for the average player.
Ie: league of legends is extremely simple and an extremely popular game (I'm not implying oversimplification of wow).
- excessive key bindings =/= fun

How will Druids be less unique? They still cast nature spells and shapeshift.
- will feral be too much like rogue, or balance too similar to arcane mage? Lol

- what abilities would you cut instead of these?

[gestapo]

TBH, you loose 20% DR while CC'd but in the meantime, your health pool is doubled. That's a good tradeoff IMO, as long as it's fair when competing with other classes. I mean, I don't know how many other classes will have a DR that can trigger when CC'd but it could be nice to know where the loss of barskin is in this context.

Health pools being doubled will mean less relative damage overall, including damage going out from us. I'm not sure how that justifies the removal of a spell that gave us a lot of utility. The trade off was that it was a lower DR spell (only 20%) but we gain active mitigation while cc, spell pushback, crit reduction. It was unique. Having a generic X % DR spell is just boring. I'd give up 1 charge of SI for barkskin back.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol at pulling the experience card. You are very inexperienced or ignorant if you think Druids have little ability bloat.

I didn't say that you were inexperienced or ignorant, but if you took such offense to it i'm guessing it hit pretty close to home
I don't have any problem with keybinding my druid abilities, I'm sorry if you are. Some bloat reduction was welcome, but they went too far. I suppose you can't see that.

- pvp Druids have the highest ability bloat in the game, especially pvp balance.

Arguable, but nothing wrong with that. Thoughtful pruning can help that. Not mindless removal of abilities.

- are you implying that Druids should be the special snowflake class with extra abilities and complexity? For extra smart and experienced players such as yourself?

Are you implying that you're excluded from the category above? Yes, druids should be the 'complex' class with more abilities. They always have been and it was a draw of the class.

- more abilities = more complexity, however complexity does not necessarily = more fun. There is a limit where you have too many abilities and complexity the game becomes less fun for the average player.
Ie: league of legends is extremely simple and an extremely popular game (I'm not implying oversimplification of wow).
- excessive key bindings =/= fun

I actually agree with that if you bother to read any of my posts. On the flip side, going to the other extreme =/= fun. I applaud abilities like shred/mangle and rake/pounce (despite the incarnation issue) being merged. I don't like not having hibernate, moonfire, roots, barkskin - for e.g. Soothe has much less use than hibernate (not enough to warrant its removal) but Hibernate got the axe.

Even average players were doing fine on druids. But above average players were rewarded because of its relative complexity. Making every class just as easy makes the game less diverse and boring. It wasn't even an issue in terms of balancing the class.

Sorry, LoL is a different game and cannot be used as a comparison with WoW.

How will Druids be less unique? They still cast nature spells and shapeshift.
- will feral be too much like rogue, or balance too similar to arcane mage? Lol

Less nature spells to cast? Less unique. Less fun. There was no issue of button bloat, all caster related spells fit on one bar.
Less abilities in bear? Less unique. Less fun. There was no issue of button bloat, all bear related spells fit on one bar.
Feral & Balance will be less compelling, yes. Whether you want to compare them to rogues & arcane mages is up to you. I prefer to compare it to its respective spec.

- what abilities would you cut instead of these?

Hard pressed to think of many but here is one:

Rebirth & Revive. Works as a battle rez when in combat, incurring that timer - works as a normal rez when out of combat. Cast time in combat can be shorter accordingly to match Rebirth.

Ravage/Shred/Mangle (forgot, 3 abilities into 1, not 2) & Rake/Pounce are good examples. Note that in all these abilities weren't actually removed. They were merged.

[Soultrigger]

I think we need to look at the macro side of things, what is blizzard trying to do? Some of the things are:

Remove CC
Remove Instant Casts
Remove Bloat

Most of our complaints about skills we are losing are either CC, either IC to reduce the bloat. Barkskin might be an issue, but I need to see how we compare to others at lv 100 wearing WoD gear, comparing to today there is no point. I do prefer Barkskin to another charge of SI, but alas, that is not on me to decide.

[Aseyhe]

Have they increased how much increased stamina Bear Form gives? If not isn't this the exact same as live because it's base off a percentage?

