1. #5761
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    I was unaware that I called you a programmer, can you point it out for me? You are working on this "project", yes?



    Are you not?

    If yes, why are you here? Surely, there must be hundreds of different ways for you to spend your time, rather than sitting here on MMOC and defending yourself?

    And indeed, my comment is a ridicule of you, because that's what you are. A joke. You cherrypick the questions you want to answer and avoiding shit like this:



    You argue around definition of words (branding) but don't have shit to brand.

    So yes, grow the fuck up.
    I cherry-picked nothing. My comments about branding were NOT in reference to those assets, so the precedent argument is consequently moot. If anything, that's a demonstration of *my* comments being cherry-picked. You've also failed to account that we're in the process of transitioning the game to our new servers - (i.e. there's nothing to *do* at this point aside from wait for the servers to be set up). Good looking out, though! :-/

    My time is just that; MY time. I will decide how I spend my time, not you. You have no control over me, and I don't know you or respect you enough to heed ANY of your advice.

    You also don't phase me. I don't care what you think of me. You don't influence my decisions, as you have nothing of value to present to me. I can handle constructive criticism, but blatant attacks will be swiftly forgotten.

    If there's something constructive you'd like to say, then I'd suggest you get on with it. Otherwise, I can think of a thousand different more-constructive ways for YOU to spend your time as well... ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    I´ve read the plans for GreedMonger. There is no way they are going to pick people up off the street and accomplish anything like they have planned. If James keeps being the man, it is never going to get made. If they turn it over to someone competent, they are going to start from scratch. Nobody competent is going to look at what happened so far with this game and want to join the team. Again, you have the same problem as ToA.. There are some unique ideas, but anyone that could accomplish them would just do it themselves and stay away from the mess. If I had the networking chops to do the housing and plot system that GM wants to do, I would not join GM, I would just do it myself with a fresh kickstarter and no bad press. The same way if I wanted to make a game with permadeath and spider characters, I wouldn´t join ToA, I would just do it myself. GM and ToA, less than zero right now.
    Your assessment is valid, however much I disagree with it. If it weren't for our prior involvement in this project, we would have walked. Giving the KS backers nothing was just not in the cards as far as we were concerned.

  2. #5762
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Yeah, Unreal is free now, which is probably the thing that forced Unity to make Unity Pro 5.0 free, which was like a Christmas present for me, complete surprise that saved me $1500.

    People do benchmarks all the time comparing Unity to Unreal. There really isn´t that much of a difference as far as what kinda FPS you can get with the exact same scene. I may be remembering it backwards, but Unity 4.0 vs Unreal, Unreal did better up until you started using more than one light source or something like that. The difference was never big enough to make me use it. For unreal, you need to know C++ which is ´real´ programming. Unity uses C# which is more like javascript and built for accomplishing things for games. That was always my reason for using Unity and Hero Engine ( HE uses it´s own script language that is similar to C#)
    Yeh dabbling with unity for the last few weeks, it works pretty well. Having to dust off a lot of my programming knowledge which was well out of date. I will have to get the unreal engine as well and see whats on offer there. It is good that unity followed suit and put 5.0 for free, stuff like that is always welcome. Just like when valve used to put their world building tools out there. Used to love making little mods and maps etc for them.

    I will be working on my own indie game mostly for fun, but first I have been following the online tutorials for unity and then dabbling with ideas on my own time. The guys who run both the ToA project and GM seem to just outsource it which IMO for such a small unit is just suicide. If I was to do what they did it would be no better than trying to run a KS with project notes on the back of a fag packet.

    Not saying I am going onto KS or anything but you get the point. I will make my own little game for my friends and I but it won't be a fast project, certainly since I am learning how to use unity (which is pretty simple so far but I only do a bit of work on it during weekends). If these guys seriously want to make a game they should have put the time in to do it them selves. Which was your point all along tbh.

  3. #5763
    Warchief Fallen Angel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    Our goal is to provide the backers with a game that is as close to the original concept as possible, within the scope of our abilities. Our old Creative Lead (of which we're trying to get back) did QA for Sony. Others do freelance work for various mobile games/indie titles/etc. Nobody is a 'rockstar' if that's what you're going for.
    What I'm going for is specific examples of what your developers have done. I would want to know the people I'm supporting actually have experience in creating some semblance of a successful game. Do they have experience working on an MMO? It takes very little to say X has worked on "something" because it's providing no information at all.

