Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[jrhager84]

In which part am I in the minority? You think I'm in the minority in thinking that game looks like a pile of crap? Because I saw the 'gameplay' video and holy crap that was just awful. If that isn't it, am I in the minority in thinking the game is dead? Nope. Am I am in the minority in thinking getting *something* to the people that backed the KS instead of you know a legit game is okay? Because I'm sorry, what is going to come out of this with no more funding? A wonderful MMO that people can't wait to play or a game that gets cancelled or is just terrible when it is released.

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Also, I really DO think you just need to shut up and make the game even if that does not mean YOU personally go and make any part of it. But to have these talking heads that are associated with this game rush to defend things or post to 'clear the air' or whatever it is actually HURT more than they help. You know what people WANT to see? People busting their ass working hard to get this game out. They really don't care about people posting in threads, or defending this and that.

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"We're not asking for any more money; At least not from the public. Any funding will be done from a business perspective, and won't cost any consumer a penny." You think game dev companies are going to back this project? Where is this funding going to come from? You have as much chance as getting a dime of funding as ToA does, which is no chance at all.

Your opinions are noted. Not much else to say at this point. You seem to take my points very personally, and for that I apologize.

I'm glad I don't share the same bleak vision as you in regards to this acquisition. I meant you're the minority, as the majority of feedback I've seen personally has been a LOT more positive than your remarks. Even the negative has been constructive, and has helped us move forward. There really isn't anything resembling legitimate critique in your responses, really. You hate the game. Ok. Noted. We're making it better. You think we're doomed. Great. I disagree. You think I should shut up. Perfect. Not gonna happen, but certainly noted. I also find it a bit funny that you seem to be the self-appointed spokesperson for all of the community, when I've spoken to our most vitriolic critics, and have had different responses. Is there anything constructive you'd like to add? At this point, it just looks like you're taking pot-shots, which are not helpful, and only serve as a distraction.

Hopefully our dialogue can take a more constructive approach. Otherwise, we're just wasting each others' time. I'd hate to do that.

-Joel

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Well Joel, for what it's worth I wish you the best of luck getting GM off of the ground. I'm not sure how you plan to accomplish that task though since as far as we've been able to dig up, Mr. Proctor has yet to release a complete product with or without your guidance, including the project you mentioned above (Rise of Heroes, I assume?). Hopefully you know him well enough by now to know how best to motivate and keep him on track.

Another point that bears repeating: in three years time, the only tangible thing the GM community has seen was that recent video which, to put it kindly, didn't appear to be have been worth the delay. I understand that you're looking to bring more help on board, but considering that Mr. Proctor has previously both a) chased off hired help and b) personally recommended hiring at least one person who was something of a scam artist, I really hope you have a plan to handle this as well.

I'm sure he's a great person once you really get to know him but personally I wouldn't trust Mr. Proctor to run a lemonade stand let alone handle any kind of management position for a company; my opinion of him is that he's about as stable as nitroglycerin and has the judgmental prowess of a sponge.

I do wish you all the best though Joel; you've got a long and uphill road ahead. I appreciate that you took the time to post here, and I suppose we'll just have to see if MMO Interactive can pull GM off to the general satisfaction of the community.

Absolutely, Tao. James has never had a forte in business, and I think the disconnect was that maybe Jason was leaning a bit too much on him to keep things moving. I'm *VERY* business-oriented, so our skillsets overlap perfectly in this regard. It's MY job to make sure that we stay on task, and that we don't make any unnecessary movements that cost money or time.

To be completely honest, the ONLY reason RoH didn't get off the ground, was because we didn't want to ask for money for something we couldn't show to people -- Pretty much the opposite of how GM was handled. We wanted the marketing to *support* the product, not the other way around. We had a GREAT team behind us, and the only obstacle was that without funding, our amazingly-talented employees were being poached by more-established companies that could pay more. Since James and I respect personal growth and development above all else, we couldn't blame a person for pursuing their dreams by moving on to a better-paying gig. We wished them well, and James got an offer for GM, and we decided to shelve it for now. It was never abandoned; It was just put aside, so that James could focus on GM, as I was pursuing other business ventures at the time as well. It was just a good hiatus for all parties involved.

