Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Harris34]

To be fair for Fornax's comment that the events from the second KS may be the worst out of everything...

They did actually have a 'game' in the form of their tech demo (regardless of the quality or condition of the demo). The blunder is is that they did not show anything gameplay related, or from the demo at all, to anyone (that didn't pay $500 for demo access or whatever), especially when promoting toa to outside sources and the public and through KS (and of course timing of the KS and all that stuff too). I mean, they had something, but didn't (want to?) reveal or promote or showcase it...? That Fornax's, and others, funds were utilized to create that demo, yet the demo itself, or any footage, was never utilized for toa and its promotion for the KS. That the one thing they have for obvious proof of concept and an actual playable 'game' world, yet do not provide it when it is most needed.

I mean, it is one thing if Brax (and others) lies to their fans and other people. But how exactly can they explain this situation, when there is actual proof of content being created?

When they relaunched a couple years ago, I gave them plenty of shit about how they never proved they could make anything, so why would we support them now. I told them, release a video of the alpha you guys said you made back in the SP days. At least that would show proof you could make something. Say look what we tried to do back then but didn't have the means to do, now with new tech we have come back to complete our vision. There is NO REASON that they shouldn't have released proof of the work from back in SP days if they actually HAD anything to show. The whole "keeping our vision/IP safe from being stolen" argument just wasn't holding water anymore (a lot of games have used similar systems that SP/FC was going for already, to both positive and negative effect).

At least at that point they would have had SOME level of credibility. They have still yet to directly address what happened to the old game they apparently would show to investors. Of course that didn't stop people from donating anyway.

[Kyanion]

In response to a post about a person stopping posting on the forums and basically leaving the community we get this gem: "So, bye bye to any quitters, you won't be missed since we know you will be back You can doubt me on that all you like, go find another game that beats ToA's standards for game mechanics and is even as far along towards release (ok, fantasy games, Star Citizen does have gazillions of funding dollars to force it to market.)"

Toa's standards for game mechanics? Mindless sword swinging in front of you? umm any game is farther along in being released than a game with 3 CEOs who only know how to turn on the server.

[Maddoc]

I was actually a bit sad when the KS2 failed, the ToA forums became silent and Brax announced they would come back with more after a short break. Then Devalt #59 pops up and Azrile strikes gold. If MMO-champ ever has a poll for best thread ever, this is getting my vote.

[dextersmith]

This Talon-thorn guy really scares me. Here is some old fan-fic he made on Brax as a figure in ToA.

The blade of Brax is covered in blood; his victims do not see nor hear his coming; he is like a shadow in the night ...

- Talon-thorn

True in many ways.

[lawow74]

Toa's standards for game mechanics? Mindless sword swinging in front of you? umm any game is farther along in being released than a game with 3 CEOs who only know how to turn on the server.

To be fair, he means standards for ideals in game mechanics, i.e. hardcore permadeath no handholding skill-based blah blah blah yakkity-schmakkity. Sure, maybe no other game holds to those exact 'uber' standards, but I'm willing to bet someone who did want to make that and actually tried instead of sitting around going 'developing is hard give us money so we can pay someone else to do all the work' could be further along in a year than these worthless fools are in twelve.

[Fornax-]

I think you should cut Fornax some slack here Azrile. The only thing he's saying is that he doesn't feel it was a scam, and to be completely fair, there -is- a tiny bit of wiggle room for a plausible argument of "incompetent but not malicious".

I believe the Three Stooges were both incompetent and malicious however, particularly in light of this additional history. Sure, a demo was (eventually) made, but there's a lot of that $67k that isn't accounted for, at least not with that list of excuses Brax gave; certainly not after Teddy clarified his compensation. The malice part for me is knowing that they have -zero- qualms about lying to, misleading and misdirecting their fanbase, who want so much to see this game get made.

Even for those with no financial capital sunk into this morass, there certainly appears to be a lot of emotional investment. No one likes being wrong, nor being taken for a ride. We should save our ire for those who really deserve it.

Appreciate this. Thanks. I am living proof that a fool and his money are soon parted. I feel worse for those who weren't in a position like mine and who didn't have a lot of extra income. But all of it is money spent foolishly.

You're right, I was far more emotionally invested than I was financially. I will give you guys another tidbit that bugged me. Recently, I threw away the CLOTH MAP of their world that they actually made AND SENT OUT, BEFORE the virtual world was even created. I mean....it was an actual reward for those of who donated at a certain level, but wtf? I remember hating it, both because it was badly done in my opinion, and it was the cart before the horse. Christ, I remember complaining about it right away, and there was fanboy blowback at me for not being positive. I actually toned down some of my complaints to avoid BS. One post, I actually deleted. I shouldn't have, looking back I it now.

I had to correct Varl's descriptions of tributaries and waterways, because (at least based on how things were described in the "lore") he didn't understand that water flowed downhill, and the tributaries join rivers for the most part, not the reverse. They also had a major mistake in their zone descriptions that I was able to help them fix in the lore, but all of this was AFTER they had the freaking CLOTH MAP made!

