Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Azrile]

Ok, between finding Brax´s old posts from 2006, and now reading James´s chat log with Jason.. I hope you guys realize this is not the normal way things work...

Jason offering to pay James via Paypal.. James´s reply ´I'm going to have to get one setup... Right now our only Paypal account is on my Mom's Bank Account. lol I just don't have any ID to be able to open a Bank Account! lol´ Lead developer on a game that raised 100k on Kickstarter still lives with his mom and doesn´t have his own back account nor ID.

Honestly, James posted a huge chat log, and except for the part where Jason blew up on MMORPG, he seemed at least normal to work with. His biggest problem was that he didn´t have enough technical knowledge and had to trust James on what to buy. James on the other hand, seemed like an OCD kid in a candy shop and every week was pointing to something new he needed to buy. Of course, how much financial responsibility do you expect from a 30 year old that still lives with his mother and doesn´t work. Seriously, Jason was an idiot about that.. as soon as James said all that stuff about his personal life, about not having an ID or a bank account, about living with his mom... how can you possibly by so stupid to take that guys advice on what you need to buy... The guy has probably never bought anything for himself his entire life.. of COURSE he is going to buy a lot of stupid crap.

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Apparently, someone else shared my suspicion.


from DarKPenguiN: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.../#post-3833707

You see, I disagree with this completely. It is obvious from the chat log that Jason was spending a lot of money hiring anyone that James recommended and buying a ton of crap that James recommended. Jason paid him $4k right away and bought him a gaming computer. The animator dude that swindled Jason was someone that James brought into the team. James posted that chat log, and the main thing it showed me was that all he did was beg for stuff to be bought and trying to convince Jason how necessary it was. As I was reading it, I couldn´t figure out why James had posted it because it did nothing but make him look like a little kid that needed daddy to buy him everything.

[dextersmith]

Ok, between finding Brax´s old posts from 2006, and now reading James´s chat log with Jason.. I hope you guys realize this is not the normal way things work...

Jason offering to pay James via Paypal.. James´s reply ´I'm going to have to get one setup... Right now our only Paypal account is on my Mom's Bank Account. lol I just don't have any ID to be able to open a Bank Account! lol´ Lead developer on a game that raised 100k on Kickstarter still lives with his mom and doesn´t have his own back account nor ID.

Honestly, James posted a huge chat log, and except for the part where Jason blew up on MMORPG, he seemed at least normal to work with. His biggest problem was that he didn´t have enough technical knowledge and had to trust James on what to buy. James on the other hand, seemed like an OCD kid in a candy shop and every week was pointing to something new he needed to buy. Of course, how much financial responsibility do you expect from a 30 year old that still lives with his mother and doesn´t work. Seriously, Jason was an idiot about that.. as soon as James said all that stuff about his personal life, about not having an ID or a bank account, about living with his mom... how can you possibly by so stupid to take that guys advice on what you need to buy... The guy has probably never bought anything for himself his entire life.. of COURSE he is going to buy a lot of stupid crap.

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You see, I disagree with this completely. It is obvious from the chat log that Jason was spending a lot of money hiring anyone that James recommended and buying a ton of crap that James recommended. Jason paid him $4k right away and bought him a gaming computer. The animator dude that swindled Jason was someone that James brought into the team. James posted that chat log, and the main thing it showed me was that all he did was beg for stuff to be bought and trying to convince Jason how necessary it was. As I was reading it, I couldn´t figure out why James had posted it because it did nothing but make him look like a little kid that needed daddy to buy him everything.

I see your points and must agree. Was he formally educated, owner of a business, and getting government support without ID and bank account? No way. I suspect mom's bank account is used to cheat benefits/taxes.

They both bailed, is James Teddy?

[Taojnhy]

So, an interesting thing:

Appleton announces that everything Greedmonger related is being handed over to this indie company called Interdiction Studios.

There is very little info about this studio, much less who its people are, aside from the fact that they are currently working on a game called Limb. According to their Twitter feed, Interdiction Studios is based in Cincinnati, OH.

Coincidentally, Cincinnati is where Appleton is as well.

Considering how short the turnaround time was between Proctor's move and Appleton's announcement, I have more than a slight suspicion that Appleton is pretty involved with IS. Could moving Greedmonger from ECO to IS simply be a delaying tactic by Appleton?

[Azrile]

So, an interesting thing:

Appleton announces that everything Greedmonger related is being handed over to this indie company called Interdiction Studios.

There is very little info about this studio, much less who its people are, aside from the fact that they are currently working on a game called Limb. According to their Twitter feed, Interdiction Studios is based in Cincinnati, OH.