I appreciate the kind words. I've been very fortunate in that only a very small group of vocal individuals has been inflammatory. Most understand that people make mistakes. I mean -- Imagine putting work into something, to have the community lash out? It's a very humbling experience, and I'm sure that if the biggest critics had ever experienced this type of failure personally, might be apt to being a bit more empathetic in this regard. I can't stress enough that James could have walked away from this and had ZERO repercussions. Yet, here we stand, going toe-to-toe with all who criticize us, taking our licks, and moving forward.

I don't know of many people that would have the integrity to step in and try to fix something, not because it was profitable; but because it was the right thing to do. We are literally walking into a sh*tstorm, ONLY because we have an undying commitment to produce a game to the backers. We're not asking for accolades. We're not asking for an applause, or even more money. We're only asking for a chance. A chance to turn this thing around, and make the money spent *not* a complete waste of money.

If we finish this game, and you don't like it, that's fine. At least we finished it. And we're going to do EVERYTHING in our power to make it the best game we can. We're no AAA studio, but I think if we listen to the community, push forward, and re-establish some trust with the consumers and studios, that we'll be able to make this a Cinderella story. Time will tell. As always:

Best,

-Joel

[Kyanion]

I don't mean shut up in the literal sense of shutting your trap, I mean shutting up as in addressing various posts from people on forums. It is okay to speak about what is going on with the game and explaining what it is you guys are doing, but after that it needs to be time to focus on the game and only talk when you are showing the work that is being done.

I have no personal issues with you as I do not know you and have only read a little in this whole situation. I don't know what 'vitriolic critics' you have spoken with but if you think talking to them will make everything better then you will be quite surprised. You guys have a game that has been in development for 3 years and released this gameplay video in what, January that isn't even close to being ready for an alpha.

If you haven't read this thread (and I know its a ton of posts) then you wouldn't have seen the many pitfalls and mistakes of the Forged Chaos company. One of the many mistakes they had was the devs would speak far too often on things that had nothing to do with the game itself. You want to get people interested in the game and talking about....show the game off, get people working hard to make something worth playing. GM does not have that so instead it is plenty of talking and that will just piss off the community even more.

And finally I am hardly the self-appointed spokesperson for this community. There are plenty of other people in these forums that do a wonderful job of that and I have far more posts and watch this type of thing much more closely than I do.

[Azrile]

the image of the brand is VITAL to our success, and it's very advantageous for us to publicly announce the change in leadership regarding GM

Again, you are missing the point. Everyone has read James´ chat logs, everyone has seen the January demo, for 3 years everyone has known James is the one making the game. Yes, everyone hates Jason, but at the end of the day, you still have the guy who produced that crap video after 3 years. You are not changing leadership. In fact, James has in the past talked about taking over leadership from Jason.

You guys seriously sound too much like ToA at this point.. ´industry contacts, other studios' You guys take yourself waaaay to seriously. You have one developer who lives with his mother while collecting disability for mental illness, and who in 3 years produced a video that looks beyond horrible. But yes, I am sure there are studios and industry contacts just knocking down your door to help you produce a game out of an IP that doesn´t exist. Just show them that video, they will probably the throwing money at you.

And no amount of talking or posting on forums is going to do anything to repair your ´brand´. That is what we are trying to say, people have listened to James lie for 3 years about the great progress he was making and the ´great´things to come soon. Remember, He is the one that caused the final deathspin when he released the video in January and people actually saw his progress. People aren´t going to care what you or he say until there is actually a freakin game that looks playable. People have been listening to James talk for 3 years, I think the January video lost him any credibility he had, and if there was any left, his chat logs finished it.

Also, just curious, is MMOI actually a legal company now. Last year James was talking about it a lot, and stuff with putting Jason on the board of directors, and that James would be running the show.. and people did some digging and found out that there was no such company as MMOI and there was also some discussion about James´s disability while being CEO of a company and how he can collect disability while being CEO? You really should deal with James´s disability issue, because all you need is one angry KS backer and James is going to end up with a lot of legal problems.