It's shit like this that tells me it was like kids playing house. Guys "playing devs". They just really didn't get it. Obviously, I didn't either, but I wasn't trying to tell people I could. Anyway. It's pathetic more than it is malicious.

[Deleted]

How was the quality of that anyway? Was it good? Aside from the various mistakes, did it look professional? And how large was it? Did you also order any other merchandise like that coin? I'm merely curious.

It kinda makes me remember the map I got when I bought Oblivion many years ago. Was quite cool to have it. I see no issues with selling physical merchandise. My issue was all the virtual crap. I also still laugh when I picture Bowen with the FC cap.

[lawow74]

Recently, I threw away the CLOTH MAP of their world that they actually made AND SENT OUT, BEFORE the virtual world was even created. I mean....it was an actual reward for those of who donated at a certain level, but wtf? I remember hating it, both because it was badly done in my opinion, and it was the cart before the horse.

We've talked about that many times before, the 'toilet paper dev notes' phenomenon. They make all these high idealized posts about how things will be and encourage if not outright fabricate discussions about shit no game designer would ever think to waste time on cos they're busy trying to actually MAKE a game and not just draw up a bunch of concepts.

But that's because it's comparatively easy to sit there and write all that stuff down. And that's all they've ever concerned themselves with, the easy stuff and money to pay someone else to do the hard stuff.

[Sunaka]

If it makes you feel any better, I spoke with Teddy a little. I shouldn't say much but, it wasn't entirely a waste =P

Careful of the forthcoming floodgate-opening.

[Fornax-]

How was the quality of that anyway? Was it good? Aside from the various mistakes, did it look professional? And how large was it? Did you also order any other merchandise like that coin? I'm merely curious.

It kinda makes me remember the map I got when I bought Oblivion many years ago. Was quite cool to have it. I see no issues with selling physical merchandise. My issue was all the virtual crap. I also still laugh when I picture Bowen with the FC cap.

The actual fabric was quite good. Good color, too. I just didn't like the layout, nor the design of the world. Just seemed like a big square with a lake and then a swamp and then a desert.

[Azrile]

Ultima 4 and I think the original Ultima Online box came with a cloth map. Ultima 4 even came with a little metal ankh thingie. But yeah, that was in the box for a released game, not as a pre-pre-alpha reward for donors. I think they knew they couldn´t actually make the game, so they did all of the PR and marketing stuff to the extreme. That was just a crap-ton of IRC chats and a huge waste of time talking about detailed stuff for a game so early.

We have already changed our map in fairly major ways 3 or 4 different times. It is impossible to draw it on paper or even 3d model it and think you are done. Until you are running around on it as a life-sized player, there are things you never would think would be a problem that just pop up. Most players don´t realize how constrained game development is by performance. If you see an early alpha map of a game, more than likely the real map will have more drastic height differences just to block vision and increase FPS.

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The actual fabric was quite good. Good color, too. I just didn't like the layout, nor the design of the world. Just seemed like a big square with a lake and then a swamp and then a desert.

seriously.. put it on ebay. When this is all said and done.. this thread alone would probably help you get some of your money back. I mean at this point, I would buy it for $20 and take a selfie next to it just to make a forum sig here.

[Taojnhy]

I see no issues with selling physical merchandise. My issue was all the virtual crap.

I have issues with FC selling physical merchandise that it used fundraising monies intended for game development to purchase.

[dextersmith]

To be fair for Fornax's comment that the events from the second KS may be the worst out of everything...

They did actually have a 'game' in the form of their tech demo (regardless of the quality or condition of the demo). The blunder is is that they did not show anything gameplay related, or from the demo at all, to anyone (that didn't pay $500 for demo access or whatever), especially when promoting toa to outside sources and the public and through KS (and of course timing of the KS and all that stuff too). I mean, they had something, but didn't (want to?) reveal or promote or showcase it...? That Fornax's, and others, funds were utilized to create that demo, yet the demo itself, or any footage, was never utilized for toa and its promotion for the KS. That the one thing they have for obvious proof of concept and an actual playable 'game' world, yet do not provide it when it is most needed.

I mean, it is one thing if Brax (and others) lies to their fans and other people. But how exactly can they explain this situation, when there is actual proof of content being created?

So what was the demo intended for?

[lawow74]

So what was the demo intended for?

At this point, it would seem to fulfill legal obligations. Look how many times Brax has stated they 'did what they set out to do'. Of course the Kool-Aid drinkers will all claim it's proof ToA is a really reals game that's totally gonna come out, which is what the Three Stooges want them to claim cos it gives them a herd of sheep to keep trying to fleece in the coming months/years they hold onto this 'game'.

