Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[8bithamster]

Snark reply? Meh, wasn't aimed as such, more a general statement of tuesday morning boredom.

While I agree with you that contacting Azrile directly was the right way to do things. No matter what any outsider here does, will be taken wrong. Everything will be bashed to bits. Why? Because that's all people can do in this topic.
Yes that guy can be Developer X or Y in disguise, or NSA in disguise, but hell, we don't know that

[Azrile]

I don´t think this one is a devalt, I think the last one was. And I really didn´t even think before sharing it. I have no motive at all. just something to talk about.

Did the devs contact this guy to get a sympathy piece written after their second failed KS? Is this part of their new plan?
or is this a guy who got a hold of the mass spamming the devs were doing as they launched the second KS.

[8bithamster]

Everything is possible. We've seen stranger things in this topic

My current theory:

Everyone new is an eggplant with enough intelligence to type unless proven otherwise!

[khalltusk]

Everything is possible. We've seen stranger things in this topic

My current theory:

Everyone new is an eggplant with enough intelligence to type unless proven otherwise!

That is not a theory, its a belief XD

On topic, wow appears some more popcorn worthy posts have been made. Wonder why this journalist is contacting you now? Would be interesting to see if the guy follows it up or puts out an article.

[Azrile]

well he gave no contact information, just his name. I did a Google search and found some of his articles, also some stuff about a guy from France who committed some big fraud, was arrested in France and is now hiding in the UK(not the same guy obviously).

Who knows. I wouldn´t find it unreasonable that Brax is trying to use PR again instead of, you know, actually making a game.

Also, twiddly dumb and twiddly dumber seem to have figured out in skype chat that it probably isn´t worthwhile to chat with us here.. instead of, you know, actually making a game.

[lawow74]

I love how pathetic some people have become in this thread.

Someone wants an interview? Let's google everything we can about this person and bash him. Why? Because we can!

And people wonder why this thread is seen as the sewer of MMO-champion

If a website's idea of news is an expose on feeder fetishism, that sounds like the sewer to me, not this thread.

[khalltusk]

well he gave no contact information, just his name. I did a Google search and found some of his articles, also some stuff about a guy from France who committed some big fraud, was arrested in France and is now hiding in the UK(not the same guy obviously).

Who knows. I wouldn´t find it unreasonable that Brax is trying to use PR again instead of, you know, actually making a game.

Also, twiddly dumb and twiddly dumber seem to have figured out in skype chat that it probably isn´t worthwhile to chat with us here.. instead of, you know, actually making a game.

They do seem to have gone quiet. Wonder if their "server" is now finally up.

This thread has some positives, its raised awareness of certain companies/"games" to be wary of and also shown me unity which is a lovely little set of tools

[Azrile]

They do seem to have gone quiet. Wonder if their "server" is now finally up.

This thread has some positives, its raised awareness of certain companies/"games" to be wary of and also shown me unity which is a lovely little set of tools

I am doing townfolk AI at the moment in Unity. Anyone want a character in a game you will never play named after you? I´ve got like 250 names I have to come up with, and watching old reruns of Friends is not giving me enough ideas.

[khalltusk]

Sure, Khall Jericho pls

What sort of game are you making atm if I may ask?

[Nihilan]

"Seen" by those who advocate and support shady business practices in vidja gaming of course. You jerks are making it more difficult for hard working and creative Entrepreneurs to separate fools from their moneys.

Its downright anti-capitalist is what it is.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/04

[lawow74]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/04

I LOL'ed, thanks for sharing that.

[Kotori125]

I think this thread has demonstrated more of shady business practices, rather than specific companies (although those specific companies serve as examples). If an audience questions a company on their business practices, we do not want to see: insults at those people, retorts towards those people, the questions are 'misinformation', threatening lawsuits at those people, spoon-feeding words rather than actual evidence, never actually answering the questions, etc. Lots of things that would just raise even more questions, including the legitimacy of the developed game. That is what I believe this thread demonstrates (and why it is so entertaining at times).