I should have you know that we've finally gotten the remainder of the server data from Jason, and are setting up our own dedicated server this week. We've also since ported the code to Unity 5, and are awaiting a UMA Avatar system update to polish the networking framework. That should be available for inclusion in our client by end of April. There *has* been progress, but we're stuck in the cycle of making sure we put out a game that *looks* good using tech that we can afford.

This is exactly James. There is always some ´update´from someone else you are waiting for to magically put everything in place, it is coming in a few weeks. For 3 years he has made that exact statement a multitude of things. But besides that, I have no idea what you are talking about with UMA2, UMA2 has been available on github for months. https://github.com/huika/UMA, but in reality, that has very little to do with anything in regards to networking. You can use better shaders for your characters and a few other nice things, but nothing that will make that January video any different. But meh, in 3 weeks James will make a post about how UMA screwed up everything, it is all their fault, but fear not, a few weeks a new thing will make things all better.

I appreciate the kind words. I've been very fortunate in that only a very small group of vocal individuals has been inflammatory.

I guess so. Your forums have 6 people that have posted in the past 2 days. ( not including yourself and James). The game died in January.

[Kyanion]

Basically my point was just made by Azrile there. You guys are making the exact same comedy of errors that ToA did. You guys are a small time rinky-dink outfit that won't be taken serious by real game dev companies. The KS money is gone and you won't be using fan money (not that you'd get much more) and so you plan on getting this backed by a real company?

The 'image' this company has is beyond repair by using words to talk about what you 'plan' to do. Until a REAL playable version of the game comes out it is just that, words. That gameplay crap from January was the most tragic thing I've seen in some time, and I saw the 'combat' demo video for ToA.

[jrhager84]

The papers have been filed for MMOI from me. I should get the documentation in the next week. I am the registrar. I also made no claim that studios were 'knocking down our doors' to become involved. It has been made by reaching out, and admitting that we've made mistakes, and they've seen that we want to make good on promises, and have graciously offered their help/services/contacts/etc. This also is because over the years, we've established contacts that trust and believe in us. I'm absolutely sympathetic to those from the outside that see the strife in GM. I would NEVER attempt to discredit somebody's feelings. All I can say is that we've heard you guys, loud and clear, and we're working towards fixing these things.

Jason is also NOT involved in MMOI, nor will he ever be. James knows where he's gone wrong, as I've chastised him in the recent weeks. We've even restructured how we're doing things, and James will NOT be the sole programmer anymore. We're evaluating his strengths, and utilizing him in this fashion. We're also making sure that we have the people needed to complete this game, and that they are compensated for their efforts. There will be NO 'free' work anymore. People deserve compensation if you use their services, and we're working towards a dynamic that allows us to do just that.

[Azrile]

Seriously, I feel so bad for Teddy.. we gave him so much crap for that combat video, which he did in just a couple of months with no money.

But hey, UMA2 will cure everything.

[jrhager84]

Basically my point was just made by Azrile there. You guys are making the exact same comedy of errors that ToA did. You guys are a small time rinky-dink outfit that won't be taken serious by real game dev companies. The KS money is gone and you won't be using fan money (not that you'd get much more) and so you plan on getting this backed by a real company?

The 'image' this company has is beyond repair by using words to talk about what you 'plan' to do. Until a REAL playable version of the game comes out it is just that, words. That gameplay crap from January was the most tragic thing I've seen in some time, and I saw the 'combat' demo video for ToA.

To be clear -- The damaged image is GreedMonger, not MMOI. MMOI acquired the brand, and we hope to show through releases that we're making progress. You are correct though, that pretty much everything is just 'talk' at this point. I wish I had more answers. All I can say is behind the scenes we're working. I really do look forward to the day where you can say 'Hey, for what it's worth, you guys really did show us something.' Whether or not you like it or hate it, I can't wait for that day.

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I'll have you know that I have proposed a workaround for our issue with Atavism in regards to U5 compatibility, and we're working on getting something together. I understand your skepticism, but give me some time to get things together. Then, if we fail, you'll have carte blache in regards to ripping me a new one. Deal?

[Azrile]

The papers have been filed for MMOI from me.