[dextersmith]

And that is why the fans that still support them are insane. Let us just make some absurd assumptions. Let´s assume that it is possible for 3 CEOs with no skills to make a MMORPG. Let´s make the assumption that they raise enough money to actually hire some decent workers.

What in the past of these three idiots would lead anyone to believe that they could manage the project? They have literally screwed up everything since this all started. The fans gave them almost double the amount the said they need to make a demo video.. and they produced absolute garbage. They spent $67,000 to fundraise $28,000 and even though Teddy did some decent work, the three stoogies completely destroyed their own KS. They have twice now had a mass exodus of people who work with them. Xanword was pretty obvious with his lashing out at Brax´s abilities, and Teddy probably was a little more restrained, but you have to believe his comment about turning on the server was made for our amusement. They bought all kinda crap they didn´t need, or that didn´t work. If you can´t manage money, and you can´t manage people.... why does anyone think these three nobodies could actually make a game if given the proper money or workers. You would just end up with a larger version of their KS#2, where they have everything they need, yet still manage to screw it all up.

So money guy can't manage money, art guy - wtf was he capable of??? Head guy can't manage the game or peons, yet few fans saw red flags. 3 CEOs, not CFO, COO.... just 3 idiots shitting in 1 seat yet there were no red flags.

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At this point, it would seem to fulfill legal obligations. Look how many times Brax has stated they 'did what they set out to do'. Of course the Kool-Aid drinkers will all claim it's proof ToA is a really reals game that's totally gonna come out, which is what the Three Stooges want them to claim cos it gives them a herd of sheep to keep trying to fleece in the coming months/years they hold onto this 'game'.

They haven't fulfilled it yet. They needed $40k for a demo so they asked for $40k, but delivered a $30k demo cause they only accounted for $30k (and that's without receipts too). You wouldn't be able to do that with government money; pocketing any money would be embezzlement. We were told Teddy was the only paid staff member so no FC staff or CEO can pocket it.

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I had to correct Varl's descriptions of tributaries and waterways, because (at least based on how things were described in the "lore") he didn't understand that water flowed downhill, and the tributaries join rivers for the most part, not the reverse. They also had a major mistake in their zone descriptions that I was able to help them fix in the lore, but all of this was AFTER they had the freaking CLOTH MAP made!

This is gold!

[Deleted]

Since we've chatted before about one man in Unity, anybody see this student-made HD remake of the first level from Mario 64 - apparently re-created to show off his custom character controller he developed or something?

https://roystanross.wordpress.com/super-mario-64-hd/

It's pretty damn perfect, plays in the browser so no downloads necessary (apart from Unity Web Player if you don't have it). Obviously it's micro-scale compared to an MMO, but if this guy opened a kickstarter tomorrow to make a mario-like and used this as a proof of his skills I would totally give him money based on how well that demo controls.

[Azrile]

Since we've chatted before about one man in Unity, anybody see this student-made HD remake of the first level from Mario 64 - apparently re-created to show off his custom character controller he developed or something?

https://roystanross.wordpress.com/super-mario-64-hd/

It's pretty damn perfect, plays in the browser so no downloads necessary (apart from Unity Web Player if you don't have it). Obviously it's micro-scale compared to an MMO, but if this guy opened a kickstarter tomorrow to make a mario-like and used this as a proof of his skills I would totally give him money based on how well that demo controls.

haha, that is freaking awesome. He absolutely nailed the controller and camera.

[Deleted]

FC just needs to quit now. This is just getting ridiculous. They have comically botched this up so badly that its almost like watching someone attempt drill through a mountain with a single, cooked piece of spaghetti. Perhaps that's where the noodle beach came from.

Either way, I'm just sick and tired of this now. I saw another forum member quit and someone else turn round and say "they won't be missed because when ToA is released they'll be back"....these people need a serious reality check. The devs are seemingly beyond measure...but at least if nobody believes in their game they won't still try to make it...right?

[Sunaka]

Since we've chatted before about one man in Unity, anybody see this student-made HD remake of the first level from Mario 64 - apparently re-created to show off his custom character controller he developed or something?

https://roystanross.wordpress.com/super-mario-64-hd/

It's pretty damn perfect, plays in the browser so no downloads necessary (apart from Unity Web Player if you don't have it). Obviously it's micro-scale compared to an MMO, but if this guy opened a kickstarter tomorrow to make a mario-like and used this as a proof of his skills I would totally give him money based on how well that demo controls.

How many decades or Kickstarters did it take for him to make this? It looks like they had to have at least...5 Teddys.

[Azrile]

FC just needs to quit now. This is just getting ridiculous.

Don´t lose faith brother, Brax has a plan that he is going to reveal shortly.

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How many decades or Kickstarters did it take for him to make this? It looks like they had to have at least...5 Teddys.

You know what the crazy part is.. I just really took time to look at his site.. the guy actually makes the entire source of the project downloadable. So you could open the game in Unity and tinker with it. ToA on the other hands, still has an NDA up for crap that was broken 10 years ago.