Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Woogs]

Hey guys, sorry for semi-invading your thread here but I guess it's related to the larger idea of crowdfunding video games.

There's current a kickstarter running for a game called Crowfall - http://crowfall.com/#/. They seem to have a solid team, interesting (to me) concepts and realistic ambitions.

Now I've never backed an early access or pre-release game largely due to things like ToA but this is a project is something I'm seriously considering "making the plunge" as such with a strong donation as from what I've read the game looks like something I would seriously enjoy and would love to help make a reality.

There's one big thing though which is making me a bit worried - they recently announced they are building their Mass-PvP MMO with Unity - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1154674 - the same engine that's been slated throughout this thread as being impossible to use for an MMO. Now I work in web development and haven't ever touched games development so the technical aspects of Unity's issues are beyond me but I was wondering if anyone is able to give a bit of a heads up on / help translate the challenges of using Unity and of course - more importantly - is it something that could actually be overcome without seriously putting a project at risk?

Azrile has been the one who says that it is not possible and most have taken his word on it. I did a bit of research and there are a few MMOs that have been made with Unity: Battlestar Galactica Online, FusionFall Online, and probably more. There are a few articles I found that also say it is possible: http://answers.unity3d.com/questions...ith-unity.html and http://mindhammergames.com/index.php...ith-unity.html. I'm not an expert so I and others could be wrong, but we never got proof that it isn't possible.

[lawow74]

Hey guys, sorry for semi-invading your thread here but I guess it's related to the larger idea of crowdfunding video games.

There's current a kickstarter running for a game called Crowfall - http://crowfall.com/#/. They seem to have a solid team, interesting (to me) concepts and realistic ambitions.

Now I've never backed an early access or pre-release game largely due to things like ToA but this is a project is something I'm seriously considering "making the plunge" as such with a strong donation as from what I've read the game looks like something I would seriously enjoy and would love to help make a reality.

There's one big thing though which is making me a bit worried - they recently announced they are building their Mass-PvP MMO with Unity - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1154674 - the same engine that's been slated throughout this thread as being impossible to use for an MMO. Now I work in web development and haven't ever touched games development so the technical aspects of Unity's issues are beyond me but I was wondering if anyone is able to give a bit of a heads up on / help translate the challenges of using Unity and of course - more importantly - is it something that could actually be overcome without seriously putting a project at risk?

Can't speak to the feasability, but there is a Crowfall thread on the forum here. Try asking there, you might get a better response.

[Azrile]

There's one big thing though which is making me a bit worried - they recently announced they are building their Mass-PvP MMO with Unity -

Gloria Victis also is using Unity to make their MMORPG. I was both correct and wrong when I talked about it. The truth - nobody has made a MMO ( massively) yet and launched with thousands of players online at the same time. I was wrong when I said it is impossible. The reality is that you can do it if you commit a huge amount of resources and have a team of server techs who rip Unity apart. I can´t quote exact numbers, but from the way I heard it talked about.. Gloria Victis has had around 3 people working on that aspect alone ( server architecture) for over a year. What you cannot do is buy a $90 ´MMO pack´ from the Unity asset store and turn your single player game into a MMORPG... and you can´t use Photon and stuff like to get over 30 concurrent players in a ´MMO´type game... you can get much higher than that with farmville ´multiplayer´ type games... but not with something that most of us would call a MMORPG.

the debate now is with Hero Engine and their lack of updates and their inability or unwillingness to open up their art pipeline. For teams like Crowfall, I think the debate is this.. which is harder.. tearing apart Unity to allow it to be MMO friendly... or using HE which is MMO friendly, but is horrible for adding and updating artwork to your game. There is also some opinion that Hero Engine is going to die if Repopulation doesn´t do really well. Unity is cutting edge, doing updates and adding a ton of features all the time. HE has basically been stagnant for a couple years and doesn´t have anything coming that is impressive. If you go the Unity route, you not only have to have some really impressive tech people who can rip Unity apart, but you also have to buy the Unity source code which is probably around $200k. Unity doesn´t announce the price for open source, but Unreal is $250,000 so Unity is probably around the same.

