1. #5521
    2002-2007 they showed nothing.. despite the fact that as far back as 2002 they talked about basically having stuff done already. They never would, and never did tell you what engine they were using, and what engine they switched to.. because that would have allowed you guys to do some research. He constantly talked about ´we´ as the people who were actually in the game.. but at every turn, basically even the deepest fans never saw anything...who was the ´we´.. he talked about getting feedback on stuff they had implemented... from whom? when even guys like you and Talon did not see anything. You really think he had a customer service group in training?...for a game that was in pre-alpha and never played by anyone?

    And you say his biggest mistake being some minor thing he did with KS#2? There never was a game for like 13 years... they were non-developers with a terrible history.. It doesn´t matter what they did in 2015, and doesn´t matter if they had only asked for $100,000 they were not going to get funded. They could have given away the game at the $10 level and they wouldn´t have gotten funded. Everywhere they posted, every fansite they had their social media site spam, they got ridiculed. Not just for being idiot non-developers, but for their ´innovative ideas´. Once I pointed out that they were devalting their forums and MMORPG.com... suddenly,all their crazy support stopped... because there NEVER was real support for this game The entire concept would never fly as a MMORPG, let alone as a MMORPG that needed pre-funding to even be built. IF these guys magically built ToA overnight, you still wouldn´t have more than a thousand players who buy it and that would not even maintain 1 Teddy to keep the game alive.

    it is just frustrating that you guys keep defending these idiots like they were just some nice guys who got in over their heads. They faked a game for 13 years, and the only tiny bit that was built was because they suckered a few people into hiring Teddy. They freakin said they were developing the game from 2002 to 2006.. and there is NOTHING. How do you have a team of 20+ people working for 4 years and not be able to show anything but a few screenshots that aren´t even a game. And again they said they were developing the game from 2012-2013 in Hero Engine... and again.. NOTHING.. A generic map with a spider ( that someone imported for them) chasing a default human. Read the crap they were writing from 2002-2006, and again from 2012-2013.. and then watch that hero engine video again... but hey, they are nice guys, they would never lie to you.

  2. #5522
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    2002-2007 they showed nothing.. despite the fact that as far back as 2002 they talked about basically having stuff done already. They never would, and never did tell you what engine they were using, and what engine they switched to.. because that would have allowed you guys to do some research. He constantly talked about ´we´ as the people who were actually in the game.. but at every turn, basically even the deepest fans never saw anything...who was the ´we´.. he talked about getting feedback on stuff they had implemented... from whom? when even guys like you and Talon did not see anything. You really think he had a customer service group in training?...for a game that was in pre-alpha and never played by anyone?

    And you say his biggest mistake being some minor thing he did with KS#2? There never was a game for like 13 years... they were non-developers with a terrible history.. It doesn´t matter what they did in 2015, and doesn´t matter if they had only asked for $100,000 they were not going to get funded. They could have given away the game at the $10 level and they wouldn´t have gotten funded. Everywhere they posted, every fansite they had their social media site spam, they got ridiculed. Not just for being idiot non-developers, but for their ´innovative ideas´. Once I pointed out that they were devalting their forums and MMORPG.com... suddenly,all their crazy support stopped... because there NEVER was real support for this game The entire concept would never fly as a MMORPG, let alone as a MMORPG that needed pre-funding to even be built. IF these guys magically built ToA overnight, you still wouldn´t have more than a thousand players who buy it and that would not even maintain 1 Teddy to keep the game alive.

    it is just frustrating that you guys keep defending these idiots like they were just some nice guys who got in over their heads. They faked a game for 13 years, and the only tiny bit that was built was because they suckered a few people into hiring Teddy. They freakin said they were developing the game from 2002 to 2006.. and there is NOTHING. How do you have a team of 20+ people working for 4 years and not be able to show anything but a few screenshots that aren´t even a game. And again they said they were developing the game from 2012-2013 in Hero Engine... and again.. NOTHING.. A generic map with a spider ( that someone imported for them) chasing a default human. Read the crap they were writing from 2002-2006, and again from 2012-2013.. and then watch that hero engine video again... but hey, they are nice guys, they would never lie to you.
    I think you should cut Fornax some slack here Azrile. The only thing he's saying is that he doesn't feel it was a scam, and to be completely fair, there -is- a tiny bit of wiggle room for a plausible argument of "incompetent but not malicious".

    I believe the Three Stooges were both incompetent and malicious however, particularly in light of this additional history. Sure, a demo was (eventually) made, but there's a lot of that $67k that isn't accounted for, at least not with that list of excuses Brax gave; certainly not after Teddy clarified his compensation. The malice part for me is knowing that they have -zero- qualms about lying to, misleading and misdirecting their fanbase, who want so much to see this game get made.