    Who was your CL? Why are you trying to get them back?

    I hope you don't think I'm trying to attack you, but I'd rather have the full picture for what you're spinning rather than bits of information that really mean nothing.

  4. #5764
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yeh dabbling with unity for the last few weeks, it works pretty well. Having to dust off a lot of my programming knowledge which was well out of date. I will have to get the unreal engine as well and see whats on offer there. It is good that unity followed suit and put 5.0 for free, stuff like that is always welcome. Just like when valve used to put their world building tools out there. Used to love making little mods and maps etc for them.

    I will be working on my own indie game mostly for fun, but first I have been following the online tutorials for unity and then dabbling with ideas on my own time. The guys who run both the ToA project and GM seem to just outsource it which IMO for such a small unit is just suicide. If I was to do what they did it would be no better than trying to run a KS with project notes on the back of a fag packet.

    Not saying I am going onto KS or anything but you get the point. I will make my own little game for my friends and I but it won't be a fast project, certainly since I am learning how to use unity (which is pretty simple so far but I only do a bit of work on it during weekends). If these guys seriously want to make a game they should have put the time in to do it them selves. Which was your point all along tbh.
    C'mon man! Outsourcing MMO's is the future! Stop living in the past! It is way easier to talk a good game on forums than actually do anything that looks like work or coding!

  5. #5765
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    The reason we need the new avatar system is to go with Atavism. Atavism is on our short-list, as we own the license for it. However, we're currently exploring other options that would be better-suited.
    And James is BSing you again...... You need UMA2 to go with Atavism? First off, that is completely untrue. Second, I already gave you a link to where you could have downloaded UMA2 many months ago. If this was really holding up your development on Atavism (not true anyway) then the solution has been available.

    How I can help you? The problem you have is like I said. You are making a MMORPG ( the hardest possible game to make) using an engine ( Unity) that was not created to make MMORPGs and you are using an MMORPG kit that doesn´t have many of the most important features to make a MMORPG. This isn´t about willpower or uphill battle... This is about reality... GM is not getting made anywhere near how it is designed with plots and stuff like that.

    My advice to save yourself some money. The first thing you should do is get them to build a small world, and get 100 people logged in at the same time using the client. If you cannot get 100 people running around an empty world without lag, than there is no sense buying artwork, or coders or nothing... the system simply will never be able to scale high enough for the game you have designed.

    I am curious, I have never seen this. Have Atavism devs ever actually did a test like this on any of their games? Have you ever seen a screenshot with a 100 people logged in at the same time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I will be working on my own indie game mostly for fun, but first I have been following the online tutorials for unity
    Did you see the tutorials they did with the Nightmare survival shooter and Rogue-like game. They basically walk you through making an entire game and give you the art assets along with it. I watch every video they put up, I am always amazed at how I can take 50 lines of code to do something they did in 3. I never fail to learn some technique, even from their basic tutorials

    http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    C'mon man! Outsourcing MMO's is the future! Stop living in the past! It is way easier to talk a good game on forums than actually do anything that looks like work or coding!
    The only thing better than outsourcing an MMORPG is getting your forum posters volunteer to build it for you...

  6. #5766
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Did you see the tutorials they did with the Nightmare survival shooter and Rogue-like game. They basically walk you through making an entire game and give you the art assets along with it. I watch every video they put up, I am always amazed at how I can take 50 lines of code to do something they did in 3. I never fail to learn some technique, even from their basic tutorials

    http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules

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    The only thing better than outsourcing an MMORPG is getting your forum posters volunteer to build it for you...
    The nightmare one I did it was really easy to do. Having multiple monitors made it very simple at home (I have a 4 Meter Long work station I built at home that runs along a wall in my spare room where I have my PC then my 32" TV for playing xbox/watching sky tv on and another space for my GFs PC) Had unity tutorial on one screen and the program in another. Just downloaded the assets and did a monkey see monkey do. Then after I did it I had a little play around with what they showed me to see if I could change the level around a bit. Helps me understand what they did a little more tbh.