The other problem just comes with semantics... Is farmville a MMORPG? You will see a lot of people selling stuff claiming they can make a MMORPG.. but what they mean is something like farmville, not something like WOW. Having a leaderboard and the ability to send data to other users is pretty trivial in Unity. Having all calculations done on the server in real time, along with all the predictive behavior necessary for WOW is not the same thing. I mentioned this earlier in this thread. For a true MMORPG, your client, the thing on your computer, should be nothing more than displaying graphics and accepting input from the player. All calculations must be done on the server and communicated rapidly with the clients.

The other thing is just expertise. Crowfall is being run by people who worked on UO and other large MMORPGs...these guys understand waaay better than me all the pitfall involved with making a MMORPG with Unity, for them, the stuff I talked about is probably trivial. ToA had a CEO and Lead dev who had to be taught how to turn on the server and was using a volunteer to work on their server.

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Azrile has been the one who says that it is not possible and most have taken his word on it. I did a bit of research and there are a few MMOs that have been made with Unity: Battlestar Galactica Online, FusionFall Online, and probably more. There are a few articles I found that also say it is possible: http://answers.unity3d.com/questions...ith-unity.html and http://mindhammergames.com/index.php...ith-unity.html. I'm not an expert so I and others could be wrong, but we never got proof that it isn't possible.

semantics.. play those games and tell me if they feel more like WOW, or more like CoD. They are technically MMOs because they have a large amount of players online at the same time. the mindhammergames link you posted has it about right. ( read the part after ´so you don´t want to answer´). But again, the answer is with the individual game. If the game is set up correctly, you can do it pretty easily, but for games like Crowfall, WOW and what ToA had planned, it is a huge and expensive undertaking.

[Woogs]

A lot of fluff for a simple question. Can you use Unity to make a MMO like WOW? Yes; even you admit it now. One of the main points in your argument against ToA was that it was not possible, technically. I'm not a fan of ToA and agree that they were considered a scam on some points, but the foundation of your arguments keep diminishing. It's starting to look like a personal vendetta.

[unholytestament]

A lot of fluff for a simple question.

Funny how in a very technical field such as game development, even more so for a huge undertaking like an MMORPG, that a very technical answer would be required to fully explain how this is not in any way a simple question, no?

[Fliptables]

Yes, you can probably use Unity as the client in your MMORPG, while having another team coding the server software needed.

On a sidenote, you can also build a space shuttle with an empty beercan and launch yourself into space, you just need to add a few items to it.

[Woogs]

Funny how in a very technical field such as game development, even more so for a huge undertaking like an MMORPG, that a very technical answer would be required to fully explain how this is not in any way a simple question, no?

I don't get it. You can use simple statements that validate your point, but can't if they invalidate it. From the beginning one of Azrile's main claims was that "it's impossible to create a MMO with Unity". You only have to read what Azrile last posted to get where I was coming from. He backpedals on the statement and says it is possible if you have the expertise/money to do it, but that was never the argument.

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Yes, you can probably use Unity as the client in your MMORPG, while having another team coding the server software needed.

On a sidenote, you can also build a space shuttle with an empty beercan and launch yourself into space, you just need to add a few items to it.

Yet Azrile cites game that are using Unity to do it. Your analogy doesn't hold up.

[Azrile]

A lot of fluff for a simple question. Can you use Unity to make a MMO like WOW? Yes; even you admit it now. One of the main points in your argument against ToA was that it was not possible, technically. I'm not a fan of ToA and agree that they were considered a scam on some points, but the foundation of your arguments keep diminishing. It's starting to look like a personal vendetta.

1. has anyone made a MMO like WOW using Unity? no
2. has anyone started building a MMO that will be like WOW using Unity? Yes Gloria Victis
3. has anyone started the development process that knows way more than I do and chose Unity to build a MMO like WOW? Yes, Crowfall.

Gloria Victis has thrown a massive amount of time and effort into doing it with decent success, but they still have huge problems with concurrent users and FPS. They are also a team of over 30 people all with degress in computer science. Crowfall is just beyond my paygrade. You are talking about a team of people who helped make UO and other major AAA MMORPGs. I am absolutely sure they know they can do it, which yes, proves me wrong. But they are at a completely different level of skill compared to what we are talking about with ToA

So if you asked me a year ago if you can build a MMO using Unity.. I would say no

If you ask me today if you can build a MMO using Unity.. I would say if you hire the original developers of UO, SWTOR, WOW and/or spend half a million dollars just on that part of the game, then Yes.