    Even for those with no financial capital sunk into this morass, there certainly appears to be a lot of emotional investment. No one likes being wrong, nor being taken for a ride. We should save our ire for those who really deserve it.

  3. #5523
    I dunno it seems pretty obviously a scam to me. As others say, it's not a "we aren't going to make a game, we're just going to squeeze money out of people!" type scam, but these people legitimately lied multiple times to get support. If you mislead people I believe it's a scam, even if your intention is eventually to make the best game ever (and get rich doing so).
    Quote Originally Posted by True Anarch View Post
    Never claimed I was a genuis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    I don't give a fuck if cops act shitty towards people, never have.

  4. #5524
    It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even. It's funny, we used to joke about ToA being some grand social experiment about how long we would support SP without ever seeing anything from the game. Amazing how after all of these years some people still believe. Grand social experiment indeed.

    Hell, I'm getting sucked back into the aftermath of all this, albeit with a different opinion now. Another mouse for the maze I suppose.

  5. #5525
    Quote Originally Posted by Harris34 View Post
    It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even. It's funny, we used to joke about ToA being some grand social experiment about how long we would support SP without ever seeing anything from the game. Amazing how after all of these years some people still believe. Grand social experiment indeed.

    Hell, I'm getting sucked back into the aftermath of all this, albeit with a different opinion now. Another mouse for the maze I suppose.
    If it's any consolation, we have more varieties of cheese!

  6. #5526
    Quote Originally Posted by Harris34 View Post
    It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even.
    I'm sure on some level they loved that too, seeing people legitimately blowing smoke up their butts(however much of the overall was dev-alt chicanery, there were and are a handful of actual fans who think they can do no wrong)for them doing little to nothing over the years.

  7. #5527
    To be fair for Fornax's comment that the events from the second KS may be the worst out of everything...

    They did actually have a 'game' in the form of their tech demo (regardless of the quality or condition of the demo). The blunder is is that they did not show anything gameplay related, or from the demo at all, to anyone (that didn't pay $500 for demo access or whatever), especially when promoting toa to outside sources and the public and through KS (and of course timing of the KS and all that stuff too). I mean, they had something, but didn't (want to?) reveal or promote or showcase it...? That Fornax's, and others, funds were utilized to create that demo, yet the demo itself, or any footage, was never utilized for toa and its promotion for the KS. That the one thing they have for obvious proof of concept and an actual playable 'game' world, yet do not provide it when it is most needed.

    I mean, it is one thing if Brax (and others) lies to their fans and other people. But how exactly can they explain this situation, when there is actual proof of content being created?
    Reject common sense to make the impossible possible! ~Kamina, Gurren Lagann

    ...You'll kill my dick?! What the hell does that even mean? I'll kill your dick! ~Grayson Hunt, Bulletstorm

  8. #5528
    And that is why the fans that still support them are insane. Let us just make some absurd assumptions. Let´s assume that it is possible for 3 CEOs with no skills to make a MMORPG. Let´s make the assumption that they raise enough money to actually hire some decent workers.

    What in the past of these three idiots would lead anyone to believe that they could manage the project? They have literally screwed up everything since this all started. The fans gave them almost double the amount the said they need to make a demo video.. and they produced absolute garbage. They spent $67,000 to fundraise $28,000 and even though Teddy did some decent work, the three stoogies completely destroyed their own KS. They have twice now had a mass exodus of people who work with them. Xanword was pretty obvious with his lashing out at Brax´s abilities, and Teddy probably was a little more restrained, but you have to believe his comment about turning on the server was made for our amusement. They bought all kinda crap they didn´t need, or that didn´t work. If you can´t manage money, and you can´t manage people.... why does anyone think these three nobodies could actually make a game if given the proper money or workers. You would just end up with a larger version of their KS#2, where they have everything they need, yet still manage to screw it all up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    I'm sure on some level they loved that too, seeing people legitimately blowing smoke up their butts(however much of the overall was dev-alt chicanery, there were and are a handful of actual fans who think they can do no wrong)for them doing little to nothing over the years.
    I thought that too. I thought maybe over the years they bought into the fans worshiping them and it just snowballed. But if you read Brax´s posts from day 1 back in 2002, he was already talking like he was the person who created Super Mario.

  9. #5529
    Quote Originally Posted by Gattsu125 View Post
    To be fair for Fornax's comment that the events from the second KS may be the worst out of everything...

    They did actually have a 'game' in the form of their tech demo (regardless of the quality or condition of the demo). The blunder is is that they did not show anything gameplay related, or from the demo at all, to anyone (that didn't pay $500 for demo access or whatever), especially when promoting toa to outside sources and the public and through KS (and of course timing of the KS and all that stuff too). I mean, they had something, but didn't (want to?) reveal or promote or showcase it...? That Fornax's, and others, funds were utilized to create that demo, yet the demo itself, or any footage, was never utilized for toa and its promotion for the KS. That the one thing they have for obvious proof of concept and an actual playable 'game' world, yet do not provide it when it is most needed.