    Its the way forward on learning tbh, much better than when I first did modding years ago on half life! I just don't get why they did not put a little effort in. Imagine if they took the time in 2012 to before their KS and took a few years to plug away and learn. You could really have made a lot more than toilet paper notes. I think War for the underworlds a good example. I think they are using unity now the games "released" it is a bit buggy being a small team but it does play well when it works (memory leaks aside making level 10 almost unplayable) Those guys took the time to put up their work and actually produced something after all that time.

  7. #5767
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I think War for the underworlds a good example. I think they are using unity now the games "released" it is a bit buggy being a small team but it does play well when it works (memory leaks aside making level 10 almost unplayable) Those guys took the time to put up their work and actually produced something after all that time.
    It is, and they have. Their launch was messy, it was really rushed(some suggested on account of Dungeons 2 coming out), but they're trying to squash their bugs and get the rest of the game's functionality up and going. They were very transparent about their project, kept it updated and talked about its development week to week. They were fans of a classic game and wanted to make a spiritual successor. And because they spent their time working on the game and not sitting around with their fingers in their noses waiting for some schlub to make it for them, guess what?

    They succeeded.

    Food for thought, wannabe's.

  8. #5768
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    It is, and they have. Their launch was messy, it was really rushed(some suggested on account of Dungeons 2 coming out), but they're trying to squash their bugs and get the rest of the game's functionality up and going. They were very transparent about their project, kept it updated and talked about its development week to week. They were fans of a classic game and wanted to make a spiritual successor. And because they spent their time working on the game and not sitting around with their fingers in their noses waiting for some schlub to make it for them, guess what?

    They succeeded.

    Food for thought, wannabe's.
    Indeed, the rushed release aside they've done a really good job considering. I like how the game is very simple, yet has a lot of complex elements you can delve into. You can tell its made by fans as its got the very same feel that Dungeon Keeper had right down to the voice acting. They did release too early IMO with some glaring problems. But it is a small team and they are doing regular updates to the game AND to the community via posts etc. So they are a good example of an indie team making something worth while. Then we see the mess of ToA and now GM? Makes me shake my head that things like this come to light as I like the idea of kick starter and I dont want peoples faith in it shaken by setups like this polluting it.

  9. #5769
    I'd like to suggest that we tone down the vitriol against Joel here. Not much point in our, to borrow Derium's phrase, going for the throat. Clearly the majority of us posting recently here, myself included, don't see GM having a snowball's chance in Scottsdale; yet we are all perfectly capable of expressing that without unnecessary personal attacks and name-calling.

    That said Joel, while I appreciate that you're trying to cleanup and damage control for not only GM but also Mr. Proctor, I hope you understand that most of us here are not remotely fans of Mr. Appleton, but we also see that while perhaps Mr. Proctor couldn't be held -legally- accountable for GM's technical failings under ECG we certainly do hold him responsible nonetheless. In truth, you're not only having to work on GM's brand (which I agree with others here seems premature right now; but I'm hardly qualified to offer marketing advice), but more importantly on Mr. Proctor's brand.

    This is the sticking point, I feel: by essentially replacing Mr. Appleton with yourself while Mr. Proctor still is employed in making GM, you would have us believe that Mr. Appleton was the reason that GM has stagnated. We see it a bit differently though, and again I want to stress that we are -not- supporters of Mr. Appleton, but we can't ignore that the one person we consider directly responsible for the work done on GM over the last three years and the content of that video is still at the technical helm.

  10. #5770
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Angel View Post
    What I'm going for is specific examples of what your developers have done. I would want to know the people I'm supporting actually have experience in creating some semblance of a successful game. Do they have experience working on an MMO? It takes very little to say X has worked on "something" because it's providing no information at all.

    Who was your CL? Why are you trying to get them back?

    I hope you don't think I'm trying to attack you, but I'd rather have the full picture for what you're spinning rather than bits of information that really mean nothing.
    I'll have to go through and ask again. Like I said, it's nothing 'notable' in any sense, and we're not 'rockstars' at all. We're just working towards having something to show at present. Our CL Jesse worked on 1st party QA for Sony. Some people did some small freelance work for other, various companies (usually under NDA). I'd never make any illusions that we're some 'mega group' that's developed a million successful franchises, because that would be untrue...

    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    It is, and they have. Their launch was messy, it was really rushed(some suggested on account of Dungeons 2 coming out), but they're trying to squash their bugs and get the rest of the game's functionality up and going. They were very transparent about their project, kept it updated and talked about its development week to week. They were fans of a classic game and wanted to make a spiritual successor. And because they spent their time working on the game and not sitting around with their fingers in their noses waiting for some schlub to make it for them, guess what?