Coincidentally, Cincinnati is where Appleton is as well.

Considering how short the turnaround time was between Proctor's move and Appleton's announcement, I have more than a slight suspicion that Appleton is pretty involved with IS. Could moving Greedmonger from ECO to IS simply be a delaying tactic by Appleton?

It probably creates some legal wiggly room, and as you said delay tactics. Does this new company saying ´hey, we will provide the KS rewards´ mean that Appleton is off the hook in the eye of Kickstarter? And then can the new company NOT deliver the rewards and say ´hey, we never did the KS, we are not responsible for their promises´..we were just doing them a favor.

This part of it sound a lot like the crap Yog tried to pull with his little scam. He promoted the hell out of a KS, got most of the money from it, then turned around and pinned it on someone else and tried to be the good guy by talking another company into providing their game for free.

In both cases, Yog and Appleton hired some nobody with no experience and mental issues to be the lead developer... they both handled promotion... they both were in charge of the money side of things... and they both tried to wash their hands of it as soon as it blew up and blame it on the people they hired.

[dextersmith]

So, an interesting thing:

Appleton announces that everything Greedmonger related is being handed over to this indie company called Interdiction Studios.

There is very little info about this studio, much less who its people are, aside from the fact that they are currently working on a game called Limb. According to their Twitter feed, Interdiction Studios is based in Cincinnati, OH.

Coincidentally, Cincinnati is where Appleton is as well.

Considering how short the turnaround time was between Proctor's move and Appleton's announcement, I have more than a slight suspicion that Appleton is pretty involved with IS. Could moving Greedmonger from ECO to IS simply be a delaying tactic by Appleton?

Jeff Clark

CEO and Founder at Interdiction Studios

Current: Interdiction Studios LLC

Previous: US Navy

Education: Milford High School

Source: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6623441
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-clark/29/59/666

No delay tactic, he's taking the fall.

To be completely honest, I think 'ol JP here was duped into total culpability for this project failure and jason Appleton pocketed the money and used this guy as the fall guy for what looks to have been a pretty well orchestrated scam on the part of jason Apppleton who disappeared after getting the Kickstart money and then starting direct funding at his website

from DarKPenguiN: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.../#post-3833707

And Jason might get free progress out of this.

Appleton:
http://www.greedmonger.com/forum/sho...ll=1#post29929

In further discussion with Interdiction Studios we have come to an agreement on the future of Greed Monger.
Interdiction Studios is made up of a 10 person team including 3 programmers, 3 artists, 2 composers a
server admin and the project coordinator/artist/programmer and they will be
taking over Greed Monger, all licenses associated ith GM, all assets, script and associated progress
made thus far and continue to finish the project under the agreement that once completed, they will
honor all KS backers even if Greed Monger is later renamed and rebranded at their option.

Interdiction Studios has set the goal of completing GM by years end based on what we have discussed
as having been done, but this is also dependent on what James Proctor delivers, if he does.

Should Interdiction Studios fail to complete the game in a timely fashion, Interdiction Studios has agreed
to return all assets, licenses and associated materials as well as all work they have completed up to that
point so as to ensure there is no time lost in the progress of Greed Mongers development regardless of the
final outcome as it relates to Interdiction Studios.

[Taojnhy]

I don't think Proctor was duped into anything, honestly. That's not to say Appleton is innocent, far the hell from it, but after reading those chat logs (that Proctor himself posted) I think Proctor was just as, if not -more-, responsible for the many failures of GM.

Perhaps "responsible" isn't the right word since technically Appleton, as the top person in charge of the money and project is ultimately responsible. Nonetheless, Proctor's actions and lies had the most direct impact on GM's failings.

As for getting free progress out of IS, that's what I'm saying:

Best case scenario: IS actually makes GM over the next 1-5 years.
Worst case scenario: IS doesn't make GM at all.

Appleton is poised to benefit either way, because if IS doesn't make the game, Appleton still got a reprieve in the interim to further distance himself from GM and/or come up with a new delaying tactic.

Honestly, there's no real reason for anyone to think IS will get much, if anything, done with GM; they've been a studio since (according to Clark's linkedin profile - thanks for finding that Dextersmith) 2009 and have nothing beyond a pretty, but devoid of info, website and a game concept with a ten second video clip called Limb.

[Kyanion]

Wish there was a comprehensive GM thread so I could see things as they happened in the proper order. I feel like I have no idea what it is you guys are talking about but it really sounds like something I'd love to read about! I just don't know where to start with those threads that have been posted.