So, when James was talking about being the CEO of MMOI and having a board of directors? just a little fib? You know he was saying that to reassure people that Jason was not in control anymore... small fib, huh. Amazong how many small fibs he has made to keep this thing from blowing up years ago...

Come on.. and let me guess.. you have a 5-man social media team already in place.

And we come back to ToA. You are in the exact same situation. You have very little code done, you have an IP that has so much negativity wrapped around it that it is less than zero at this point. At this point, both GreedMonger and ToA would be better off if you just completely turned off the lights, moved next door and started over with a new game and fake names.

If you ask any competent developer if they would take GM or ToA for free, they would all say no. ( although to be honest, I would take GM just because of some of the software licenses Jason bought would be useful for other games). At this point, even if a real dev team made either game exactly how is was described 3 years ago, your entire launch and marketing would be nothing except talking about the crap that happened in the past.

[draykorinee]

For me GM is DoA, I really wanted to back it in the KS but never did, now, I can't see me going anywhere near it. Good luck, you're going to seriously need it.

[Kyanion]

So, when James was talking about being the CEO of MMOI and having a board of directors? just a little fib? You know he was saying that to reassure people that Jason was not in control anymore... small fib, huh. Amazong how many small fibs he has made to keep this thing from blowing up years ago...

Come on.. and let me guess.. you have a 5-man social media team already in place.

And we come back to ToA. You are in the exact same situation. You have very little code done, you have an IP that has so much negativity wrapped around it that it is less than zero at this point. At this point, both GreedMonger and ToA would be better off if you just completely turned off the lights, moved next door and started over with a new game and fake names.

If you ask any competent developer if they would take GM or ToA for free, they would all say no. ( although to be honest, I would take GM just because of some of the software licenses Jason bought would be useful for other games). At this point, even if a real dev team made either game exactly how is was described 3 years ago, your entire launch and marketing would be nothing except talking about the crap that happened in the past.

Bro bro bro, they are going to have MORE than 1 programmer so that social media team will be 10 people strong! Heh so this jrhager guy is the CEO of a company that isn't even officially formed yet (paperwork all done and stuff). Good luck MMOI and GM. You will need it.

[jrhager84]

No - Not entirely. We were going to file when things were getting more serious, but then people got poached, and it made no sense to put up a vapor company at that point, especially since Jason offered James a job at EGC. Remember - If you're actively looking for controversy, you're gonna find it hints of it somewhere.

Again - You're looking at it from the wrong angle. James is already wrapped up in it. He's not escaping it. It's not about money. This is about getting something out. You're absolutely free to hate it. You don't have to like us. I'd like to think that we at least get a *little* credit for not abandoning the backers, and taking the heat and moving forward. It's like one hand of the argument you blame us for making a crap game, and on the other hand you blame us for sticking around. Which is it? Would you rather we walk away and leave everybody empty-handed? I personally would appreciate a crap game made to the best of somebody's abilities over nothing because somebody walked away when it became difficult. I suppose that's a matter of personal perception.

Also - No. there's no 'social media team.' It's James and me, actively listening to what people are saying, taking the constructive parts, and moving forward.

A rebrand is also in the future. What has to happen first, is we need to differentiate ourselves in our ethic. Then, when we've satisfied the community's curiosity/scrutiny, then we can work on either rebuilding the GM name, or rebranding to avoid any temporal confusion.

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For me GM is DoA, I really wanted to back it in the KS but never did, now, I can't see me going anywhere near it. Good luck, you're going to seriously need it.

Thanks for the luck. Even if it may be passive-aggressive. I'll still take it! :-)

Bro bro bro, they are going to have MORE than 1 programmer so that social media team will be 10 people strong! Heh so this jrhager guy is the CEO of a company that isn't even officially formed yet (paperwork all done and stuff). Good luck MMOI and GM. You will need it.

I appreciate the positive thoughts! ;-)

[Azrile]

To be clear -- The damaged image is GreedMonger, not MMOI. MMOI acquired the brand.

I'll have you know that I have proposed a workaround for our issue with Atavism in regards to U5 compatibility, and we're working on getting something together. I understand your skepticism, but give me some time to get things together. Then, if we fail, you'll have carte blache in regards to ripping me a new one. Deal?