[Post]

And people wonder why this thread is seen as the sewer of MMO-champion

1. Who the hell is wondering why this thread is seen as the sewer of MMO-Champion?

2. Who the hell (other than you) sees this thread as the sewer of MMO-Champion?

I feel like you just threw that in there without any thought, like some sort of reflex comment. Sorta like how ToA worshipers throw around "troll" instantly and at every situation, no matter what the details of the situation are.

[draykorinee]

We all know 8bit is making shit up just to stir it up, no one thinks this thread is the sewer.

[lawow74]

Last post from Brax saying 'we have a plan but we're not ready to reveal it yet' was about 3 weeks ago. Meantime we get to laugh at another group of incompetent dipshits who took idealistic people for large amounts of money, though it seems they finally got it through their heads to shut up and either flail helplessly at their 'game' or go into hiding.

[Azrile]

I may be mistaken but I don't think you can send PM's as a new account holder here. IIRC, you need to have a number of posts first. That could well be the reason for the method of contact.

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I am not so sure. For my part, I have only popped in here a few times recently because it felt like a bunch of people patting themselves on the back for a job well done. I saw no real proof of scamming (ToA) only allegations. I would have preferred if the thread had not stooped to that level. It's one thing (and justifiably so) to accuse ToA of being incompetent and useless. It's another thing to accuse them of being scammers. The project had no chance of being completed but that would be because they were way out of their depth.

Ah, I did not know that about new accounts, that would make sense.

Yep, and I completely disagree with you about scamming. We have debated that endlessly in this thread. In the end, they completely misrepresented their own skills, and their progress for years to their fans in order to open the cash-shop. Not only did they make themselves sound like real devs ( even in this thread), but on their forums for the past 12 years they faked progress. From 2012 until they opened the Cash-shop in 2014, they talked about making progress and getting things done, and they actually had done nothing. Even Brax´s silly posts about driving with his wife and the comments about the Eagle AI were meant to do nothing except make people think he was a real developer that knew how to program... all while the cash-shop was open.

Have you seen their MMORPG.com forum in the last 8 months. Before I started this thread, there were dozens of dev-alts and accounts run by their ´social media team´ filling up MMORPG.com to the point where ToA was ´one of the most anticipated games´.. After I pointed out we were gathering IP addresses.. nothing... right now, the last 30 threads started on MMORPG. are from 1 person, and almost nobody replies to them. Using dev-alts to fake interest in your game, and using dev-alts to make it seem like dozens of people are buying stuff from your cash-shop.. sorry, that is scamming. They were misleading people in order to get them to buy stuff from the cash-shop.

[grahamtempleton]

Hi guys. Just noticed this discussion. I'm, uh, me, and I'm not Brax or any other developer. I just tweeted to you from my twitter account to make that much clear.

Anyway, if you're not up to chat that's fine. Just thought a PM would be a better way to reach out than an open post (like this one . Couldn't send a PM until I had 10 posts though, and didn't want to spam. Anyway, as I said I'd take whatever mode of communication you were comfortable with. I don't believe I ever requested any personal info.

Let me know, and if it doesn't come together that's fine. I do think the piece would be less of a "sympathy piece" though, with more perspective from you guys.

Regardless, no hard feelings! There's a remarkable amount of feeling around this game, on all sides. People have been a little reluctant to talk from all over. :\

[Kyanion]

I won't get much into the details other than to say that I can give you examples of large corporates that exaggerate their progress and overstate their products and their skills. Take MSDOS 6 as an example. MS announced that the product was almost complete where they hadn't even started it. Most adverts on TV will go into great depths about the features/benefits that their new product has and completely ignore the down sides. Think smoking adverts from 5 years back. I just think it would have been far better to attack them on a fair front with things like incompetence and the skills necessary to accomplish the goal. Those are more than sufficient. People seemed to be fairly happy with the progress that Teddy (if I remember the name correctly) made but all that progress was completely useless because they hadn't even started looking at any serious number of clients. An increase on that front would have made it necessary to throw everything away.