    They succeeded.

    Food for thought, wannabe's.
    Aside from the blatant attack at the end, you make a lot of great points. There's not really much to speak about in the context you've provided. I can only say that we're definitely not sitting here 'with our fingers in our noses' - we're moving forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Indeed, the rushed release aside they've done a really good job considering. I like how the game is very simple, yet has a lot of complex elements you can delve into. You can tell its made by fans as its got the very same feel that Dungeon Keeper had right down to the voice acting. They did release too early IMO with some glaring problems. But it is a small team and they are doing regular updates to the game AND to the community via posts etc. So they are a good example of an indie team making something worth while. Then we see the mess of ToA and now GM? Makes me shake my head that things like this come to light as I like the idea of kick starter and I dont want peoples faith in it shaken by setups like this polluting it.
    I can certainly agree with a lot of the sentiments here. This is *exactly* why we didn't abandon GM. We don't want GM contributing to the long line of messy games that ruin peoples' feelings about indie game development. We've made mistakes, but if we right the ship, at least GM won't be completely contributing to that negative image. Hopefully that gives you more insight as to *why* we're doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taojnhy View Post
    I'd like to suggest that we tone down the vitriol against Joel here. Not much point in our, to borrow Derium's phrase, going for the throat. Clearly the majority of us posting recently here, myself included, don't see GM having a snowball's chance in Scottsdale; yet we are all perfectly capable of expressing that without unnecessary personal attacks and name-calling.

    That said Joel, while I appreciate that you're trying to cleanup and damage control for not only GM but also Mr. Proctor, I hope you understand that most of us here are not remotely fans of Mr. Appleton, but we also see that while perhaps Mr. Proctor couldn't be held -legally- accountable for GM's technical failings under ECG we certainly do hold him responsible nonetheless. In truth, you're not only having to work on GM's brand (which I agree with others here seems premature right now; but I'm hardly qualified to offer marketing advice), but more importantly on Mr. Proctor's brand.

    This is the sticking point, I feel: by essentially replacing Mr. Appleton with yourself while Mr. Proctor still is employed in making GM, you would have us believe that Mr. Appleton was the reason that GM has stagnated. We see it a bit differently though, and again I want to stress that we are -not- supporters of Mr. Appleton, but we can't ignore that the one person we consider directly responsible for the work done on GM over the last three years and the content of that video is still at the technical helm.
    I appreciate your defense, but I knew this was going to happen going into this. I'm not a big fan of personal attacks, but if there's a point to be had in there as well, I'll take that out of it. If it's just a personal attack, then it will just be ignored, and doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    The video was a mistake - Plain and simple. There were some changes in direction that happened, that if I were at the helm I would've waited on. I use this steak analogy, as it relates perfectly to this circumstance, and everybody has dealt with this before (even if not steak, something else).

    Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

    We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.

  11. #5771
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    I appreciate your defense, but I knew this was going to happen going into this. I'm not a big fan of personal attacks, but if there's a point to be had in there as well, I'll take that out of it. If it's just a personal attack, then it will just be ignored, and doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    The video was a mistake - Plain and simple. There were some changes in direction that happened, that if I were at the helm I would've waited on. I use this steak analogy, as it relates perfectly to this circumstance, and everybody has dealt with this before (even if not steak, something else).

    Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

    We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.
    To be perfectly frank, my position here I imagine is somewhat parallel to yours; I'm more concerned about the image we in this thread are presenting towards those who come here to engage us. I don't want us to be viewed as "those trolls at MMO-C" and that excuse used to obfuscate legitimate criticisms such as we've had happen with our dealings with Forged Chaos and their Trials of Ascension project. I have no doubts that you can handle yourself Joel.

    I have to admit I'm a bit stuck on your steak analogy; if a steak is overcooked how is taking more time going to make it perfect? Did you mean undercooked? If you meant undercooked, okay, I see where you're coming from. But as this relates to GM we're now talking about a steak that's taken three years to cook (despite assurances from the cook that far more progress was being made than was actually the case) and when we finally lay eyes on what turns out to be a cooked hoof and express our displeasure to the cook, knowing full well that more time is needed for the steak that we paid in advance for, we also are still hungry and that the chances of our saying, "screw this, let's go get Thai" start climbing.