[Taojnhy]

Wish there was a comprehensive GM thread so I could see things as they happened in the proper order. I feel like I have no idea what it is you guys are talking about but it really sounds like something I'd love to read about! I just don't know where to start with those threads that have been posted.

This is where I got started: The RPGCodex thread.

That link contains a lot of info, including the "Everything is going great guys" from Proctor (the lead dev of GM) one day to "I quit, I'm done with everything GM-related" a day or two later. Also contains a massive wall of text in the for of chat logs between Proctor and Appleton for the most part on page 7.

[Azrile]

Interdiction Studios has set the goal of completing GM by years end based on what we have discussed
as having been done, but this is also dependent on what James Proctor delivers, if he does.

People are just stupid for believing any of this. In 3 years, James Proctor created a video that was as bad, if not worse than anything ToA created. Now suddenly this new dev team, which in 4 yrs has not produced anything, not even a hint of a game ( but hey, they are doing a crowdfunder soon), is going to take what James barely did and create GreedMonger in less than a year. Never going to happen.

Let me tell you exactly what this is. Interdiction Studios is getting a ton of stuff ( all the stuff James had bought with the $100k), and in exchange they are taking on the responsibility of having to mail out a few hundred t-shirts and other crap that was promised to GM KS donors. Since there is NOTHING about IS´s game in 4 years, they can just say ´hey, this is the old GreedMonger´.. Also to point out that IS is a company located where Jason is... more than likely they were working together before this. You don´t just make this deal in less than 24 hours after James quit.

It is just insane that people are praising IS for taking on this project.... The only think they are taking on is all the software licensing. This is a bunch of nobodies who have never made a game... but hey, there are 10 of them..

[Taojnhy]

On a side note it looks like one of our favorite "developers" is playing alongside us:

The future looks quite grim for Greed Monger today, as its lead programmer, James Proctor, announced on the game’s social media accounts [the Facebook post has been deleted as of this morning -Eds.] that he is leaving the project and that a planned update is now canceled. His departure means that the game effectively has no dedicated team.

Proctor pointed fans to a forum thread on RPG Codex in which he attempts to explain what’s been going on behind the scenes of this crowdfunded MMO, including the reason in-development screenshots looked so much worse than the ones posted on Kickstarter. “When it came time to start paging in the terrain at the view distances we needed Unity’s performance just wasn’t good enough… So we had to rework the terrain,” he posted.

As the sole programmer, Proctor was working for free on the promise of being paid a share when the game went live. He asserts that Lead Designer Jason Appleton was pressuring him to stay: “It’s been a long time in the making… The last couple of years working on GM hasn’t been much fun since Jason threatened me with a lawsuit if I left. I now was being forced in my eyes to be there, instead of working on it because it was something I enjoyed.”

[Source: Facebook (now deleted), RPG Codex, #2. Thanks to Xanward for the tip!]

[Azrile]

Wish there was a comprehensive GM thread so I could see things as they happened in the proper order. I feel like I have no idea what it is you guys are talking about but it really sounds like something I'd love to read about! I just don't know where to start with those threads that have been posted.

Quick summary

GreedMonger was one of the games that hit Kickstarter very early. Somewhat like ToA, they had a nice website with some interesting ideas for a game, mainly about land ownership. They did a KS for $40k, but ended up with $90k. This was 2012 I believe. Jason Appleton was basically the money-man with no experience making games, so he hired James (for whatever reason).

Two things happened in the years that followed. First off is that some internet sleuths looked into Jason Appleton´s past, and found that he was basically a habitual con artist with a long list of less-than-upfront business ideas that were very questionable. At the same time, GM started added media to their website.. and a lot of Unity people quickly pointed out that everything they were showing was exactly from the Unity Store.

There was a big crazy event on MMORPG where their forum went crazy with people calling the game a scam etc ( very similar to this thread I guess)..there were people posting links to their stuff on the Unity store, there was a ton of stuff about Jason´s other business. In the end, Jason went postal and literally threatened to sue everyone, he went directly after one poster and released that persons personal information, and later threatened to sue MMORPG.com and Wurm. MMORPG.com deleted everything, including all forums related to GM.

There was also a big issue with the rewards from the KS, which were physical items. Appleton for years has has delayed, lied and just stalled in regards to what happened with them. At one point saying that they were all in his garage. Three years later, and nobody has received their KS rewards despite being told that they were purchased right after the KS ended.

The stuff about the Unity Store continued this whole time. James repeatedly posted update videos and screenshots that were EXACTLY what can be found in the asset store. He was buying stuff, installing it, and taking screenshots and saying it was in his game. And to bring it back to ToA a bit, he was using the same Atavism housing construction system as ToA.