I admit I am wrong all the time.. but you are talking about an extreme case when talking about the team making Crowfall and you aren´t talking about ´Unity´ you are talking about people who are using the open source code of Unity to build their own engine.

You cannot download Unity and buy a $70 asset pack from the Unity Asset Store and turn your single player game into a MMORPG.

[lawow74]

Seriously, that guy is 23 years old and thinks that a company will actually give whatever Forged Chaos needs to find people to make their “vision” into a reality. Worst part is, it isn’t only with the fans this happens, Forged Chaos team members ain’t much different, since they were aware of their own lack of skills since the very start and still attempted something such as this… just unbelievable.

I think I hurt my brain trying to read that...I can't even call that grammar, it's an insult to all forms of intelligent communication by association.

So basically he's saying go to CCP and ask them to fund the game. O-kay. Yeah, they're totally in the market for something like that, I'm sure. Cos y'know, EVE Online is a place where everything is hardcore permadeath...

[unholytestament]

I don't get it. You can use simple statements that validate your point, but can't if they invalidate it. From the beginning one of Azrile's main claims was that "it's impossible to create a MMO with Unity". You only have to read what Azrile last posted to get where I was coming from. He backpedals on the statement and says it is possible if you have the expertise/money to do it, but that was never the argument.

FC's lack of expertise and over reliance on purchasing help has always been part of the argument.

[Kelimbror]

FC's lack of expertise and over reliance on purchasing help has always been part of the argument.

Indeed. I think the technical argument is that you can't build an MMO piecemeal via Unity. Essentially you can't buy assets on a forum, slap them in the engine, and push a 'MMOizer Button' and throw up an MMO that works.

[hknt]

Hi, I'm new here and I'ver been following this thread for a while.

First of all I'd like to emphasize I'm not a dev alt. This is goes beyond all doubt because I said it's the truth and therefore it must be so there's absolutely no reason for disbelief, so everything's fine. Truly I'm not an alt and even if you suspect me you have no proof, therefore it's completly not true. Because even if my activity may seem suspicious off the scale and there are hundred reasons to doubt me, as long as there is no court presentable evidence all suspicion is reseted to zero and there's no basis for being wary around me, right? RIGHT? Because even if shadyness is on 99% lack of hard evidence evidence means it's 100% legit.

Now that we all agree I'm beyond all doubt a regular person and not an alt (because there's no proof otherwise) all suspicion is reseted to zero (because there's no proof and I have Power Word: Lawsuit in my spellbook) and I most certainly have no ties to ToA project (because there's no proof and remember - the court is always waiting) I'll comment on this situation as a completly regular, totally not suspicious-at-all bystander:

1) Azrile - I seriosuly hate you for what you've done. This thread was filled to the brim with justified concerns about validity of ToA, and you've flushed it into toilet with your "I've proof" and then backing out. Even though no evidence (in legal, very definite absolute meaning) was gathered here, the amount of concerns through THOUSANDS of posts beefed up the level of suspiciousness of the "project" to a steady 99/100. Even without hard evidence anyone looking could quickly draw conclusions.

And then you made this thread into a joke. Not just your own accusations, but entire thread and everyone was reduced to a bunch of "slander" and "naysaying". Dev alts and their kool aiders couldn't been happier with your gift. I mean sure, they would've blamed this thread one way or the other, but this just "makes" mmoc the hypocrite.
Seriously man, screw you! Screw you sideways with a dual shielded spider on a noodle beach!

In a wooden house!

2) Collecting money under promises that you have no at least borderline-realistical means of delivering is a SCAM. The motivations behind it are of no consequence, whether it's ill intent or pipe dream fuelled by narcissitic imbecilism - it doesn't mean jack squat. After one failed attempt call it naivety, after many years without bothering to learn coding for your PROGRAM when it takes teams of 50+ skilled people to complete a MMORPG, all the while asking for more and more money, when it should be returned with an apology for ignorant mistake is- whaaat...? What do you call that, hmmm?
Don't let any of the "marketing directors" present on this thread deter you from this dead obvious truth.