    I mean, it is one thing if Brax (and others) lies to their fans and other people. But how exactly can they explain this situation, when there is actual proof of content being created?
    When they relaunched a couple years ago, I gave them plenty of shit about how they never proved they could make anything, so why would we support them now. I told them, release a video of the alpha you guys said you made back in the SP days. At least that would show proof you could make something. Say look what we tried to do back then but didn't have the means to do, now with new tech we have come back to complete our vision. There is NO REASON that they shouldn't have released proof of the work from back in SP days if they actually HAD anything to show. The whole "keeping our vision/IP safe from being stolen" argument just wasn't holding water anymore (a lot of games have used similar systems that SP/FC was going for already, to both positive and negative effect).

    At least at that point they would have had SOME level of credibility. They have still yet to directly address what happened to the old game they apparently would show to investors. Of course that didn't stop people from donating anyway.

  10. #5530
    In response to a post about a person stopping posting on the forums and basically leaving the community we get this gem: "So, bye bye to any quitters, you won't be missed since we know you will be back You can doubt me on that all you like, go find another game that beats ToA's standards for game mechanics and is even as far along towards release (ok, fantasy games, Star Citizen does have gazillions of funding dollars to force it to market.)"

    Toa's standards for game mechanics? Mindless sword swinging in front of you? umm any game is farther along in being released than a game with 3 CEOs who only know how to turn on the server.

  11. #5531
    I was actually a bit sad when the KS2 failed, the ToA forums became silent and Brax announced they would come back with more after a short break. Then Devalt #59 pops up and Azrile strikes gold. If MMO-champ ever has a poll for best thread ever, this is getting my vote.

  12. #5532
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    This Talon-thorn guy really scares me. Here is some old fan-fic he made on Brax as a figure in ToA.
    The blade of Brax is covered in blood; his victims do not see nor hear his coming; he is like a shadow in the night ...
    - Talon-thorn

    True in many ways.

  13. #5533
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Toa's standards for game mechanics? Mindless sword swinging in front of you? umm any game is farther along in being released than a game with 3 CEOs who only know how to turn on the server.
    To be fair, he means standards for ideals in game mechanics, i.e. hardcore permadeath no handholding skill-based blah blah blah yakkity-schmakkity. Sure, maybe no other game holds to those exact 'uber' standards, but I'm willing to bet someone who did want to make that and actually tried instead of sitting around going 'developing is hard give us money so we can pay someone else to do all the work' could be further along in a year than these worthless fools are in twelve.

  14. #5534
    Quote Originally Posted by Taojnhy View Post
    I think you should cut Fornax some slack here Azrile. The only thing he's saying is that he doesn't feel it was a scam, and to be completely fair, there -is- a tiny bit of wiggle room for a plausible argument of "incompetent but not malicious".

    I believe the Three Stooges were both incompetent and malicious however, particularly in light of this additional history. Sure, a demo was (eventually) made, but there's a lot of that $67k that isn't accounted for, at least not with that list of excuses Brax gave; certainly not after Teddy clarified his compensation. The malice part for me is knowing that they have -zero- qualms about lying to, misleading and misdirecting their fanbase, who want so much to see this game get made.

    Even for those with no financial capital sunk into this morass, there certainly appears to be a lot of emotional investment. No one likes being wrong, nor being taken for a ride. We should save our ire for those who really deserve it.
    Appreciate this. Thanks. I am living proof that a fool and his money are soon parted. I feel worse for those who weren't in a position like mine and who didn't have a lot of extra income. But all of it is money spent foolishly.

    You're right, I was far more emotionally invested than I was financially. I will give you guys another tidbit that bugged me. Recently, I threw away the CLOTH MAP of their world that they actually made AND SENT OUT, BEFORE the virtual world was even created. I mean....it was an actual reward for those of who donated at a certain level, but wtf? I remember hating it, both because it was badly done in my opinion, and it was the cart before the horse. Christ, I remember complaining about it right away, and there was fanboy blowback at me for not being positive. I actually toned down some of my complaints to avoid BS. One post, I actually deleted. I shouldn't have, looking back I it now.

    I had to correct Varl's descriptions of tributaries and waterways, because (at least based on how things were described in the "lore") he didn't understand that water flowed downhill, and the tributaries join rivers for the most part, not the reverse. They also had a major mistake in their zone descriptions that I was able to help them fix in the lore, but all of this was AFTER they had the freaking CLOTH MAP made!

    It's shit like this that tells me it was like kids playing house. Guys "playing devs". They just really didn't get it. Obviously, I didn't either, but I wasn't trying to tell people I could. Anyway. It's pathetic more than it is malicious.
    Last edited by Fornax-; 2015-03-29 at 05:55 PM.