Not that it makes the practice of doing so okay though. The difference is though these 2 games used crowdfunding methods (2 KS for ToA 1 for GM) and took fan donations to make this thing happen. It isn't like I'm donating money for a project that Microsoft is still working on instead I am buying a finished product (despite how buggy/bad it may be on release but that is a whole different story.)

[Taojnhy]

I won't get much into the details other than to say that I can give you examples of large corporates that exaggerate their progress and overstate their products and their skills. Take MSDOS 6 as an example. MS announced that the product was almost complete where they hadn't even started it. Most adverts on TV will go into great depths about the features/benefits that their new product has and completely ignore the down sides. Think smoking adverts from 5 years back. I just think it would have been far better to attack them on a fair front with things like incompetence and the skills necessary to accomplish the goal. Those are more than sufficient. People seemed to be fairly happy with the progress that Teddy (if I remember the name correctly) made but all that progress was completely useless because they hadn't even started looking at any serious number of clients. An increase on that front would have made it necessary to throw everything away.

One very important distinction here though is that in your examples, there either was an already existing product or the means to bring one forward with an established, self-funded company. But, as Kyanion pointed out, that behavior isn't honest either and can't really be justification. It's not much different from saying, "Well, sure Politician A is a proven liar, but so what; Politicians B, C and D were demonstrable liars too!"

[Azrile]

Hi guys. Just noticed this discussion. I'm, uh, me, and I'm not Brax or any other developer. I just tweeted to you from my twitter account to make that much clear.

Anyway, if you're not up to chat that's fine. Just thought a PM would be a better way to reach out than an open post (like this one . Couldn't send a PM until I had 10 posts though, and didn't want to spam. Anyway, as I said I'd take whatever mode of communication you were comfortable with. I don't believe I ever requested any personal info.

Let me know, and if it doesn't come together that's fine. I do think the piece would be less of a "sympathy piece" though, with more perspective from you guys.

Regardless, no hard feelings! There's a remarkable amount of feeling around this game, on all sides. People have been a little reluctant to talk from all over. :\

Ok, I apologize, I did not know this site had a rule against sending PMs if you had less than 10 posts. Also was not aware your original request was sent via twitter, it was forwarded to me through a PM on this site.

I think you are a little late to the game. There is certainly little emotions on their side. In the past week, their entire forums have had 2 people who have even posted and many of their former supporters are now posting in this thread. On our side, we are just waiting for the final announcement that the game is officially dead. Their developers may talk a mean game about being emotionally involved and how much they cared, but it is just words. These ´devs´ have been marketing this game for 12 years, but yet none of them bothered to learn anything about how to make a game in those 12 years. All they did was post on forums and ask for money.

Overall, I think you will have a hard time writing an accurate story unless you are willing to do a lot of research. The ´game´ they have been developing has been in development for 12 years ( although without any actual work done on the game until the last 7 months or so). You would also have to really understand Unity and Hero Engine to understand part of the scam/lies/deceit that they have been doing.

As far as the human interest side to your story... people who wanted to make the game of their dreams, but came to realize it was impossible... that story can be written about 10,000 developers on Unity. The difference is that those 10,000 developers actually put some of their own sweat into the project before they realize the scope is too big for them. The developers of ToA put no sweat into their game other than creating a cash-shop on their website. They raised $70,000 from their fans, they paid 1 person $30,000 of that to do his best for a few months... All of their éffort´ was nothing but words on some forums. 12 years, and they never attempted to learn or do anything related to actually making their game.

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People seemed to be fairly happy with the progress that Teddy (if I remember the name correctly) made but all that progress was completely useless because they hadn't even started looking at any serious number of clients.

False. If you don´t want to talk about them using fake accounts on their own forums.. then we won´t. But in that case.. the fact is that once Teddy started posting progress and actual gameplay videos, the traffic on their forums decreased by 90%. There were more positive reviews when Brax posted a video about ´the making of an eyepatch´ then there were to the videos Teddy was releasing a few months ago. If you don´t want to admit they were faking posters on their forums, then we will simply play by your rules... and say the game lost 90% of it´s support because of the actual development of the game. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You say Teddy´s work was well received, and I say it wasn´t because it caused 90% of their forum posters to disappear.