The end started in January, when James finally uploaded an ´ingame´ video that was horrible. Nobody could understand why the screenshots from 3 years ago were 100 times better than what he was showing in the video. ( Answer - because the screenshots were never from the game, they were just from Unity assets demo scenes like I talked about a few days ago). Once the video was up, James caved under the pressure, and last week started the finger pointing between James and Appleton.

James released all of the skype chats from the past 3 years in hopes to clear his name. But in my opinion, while Appleton is no saint, the chats clearly show that james was beyond incompetent and literally is mentally ill and living off of disability for the mental illness. The chats show countless times where James begged Jason to buy stuff that was ´needed´ for the game, and then turn around a few days later and say ´ah, this doesn´t do what I thought it did´.. this included a lot or open-source stuff that is very expensive. James is similar to the ToA devs in that he kept jumping to different engines and systems and thought there was always something he could buy that would magically turn it into a MMORPG. But the big thing the chats do show is that Jason was spending a ton of money on the game, and considering that for a year he was paying a bunch of people, and on top of that all the software that James had him buy, I really would not doubt it if he did spend the $100k on the game. Just in the chat log you constantly see Appleton buying stuff for $100´s of dollars that James ´needs´and a bunch of the stuff was probably a few thousand, including Atavism open-source.

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On a side note it looks like one of our favorite "developers"

yep, he is probably associated with all of these semi-scam kickstarters in one way or another. You do a KS, and instantly these guys are emailing you to help promote your KS for a cut. If he wasn´t involved with GM, then he is involved with a competitor and will try to spin this his way.

[Kyanion]

Ah it is a real shame if mmorpg.com deleted all of those posts people calling it a scam, I'd have loved to have read through those! I'll check out the information posted as I'm curious about all of it while we wait on ToA to make their next move.

[Taojnhy]

It's interesting that James, while ostensibly working on GM, has also been working on the following:

UniVerse MMO Framework Kit (On Steam's Greenlight as well in the Concept phase) Website for UniVerse is here.
Asset Streaming plugin UniStream
CityLife MoRPG
Community Lobby based Online Survival Game (which apparently doesn't have a unique name)
Galactic Conquest: Online
Interactive Opensource MMO Engine as developer "empirepro"

Don't get me wrong, having other projects is good and healthy, but at some point you run into a conflict of interest with regards to resource allocation (namely time spent in this case as well as other people's money).

[Azrile]

It's interesting that James, while ostensibly working on GM, has also been working on the following:

UniVerse MMO Framework Kit (On Steam's Greenlight as well in the Concept phase) Website for UniVerse is here.
Asset Streaming plugin UniStream
CityLife MoRPG
Community Lobby based Online Survival Game (which apparently doesn't have a unique name)

Don't get me wrong, having other projects is good and healthy, but at some point you run into a conflict of interest with regards to resource allocation (namely time spent in this case as well as other people's money).

ohh shiney

But yeah, he is one of those people who never finished anything.

The problem he is trying to solve is just silly, and one of the things that are wrong with a lot of players ideas. One of the first things that gets asked ´how big is your world´.. and of course, huge is the best answer. So inexperienced people try to build these huge, boring worlds with no character. In the end, it is not more work because painting a generic map takes no time. The problem is that the bigger the world, the further you get away from 0,0,0 the origin, and the further you get away from 0,0,0 the more likely you are to have floating point errors. Once you get 10 kilometers away, you start getting all kinda of graphic and movement glitches. Really, any world greater than 80 square kilomenters is going to have issues. But this is no issue, because even games like Skyrim are less than half that size and use the Y axis to make the world feel bigger.

But the kiddies, they want 10,000 square miles so they have to do all this crazy stuff, which doesn´t work, and then they blame Unity.

[dextersmith]

I don't think Proctor was duped into anything, honestly. That's not to say Appleton is innocent, far the hell from it, but after reading those chat logs (that Proctor himself posted) I think Proctor was just as, if not -more-, responsible for the many failures of GM.

Perhaps "responsible" isn't the right word since technically Appleton, as the top person in charge of the money and project is ultimately responsible. Nonetheless, Proctor's actions and lies had the most direct impact on GM's failings.

As for getting free progress out of IS, that's what I'm saying:

Best case scenario: IS actually makes GM over the next 1-5 years.
Worst case scenario: IS doesn't make GM at all.

Appleton is poised to benefit either way, because if IS doesn't make the game, Appleton still got a reprieve in the interim to further distance himself from GM and/or come up with a new delaying tactic.

Honestly, there's no real reason for anyone to think IS will get much, if anything, done with GM; they've been a studio since (according to Clark's linkedin profile - thanks for finding that Dextersmith) 2009 and have nothing beyond a pretty, but devoid of info, website and a game concept with a ten second video clip called Limb.