In Mists, you have 146663 base health which is not multiplied by bear form. This means you're actually getting only 25-33% extra health from bear form (depending on gear level). In Warlords, there's no longer any base health, so bear form always increases health by 40%.

[morislayer]

I think a lot of the argument is being degraded by the fluff. I'll be brief, then:

• Because of the removal of base health, the stamina buff from Bear Form translates to a pure hp % boost. This makes bear form an improved sponge from MoP.
• Lacerate bleed lasts only 15 seconds. Thrash bleed lasts 16 seconds, so you don't need lacerate if your intent is to keep people from stealthing from bear form. Bleeds don't keep people in combat.
• With the removal of might of ursoc and entangling roots/nature's grasp, renewal and mass entanglement value increases, respectively.
• I assume we will be seeing a bunch of additional changes to make things like moonfireless feral congruent with lunar inspiration and faeriefireless moonkins and trees congruent with faerie swarm. Guardian still has a clause in heart of the wild allowing bears to cast rejuvenation. Etc etc.
• There are 31 spells for feral in WoD not including the bear spells or potential talents.
• Roots are CCs. Not every CC has to be effective on everything. Hibernate works like that.
• This is a dictatorship. None of us are the dictator. Blizzard isn't making game design decisions based on player polls.
• Faerie Fire forces combat; ergo accomplishes all the things you illustrate moonfire can do.
• One can additionally advocate for the removal of a spell that he/she does not enjoy using.

-So Bear form is an improved sponge, great. This idea is exactly reminiscent to warriors going sword & board + defensive stance when focused. Their damage goes to nill. Unless Blizz is planning on making all classes defensive mechanisms = no dps, then this is a huge blow to all druid pvp. PVE, are you going to go bear form when your health gets below 20% or during a huge damage phase? Yes their still is CD's we have but NG, NS Cyclone, bark skin, ursoc all are gone. To date, only CW is the only effective defense & I would trade barkskin for that in a heart beat.

- Again different game play all will have to adapt, but bleeds / bear form is 2 GCD's in melee while FF is range. Do you expect all moonkins / resto to go bear form and run melee when there is a rogue?? Your biased towards feral in your opinions.

-Its alpha for all your other points. Not gonna say sky is falling till I experience first hand.

-I am advocating for these spells to stay in some form because I do enjoy using all of them in their current form.

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- pvp Druids have the highest ability bloat in the game, especially pvp balance.

Maybe they do in comparison but I quite enjoy Balance PVP as it stands. Off the top of my head the things leaving my bar are Ursoc, Barkskin, NG, NS, Symbiosis, FF, & Hibernate (I think dash is gone too, and tranq was, but reading notes it might be back). I haven't read the latest talent changes but nothing really "adds" to my bloat there. 5 of the tools I listed are defense.

If SI is castable while stunned or feared, then I'm good losing half of these, but they could have just merged Barkskin with Ursoc too.

[Keiyra]

If SI is castable while stunned or feared, then I'm good losing half of these, but they could have just merged Barkskin with Ursoc too.

At least as of the current WoD tooltip, its not castable stunned/feared etc.

[hullaballoonatic]

I have a solution that won't deliberately take enjoyment of the game away from other players: don't use the spell.

I am so disappointed by how often I see this argument. Using hibernate in the current meta is not a choice; it is an obligation. If you don't use hibernate in pvp, you are bad. So, someone who doesn't want to be bad but also dislikes using hibernate would advocate for its removal. I feel like this is the crucial understanding that you're missing which constantly leads you to call other people "selfish."

As a resto druid, loosing barkskin is major... I need that to survive stunlocks.

Healthpools are getting doubled. Blizzard is actively working to slow pvp burst. This is a better meta for surviving stunlocks than the current one in which you have barkskin.

- Again different game play all will have to adapt, but bleeds / bear form is 2 GCD's in melee while FF is range. Do you expect all moonkins / resto to go bear form and run melee when there is a rogue?? Your biased towards feral in your opinions.