    I'm either overthinking this or you need a better analogy.

  12. #5772
    Quote Originally Posted by Taojnhy View Post
    To be perfectly frank, my position here I imagine is somewhat parallel to yours; I'm more concerned about the image we in this thread are presenting towards those who come here to engage us. I don't want us to be viewed as "those trolls at MMO-C" and that excuse used to obfuscate legitimate criticisms such as we've had happen with our dealings with Forged Chaos and their Trials of Ascension project. I have no doubts that you can handle yourself Joel.

    I have to admit I'm a bit stuck on your steak analogy; if a steak is overcooked how is taking more time going to make it perfect? Did you mean undercooked? If you meant undercooked, okay, I see where you're coming from.

    I'm either overthinking this or you need a better analogy.
    In food service, you throw away the bad steak, and recook it. Apologies for not being clear enough.

  13. #5773
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    In food service, you throw away the bad steak, and recook it. Apologies for not being clear enough.
    Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

    So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?

  14. #5774
    yeah. Here is what I see.

    There is absolutely no difference betweeen you and Jason. No game development or programming skills, just a lot of talk about PR, Branding and team-building and you are committed to this game. Neither of you can provide details of any game that either you or any of your employees actually created and you are already buying into the fake excuses and promises James was making to Jason for the last 3 years. That you believe in James makes me question your ability to recognize talent.. 3 years, $100,000 and he produced that January video. Hilarious that you talk about all these other employees that lining up to work for you..they must have some killed videos out there too.

    And what you type and talk about.. seriously it is exactly what James has been doing for 3 years on the forums. A lot of fault blamed on everyone else that has now been taking care of.. A lot of technical excuses that honestly make no sense. Republique was a completed game that went from Unity4 to Unity5 in less than a day. My own project took less than a few hours to switch over, but yet the video James released somehow requires 4 months to use Unity5? And this talk about UMA2 is a fake excuse also. But here you are, doing exactly what James did for years.. making promises of something that is coming ´real soon´.. but rest assured, when it doesn´t happen, it will be the fault of someone else... UMA, Atavism.. someone... but at the same time.. fear not, because the newer solution will be coming soon. Do you not realize this is exactly why your fans abandoned the game over the last 2 years? And why we are all giving the same advice to shut up and make the game first? Show progress before you talk about progress.

    The game is now apparently in Alpha, which means nothing except James called it Alpha, just like he called himself CEO of MMOI. There is absolutely no reason anyone should think the game is anywhere past that January video. God, it is the same as ToA.. spending all their time on the forums talking about progress, but not actually making any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taojnhy View Post
    Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

    So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?
    Yes, they are going to change engines, change network solutions, change everything. Read James on his forums for the last 3 years, it was what he has been doing all along, it is his excuse for not making progress. It is always the fault of engine/networking etc... but they want to make the perfect steak, so they are going to use new stuff, that will make everything perfect. Joel just doesn´t know enough to know that James is just making excuses. Psst.. the bad steak is James and the idea that a CEO who has never made a game can suddenly create a team from thin air to create one.

  15. #5775
    Quote Originally Posted by Taojnhy View Post
    Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

    So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?
    As I had stated before, we will be going back as far as we have to to ensure that we have a stable foundation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    yeah. Here is what I see.

    There is absolutely no difference betweeen you and Jason. No game development or programming skills, just a lot of talk about PR, Branding and team-building and you are committed to this game. Neither of you can provide details of any game that either you or any of your employees actually created and you are already buying into the fake excuses and promises James was making to Jason for the last 3 years. That you believe in James makes me question your ability to recognize talent.. 3 years, $100,000 and he produced that January video. Hilarious that you talk about all these other employees that lining up to work for you..they must have some killed videos out there too.

    And what you type and talk about.. seriously it is exactly what James has been doing for 3 years on the forums. A lot of fault blamed on everyone else that has now been taking care of.. A lot of technical excuses that honestly make no sense. Republique was a completed game that went from Unity4 to Unity5 in less than a day. My own project took less than a few hours to switch over, but yet the video James released somehow requires 4 months to use Unity5? And this talk about UMA2 is a fake excuse also. But here you are, doing exactly what James did for years.. making promises of something that is coming ´real soon´.. but rest assured, when it doesn´t happen, it will be the fault of someone else... UMA, Atavism.. someone... but at the same time.. fear not, because the newer solution will be coming soon. Do you not realize this is exactly why your fans abandoned the game over the last 2 years? And why we are all giving the same advice to shut up and make the game first? Show progress before you talk about progress.