  15. #5535
    Deleted
    How was the quality of that anyway? Was it good? Aside from the various mistakes, did it look professional? And how large was it? Did you also order any other merchandise like that coin? I'm merely curious.

    It kinda makes me remember the map I got when I bought Oblivion many years ago. Was quite cool to have it. I see no issues with selling physical merchandise. My issue was all the virtual crap. I also still laugh when I picture Bowen with the FC cap.

  16. #5536
    Quote Originally Posted by Fornax- View Post
    Recently, I threw away the CLOTH MAP of their world that they actually made AND SENT OUT, BEFORE the virtual world was even created. I mean....it was an actual reward for those of who donated at a certain level, but wtf? I remember hating it, both because it was badly done in my opinion, and it was the cart before the horse.
    We've talked about that many times before, the 'toilet paper dev notes' phenomenon. They make all these high idealized posts about how things will be and encourage if not outright fabricate discussions about shit no game designer would ever think to waste time on cos they're busy trying to actually MAKE a game and not just draw up a bunch of concepts.

    But that's because it's comparatively easy to sit there and write all that stuff down. And that's all they've ever concerned themselves with, the easy stuff and money to pay someone else to do the hard stuff.

  17. #5537
    Quote Originally Posted by Fornax- View Post
    Appreciate this. Thanks. I am living proof that a fool and his money are soon parted. I feel worse for those who weren't in a position like mine and who didn't have a lot of extra income. But all of it is money spent foolishly.

    You're right, I was far more emotionally invested than I was financially. I will give you guys another tidbit that bugged me. Recently, I threw away the CLOTH MAP of their world that they actually made AND SENT OUT, BEFORE the virtual world was even created. I mean....it was an actual reward for those of who donated at a certain level, but wtf? I remember hating it, both because it was badly done in my opinion, and it was the cart before the horse. Christ, I remember complaining about it right away, and there was fanboy blowback at me for not being positive. I actually toned down some of my complaints to avoid BS. One post, I actually deleted. I shouldn't have, looking back I it now.

    I had to correct Varl's descriptions of tributaries and waterways, because (at least based on how things were described in the "lore") he didn't understand that water flowed downhill, and the tributaries join rivers for the most part, not the reverse. They also had a major mistake in their zone descriptions that I was able to help them fix in the lore, but all of this was AFTER they had the freaking CLOTH MAP made!

    It's shit like this that tells me it was like kids playing house. Guys "playing devs". They just really didn't get it. Obviously, I didn't either, but I wasn't trying to tell people I could. Anyway. It's pathetic more than it is malicious.
    If it makes you feel any better, I spoke with Teddy a little. I shouldn't say much but, it wasn't entirely a waste =P

  18. #5538
    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    If it makes you feel any better, I spoke with Teddy a little. I shouldn't say much but, it wasn't entirely a waste =P
    Careful of the forthcoming floodgate-opening.
    Last edited by Sunaka; 2015-03-29 at 07:27 PM.

  19. #5539
    Quote Originally Posted by Marweinicus View Post
    How was the quality of that anyway? Was it good? Aside from the various mistakes, did it look professional? And how large was it? Did you also order any other merchandise like that coin? I'm merely curious.

    It kinda makes me remember the map I got when I bought Oblivion many years ago. Was quite cool to have it. I see no issues with selling physical merchandise. My issue was all the virtual crap. I also still laugh when I picture Bowen with the FC cap.
    The actual fabric was quite good. Good color, too. I just didn't like the layout, nor the design of the world. Just seemed like a big square with a lake and then a swamp and then a desert.

  20. #5540
    Ultima 4 and I think the original Ultima Online box came with a cloth map. Ultima 4 even came with a little metal ankh thingie. But yeah, that was in the box for a released game, not as a pre-pre-alpha reward for donors. I think they knew they couldn´t actually make the game, so they did all of the PR and marketing stuff to the extreme. That was just a crap-ton of IRC chats and a huge waste of time talking about detailed stuff for a game so early.

    We have already changed our map in fairly major ways 3 or 4 different times. It is impossible to draw it on paper or even 3d model it and think you are done. Until you are running around on it as a life-sized player, there are things you never would think would be a problem that just pop up. Most players don´t realize how constrained game development is by performance. If you see an early alpha map of a game, more than likely the real map will have more drastic height differences just to block vision and increase FPS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fornax- View Post
    The actual fabric was quite good. Good color, too. I just didn't like the layout, nor the design of the world. Just seemed like a big square with a lake and then a swamp and then a desert.
    seriously.. put it on ebay. When this is all said and done.. this thread alone would probably help you get some of your money back. I mean at this point, I would buy it for $20 and take a selfie next to it just to make a forum sig here.

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