I expect them to moonfire twice, since you now have pandamic, it will increase the duration to 21 seconds, which is longer than Faerie Fire's 20 second pvp duration. Also, moonkins/ferals don't have any bleed abilities, even the bear form ones.

Please show me a link to a list. I must have seen far fewer in the wowhead talent calculator.

Here we go! I decided to also mark the abilities that aren't strictly cat moves (ergo hybridy), since the apparent destruction of druid hybrid nature is a major concern.

• Wrath (hybrid)
• Rejuvenation (hybrid)
• Cat Form
• Ferocious Bite
• Shred
• Prowl
• Rake
• Bear Form (hybrid)
• Tiger's Fury
• Revive (hybrid)
• Teleport: Moonglade (hybrid)
• Travel Form
• Savage Roar
• Rip
• Remove Corruption (hybrid)
• Swipe
• Dash
• Healing Touch (hybrid)
• Faerie Fire (hybrid)
• Thrash
• Berserk (hybrid)
• Rebirth (hybrid)
• Survival Instincts (hybrid)
• Soothe (hybrid)
• Mark of the Wild (hybrid)
• Skull Bash (hybrid)
• Cyclone (hybrid)
• Maim
• Stampeding Roar (hybrid)

This list does not include talents, items, racials, or abilities that cannot be cast from cat form (i.e. bearform abilities). I would not personally have revive bound(it would be macrod with rebirth) or teleport: moongalde bound, but this is still a healthy list.

[Enok]

What's with all the hype over hibernate? Why would anyone care for its removal?

Hibernate is the most boring, mediocre, situational, un-iconic spell in the game.

- it is easily the first choice to sacrifice in the name of cc reduction
- it has next to 0 use in current mop pve of any form.
Raid cc, no
Cm/dungeon cc, no
Solo/quests, lol no (faceroll aoe), maybe if your in greens and pulling 2 elites and happeneds to be a beast or dragon
- very situational in pvp (against feral/hunter)
Removing hibernate makes feral more viable in arena
Cc a hunters pet whist going for kill

The fact that it's been in the game since vanilla or that Druids in wailing caverns cast it does not make it iconic.

If I didn't pvp on my Druid I wouldn't even bother putting this ability on my bars.

[Bearshield]

Druids have some of the highest ability bloat in the game.

I'm sorry, but do you even play a Druid at 90? Of all the classes in the game, Druid has NEVER been one I would have described as having high ability bloat. Every form has its own action bar and abilities have always been form specific. Now if you want to see true button bloat, check out Warlocks and Warriors...(no, I am not advocating the removal of buttons for either class before someone flames me for it. I am not a fan of 90% of the ability pruning I've seen so far)

[Daez]

Look at all the other classes..they have about 1/4 of changes that we have thus proving Blizz just getting sick of a "one-class-for-everything" class.

They also have about 1/4 the abilities that are usable in any given specialization. Imagine that!

They could step in on a whim and emergency SOMETHING (tank, heal, etc). Looking from these newest patch notes, they are making Druid just like any other class and so I'm finally done.

If only they would do something like give you duel spec where you can truly hit a button and not just half-arse fill another role but actually be designed for it. Hell, they are even giving druids shifting gear to go along with that button. That in and of itself should trump almost anything we get to complain about this expansion.

Another note, if you are cancelling for good then why are you still lurking on the forums. If you really want to cancel for good then stay far away from the forums, because the forums always bring you back into the game... its just the way it works.

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Quitting because you can't heal when you're the tank.boohoo ;( you'll be very missed

More like... quitting because you can't carry a group as easily when the main healer or main tank gets themselves killed.

Easy solution... don't group with healers or tanks that die that easily.

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I think I am really saddened. When a Druid chooses their spec now, they won't just be buffing up their favourite skills and play style, they will be doing so at the cost of everything else. If you are tanking a boss, then it won't make a difference in your niche role. But wow is more than boss fights. It's questing, exploring, dealing with world PvP gankers, solving problems...having fun.

Why should your class be the ONLY one in WoW that does not have this happen to them? Seriously?

Not to mention, its hard as hell to balance a class with that many abilities, and in interest of fairness, you need to keep all of the classes balanced.