3) "You've no proof" is a defence used by every criminal on Earth whenever the noose tightens around their neck. 12 years of minimal transparency after which we get a message saying "we never had the skills to do this project" how the hell do you call that? Legit practice? Well no hard evidence present so it's 100% legit I guess.

4) Likely there'll be a return, under some new flag since the previous one got burned entirely. So stay vigilant people, there's more to come.

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

Is this real life? What just happened...

[lawow74]

Seriously man, screw you! Screw you sideways with a dual shielded spider on a noodle beach!

In a wooden house!

Nicely said. 10/10 would read posts again. Welcome aboard, enjoy the show.

[Juvencus]

I have no clue what the fuck I just read, still, I enjoyed it far more then Twilight.

Can't decide if it's sarcasm, irony, joking, trolling, contradictory or convoluted.

[Woogs]

FC's lack of expertise and over reliance on purchasing help has always been part of the argument.

That was never the point I was arguing, and you are sidestepping a bit. What is the difference between my blanket statement "You can create a MMO in Unity" vs "You can't create a MMO in Unity"? One is correct and even acknowledged by your original source, Azrile. Even if they planned to outsource the entirety of their game, to say that you can't create a MMO in Unity is entirely false.

I've been following this thread for quite awhile and never responded because there wasn't anything to respond to personally ... until Azrile's total backpedal on most of the claims he initially made. He made claims that manifested into nothing. If you can't hold him accountable for his claims then you are just as bad as the "kool-aid drinkers" over at ToA.

[Deleted]

So after reading Android and Fornax's posts over there. Android do you feel that was being 'transparent' as Brax claimed? I don't know how you can't just lay into Brax after that wall of shame of a post where he 'accepted blame but TOTALLY didn't finger point all over'. And Fornax Do you also think that was being 'transparent'? And that it was totally okay for a game "dev" to go after a poster in the MMO-C thread who shed light on the many bullshit things they are doing? I mean damn sign me up for Brax as CEO of the year for public relations.

I was just happy that he replied at all. For what it's worth, I don't buy anything he says anymore. Like ToA, it's very flowery and optimistic but with little substance. I don't think we'll ever fully get to know what the real story that happened, a bit like how a company that has been involved in something controversial (IDK like the BP Oil Spill) will always only partially tell the truth to put them in the best light possible.

[Azrile]

Can't decide if it's sarcasm, irony, joking, trolling, contradictory or convoluted.

Nah, he is saying the truth. If I had never mentioned ´proof´ about the dev- alts and just did some links to some crazy posts this thread would have been much better off. And he is absolutely right, my lack of ´proof´ hurts the credibility of this thread. He is saying he hates me because I diminish an otherwise awesome endeavor. He is right. Hate justified, I accept it.

I will counter with this. My ´proof´ changed the game. Because I said I had proof, and they knew I had proof, their forums changed and their youtube changed. People like Priest, Fornax and Andriod were no longer getting overwhelmed with ´omg, the devs are the greatest evah´ threads when they presented their critical posts. I read a lot of Priests posts from back before the first KS and he made some good points.. but his threads were immediately filled with 99 posts saying he was wrong and praise for the devs.

[unholytestament]

That was never the point I was arguing,

And that is why no one should care.

The point you are arguing does not exist in a vacuum. There is a lot to this argument, it is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

[Woogs]

And that is why no one should care.

The point you are arguing does not exist in a vacuum. There is a lot to this argument, it is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

I'm not saying my argument exists in a vacuum. Did the initial statement of "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" exist in a vacuum? All I am saying is, that initial statement was false. You like to quote a fraction of a sentence and then spew non-sense. All I ask is that you prove "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" wrong? If not, you are wasting both of our times.

A dwarf walks into the meeting room, shouldering a massive axe. He points at unholytestament.-Oh stop your flaming ya bloody daft bastard. Had it right up to 'ere with you. -the dwarf reaches as high as he can- Critiquing and advising be one thing, good sur, but what you be doing is on a 'ole 'nother level. Now, either be civil like or get ou'. An' if ye won't civilize your self, or leave peacefully, -looks pleasantly at the axe- I can always use me good old axe.