From what I understand of that quote, Jason gets it all back in Dec. 2015 if it's still incomplete with free progress and Interdiction Studios footing the expense of honoring backers.

[derium]

heya, I'm Greed Mongers ex-Community Manager. I've been digging into this A LOT. Interdiction studios just dropped Greed Monger. I'm applying as much pressure as I can.

Demanding our money:
watch?v=UpNjOG0dF-I

Interdiction Studios takeover:
watch?v=isX0AqPaP7w

Interdiction backing out less than a day later:
watch?v=IMUOcm_F8o0


it's not letting me post links yet. I've been trying to call out whoever is responsible for this on YouTube videos, there are the video IDs, sorry, best I can supply.

[dextersmith]

Wish there was a comprehensive GM thread so I could see things as they happened in the proper order. I feel like I have no idea what it is you guys are talking about but it really sounds like something I'd love to read about! I just don't know where to start with those threads that have been posted.

Lawsuit threats by Jason:

To MMORPG poster
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cf...d-Monger-.html

To MMORPG
http://mmofallout.com/greed-monger-t...game-unlisted/

To James Proctor
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6622640

GM fun discussion/he bought fake FB likes (Nov. 13, 2012)!
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...t-Removed.html (GM history like toa's!)
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...s/post/6196893
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cf.../425457/page/1
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cf...396538#6396538

MMORPG Letter to Mr. Appleton
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...-Appleton.html
Response
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/382157

Pompous interview with Jason discussing viagra and epic fails


pissed fans' demands


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heya, I'm Greed Mongers ex-Community Manager. I've been digging into this A LOT. Interdiction studios just dropped Greed Monger. I'm applying as much pressure as I can.

Demanding our money:
watch?v=UpNjOG0dF-I

Interdiction Studios takeover:
watch?v=isX0AqPaP7w

Interdiction backing out less than a day later:
watch?v=IMUOcm_F8o0


it's not letting me post links yet. I've been trying to call out whoever is responsible for this on YouTube videos, there are the video IDs, sorry, best I can supply.

Are you James Proctor?

Concerning Interdiction Studios, I don't trust CEOs with just high school credits. Did he even graduate? He can't be smart dealing with Jason.

[derium]

Are you James Proctor?

Concerning Interdiction Studios, I don't trust CEOs with just high school credits. Did he even graduate? He can't be smart dealing with Jason.

no, I'm Derium, the guy in the second video that you posted to

[Azrile]

From what I understand of that quote, Jason gets it all back in Dec. 2015 if it's still incomplete with free progress and Interdiction Studios footing the expense of honoring backers.

Interdiction has already backed out. I can´t believe they ever even thought about it. In 3 years, James accomplished NOTHING.. His January video is about as garbage as garbage can be. I am not saying he did no work, but all the work he did was changing stuff back and forth to the point where he wasted 3 years and ended up with a piece of crap that honestly, makes ToA look like WOW.

I mentioned this with ToA, and it holds true for whoever takes over this project.. What James has on the server now is mostly worthless. It would take someone more time to figure out what the hell he did, then it would take them to actually do it themselves ( Same as what ToA has dead on their server). The only thing that has value is some of the software licences they bought, but even then it is pretty useless since I doubt very much anyone can use Atavism to make a MMORPG, with or without source code.

Derium, I am sorry, but you don´t have too much credibility in my book simple because you are friends with James and dislike Jason. if you really wanted to investigate this mess, yes, it is great to slam Jason for the KS rewards, but anyone who read James´chat logs cannot honestly say that Jason ´took off´ with the money. He and James constantly are talking about paying people they hired, there are numerous mentions BY JAMES of where Jason bought a crapload of stuff. I am not saying Jason spent all the money, but it is pretty obvious that he did not just pocket the money and run.. he spent at least the first few years buying James almost whatever he wanted. IMHO, if you want to slam Jason, it should be for hiring someone who is mentally ill, who never completed a project, who lives in his mothers house and obviously has the maturity of most 12-15 year olds. James is the one who wasted the KS money, probably more than Jason taking off with it.

it really is the same as Yog.. at some point you have to say ok, you are the money man, but why the hell didn´t you even do a bit of background check on your ´lead developer´ before you hired him. I said a million times in this thread, before you tell me your crazy ideas about a great MMORPG, show me your asteroids clone.

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mmo-champ must be thrilled, we are now getting google alerts for two different games!!

[Kyanion]

Yeah this is so weird seeing the ToA thread turn into GM/ToA lol