    The game is now apparently in Alpha, which means nothing except James called it Alpha, just like he called himself CEO of MMOI. There is absolutely no reason anyone should think the game is anywhere past that January video. God, it is the same as ToA.. spending all their time on the forums talking about progress, but not actually making any.
    Personally, I don't care what your thoughts are about me, as I know them to be patently false. I've made no 'promises' per se -- I've only promised that we'll work our asses off to get something to show. Please - Tell me where I ever mentioned any dates, or asked for money? The precipice of a scam is getting money from people. I can understand being defensive, but the lengths at which you're willing to go to substantiate your own views are, to me, silly.

    Again, maybe heed your own advice, by remaining silent (a more polite paraphrasing) and let us give you something to rip apart at a later date. You spend so much time attacking our character, you don't even realize that you're falling into your own trap.

    'Spending all [our] time?' Really? I've been on here for what, 2 days? I have 20 posts. Your hyperbole is not needed, nor is it wanted or warranted.

  16. #5776
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

    We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.
    Well, the analogy is rather bad. It's more like some fairly new guy trying to do something they don't even have the tools for. It's like a math bachelor trying to prove the Riemann hypothesis. Okay, it's not that much of a gap.

    Some of you might have noticed that I was inactive the last few months. Work aside, I read up on new stuff in game development. There is quite an interesting pattern that extends far beyond even R&D - people tend to try something way out of reach and fail monumentally or at least produce a flawed result. Like new guys on that WC3 modding site I linked way earlier - "this new RPG by <insert random inexperienced guy> has 24 heroes, 400 spells, individual talent trees, ..." ... aaaand ... it plays like the garbage it is. If you ask me, they should rather put in the effort to make ~5 or so heroes fun to play and interesting than create loads of stuff that doesn't matter anyway because everything is just a bloated mess and nothing really works out.

    What should you get out of this rant of mine? Don't reach for the stars immediately, go for something you can actually do on a satisfying level of quality. You could create an instanced small-scale multiplayer RPG (something like Vindictus [I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong here]), for instance (sorry for the bad pun). It's not that much of a loss compared to a MMORPG, but it's way easier to create and refine. Don't build large-overhead stuff like MMORPGs if you aren't skilled/experienced/wealthy/... enough to capitalize on the benefits over the small(er)-overhead alternatives.

  17. #5777
    @Azrile

    Just look at how much time you've personally dedicated to taking up a pitchfork to MMOI. I have to ask - Why do you feel the need to incessantly make claims, and jump to conclusions? Are we asking for money? No - So there's no 'threat' to the 'people' that you seem so eager to 'protect.' Don't think we can finish? Ok - You've made your thoughts ABUNDANTLY clear. Not sure why you feel the need to repeat yourself ad nauseum. If people don't care, then let them not care. There's a HUGE difference, however, between not having any hope in a project anymore, and relentlessly bashing people for some inexplicable reason.

    Please - Tell me how what you're doing is benefitting ANYBODY right now. One answer. I have yet to think of one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliefpfeiler View Post
    Well, the analogy is rather bad. It's more like some fairly new guy trying to do something they don't even have the tools for. It's like a math bachelor trying to prove the Riemann hypothesis. Okay, it's not that much of a gap.

    Some of you might have noticed that I was inactive the last few months. Work aside, I read up on new stuff in game development. There is quite an interesting pattern that extends far beyond even R&D - people tend to try something way out of reach and fail monumentally or at least produce a flawed result. Like new guys on that WC3 modding site I linked way earlier - "this new RPG by <insert random inexperienced guy> has 24 heroes, 400 spells, individual talent trees, ..." ... aaaand ... it plays like the garbage it is. If you ask me, they should rather put in the effort to make ~5 or so heroes fun to play and interesting than create loads of stuff that doesn't matter anyway because everything is just a bloated mess and nothing really works out.

    What should you get out of this rant of mine? Don't reach for the stars immediately, go for something you can actually do on a satisfying level of quality. You could create an instanced small-scale multiplayer RPG (something like Vindictus [I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong here]), for instance (sorry for the bad pun). It's not that much of a loss compared to a MMORPG, but it's way easier to create and refine. Don't build large-overhead stuff like MMORPGs if you aren't skilled/experienced/wealthy/... enough to capitalize on the benefits over the small(er)-overhead alternatives.
    To be blunt, I don't care that you think me unqualified. Your thoughts aren't what get results. We'll put out a product, and it'll either be good, or it will suck. Why not wait and see? Heck - The 'damage' (the money) is already done and gone, and we're not asking for anything more, so there's no risk involved. It's literally wait and watch. If we fail, then you have my permission to laugh as long and hard as you want. Until then, you're just wasting your time weighing in.

  18. #5778
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    To be blunt, I don't care that you think me unqualified. Your thoughts aren't what get results. We'll put out a product, and it'll either be good, or it will suck. Why not wait and see? Heck - The 'damage' (the money) is already done and gone, and we're not asking for anything more, so there's no risk involved. It's literally wait and watch. If we fail, then you have my permission to laugh as long and hard as you want. Until then, you're just wasting your time weighing in.
    There we go, you're already showing your true colours. I didn't say you were unqualified, still there remains the fact that good MMORPGs are not easy to create and it's very likely that, if you don't adjust your goals, you will fail like dozens of small studios before you. And no, I will not laugh, I will just facepalm as the next lemming walks off the cliff.

    Edit: Okay, I'm not feeling destructive right now. So instead of snarkily talking back I have decided to give this one last try: Let's say, you want to use Unity. It's not impossible to make an MMORPG with it, but judging from the fact that few have been able to get even 100 players to log into a server without causing issues, it's probably really hard. Not Riemann hypothesis hard, but still hard enough that it's not worth it for a small studio like yours. Let's face it, you're not on Blizzard's level or even that of the guys Azrile mentioned way earlier in this thread as an example of a studio actually making progress creating an MMORPG using Unity (I don't recall their name, but they were extremely experienced and skilled developers). You're way better off being able to put more thought into the actual game as opposed to wasting your time trying to work around Unity's limits.
    I'm not a backer nor do I want to "protect people from being scammed", "take up pitchforks" etc.. It's for your own sake. But whatever, you shouldn't listen to "stupid people" like me.
    Last edited by mmoc3d54d38601; 2015-04-08 at 09:30 PM.

  19. #5779
    Um...that damage will involve the reputation of your (new) company and all the individuals involved/employed by the company. You pick up a 'damaged' project (and don't care if it fails?!). What if it fails: the company and employees are seen as incompetent attempting to do much more than they are capable of and will likely damage their future carreer (reputation-wise). Or is the intent to make the project succeed, and appear to make a 'broken' product whole and be the hero to do that (despite stating it doesn't matter if it sucks/fails...)?

    I think the purpose Azrile makes in this entire thread is to show that there are game devs that are clueless as to how to develop an MMORPG. And that those devs refuse to learn what it takes. And refuse to see what they are doing wrong. And refuse to research what will/not work. And refuse to see if their game is even feasible to be an MMORPG (networking and performance wise).

    We have seen FC with toa and all their CEO-dev-ideamen claiming lots, but none of those claims were substantiated, and was revealed they had no dev skills and were practically lying for years (and not just about progress); yet 'people' still follow them. We saw them 'brand' an idea, rather than a product (and hide the progress they actually did have); yet people still follow them. A lot of their questionable behavior was revealed; yet people still follow them. We saw their PR team flock to wherever toa was mentioned and pointed out their behavior; yet people still follow them. People (here) are seeing a parallel between these two situations. Is the majority of feedback really positive towards the game production, or was the feedback mainly from 'yes-men' (as seen from toa) rather than an unbiased audience?

    I think that people here want to see if you (and any other devs for GM) can even comprehend the choices that were made in the past, and if any/most/all of the work completed was worthless for an MMORPG.
    Reject common sense to make the impossible possible! ~Kamina, Gurren Lagann

    ...You'll kill my dick?! What the hell does that even mean? I'll kill your dick! ~Grayson Hunt, Bulletstorm

  20. #5780
    Quote Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
    @Azrile

    Just look at how much time you've personally dedicated to taking up a pitchfork to MMOI.
    Sorry, I am confused.. which MMOI? The one you started yesterday, or the one James was a CEO of last year that has Jason on the board of directors.

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