Killing me man. MMOI is a company that doesn´t even exist yet. It was created for GreedMonger. People are not that stupid to think everything is magically sunshine because you started a new company.

Atavism will never be able to make a MMORPG, let alone one that is as intensive as your plot/housing system. Did you even watch your own video? Honestly, you are falling into the same mistakes as Jason. You don´t have the tech background to understand this stuff, so you are just listening to James talk about some magic stuff that is going to fix it all. It isn´t. GreedMonger would struggle with networking even if it was built by Blizzard, it is brutally hard on the networking side of things. Throw in the fact that you are using an engine not built for MMORPGs and using a hacked mmorpg kit that has never actually produced a MMORPG and still has not even added core MMORPG features (coming soon! lol). I would never even start using something like Atavism unilt he devs have all the required features in the kit and have their own MMORPG running with 200 concurrents.

I'd like to think that we at least get a *little* credit for not abandoning the backers, and taking the heat and moving forward.

You want credit for something you haven´t done yet? You haven´t taken any heat, James made a post and blamed everything on Jason. You say that everything is fresh as roses because you paid $35 to register a new company. i haven´t seen you are James explain why he spent 3 years buying all that crap and wasting all the KS money. It was James that wasted the KS money, not Jason. And you glossed over the part where James was telling backers that he already was CEO of MMOI and Jason was taken a back seat.

I doubt anything gets accomplished with the game, this was more about James not wanting to give all that software back to Jason. Oh, he will mess around and maybe make another horrible video, but mostly you are going to see what you are seeing now. Two guys running around the internet trying to say ´give us a chance, Jason was the bad guy, not us´..

and please.. for the love of God stop using terms like ´branding´ until you actually make a game. GreedMonger is that January video, nothing more.

[Kyanion]

No - Not entirely. We were going to file when things were getting more serious, but then people got poached, and it made no sense to put up a vapor company at that point

So it is okay to make the vapor company now? Cool!

[jrhager84]

Killing me man. MMOI is a company that doesn´t even exist yet. It was created for GreedMonger. People are not that stupid to think everything is magically sunshine because you started a new company.

Atavism will never be able to make a MMORPG, let alone one that is as intensive as your plot/housing system. Did you even watch your own video? Honestly, you are falling into the same mistakes as Jason. You don´t have the tech background to understand this stuff, so you are just listening to James talk about some magic stuff that is going to fix it all. It isn´t. GreedMonger would struggle with networking even if it was built by Blizzard, it is brutally hard on the networking side of things. Throw in the fact that you are using an engine not built for MMORPGs and using a hacked mmorpg kit that has never actually produced a MMORPG and still has not even added core MMORPG features (coming soon! lol). I would never even start using something like Atavism unilt he devs have all the required features in the kit and have their own MMORPG running with 200 concurrents.

I never insinuated people were stupid, and I never insinuated that it would be 'sunshine.' Far from it. Again, that's not my concern. My concern is doing what we can to honor the backers, and getting something in their hands. I'm working very closely with some contacts that I have, that are going through the code and letting me know where our bottlenecks are, and what we need to change/improve to get things going. Rest assured, as much as I trust and admire James, I don't take ANYBODY's word completely. I want hard data - I want numbers that mean something. If you have an idea on how GM can be made better, I'm all ears. Heck, wouldn't it be nice to work towards getting a better game into peoples' hands?

This is why we're in a holding pattern. If I decide that something's not working, then we're going to change it. It's really that simple. My hope is that people will see that we're trying to change, and support us in doing so. I'd like to think that the more you get to know me, the more you'll realize that I'm not some scammer or idiot jumping into something stupidly. I'm fighting an uphill battle to ensure that people get a product.

Now, from a business perspective, I get assets. Assets that are of value. Assets that can be used to produce *other* projects, that will START from a good place. However, our commitment as it stands right now, will be Greed Monger -- Whether it succeeds or fails. Any good businessman has a backup plan. If GM fails, then we will learn from what happened, and move on. However, moving on (to me) is NOT abandoning something.

We'll finish it, and if it flops; it flops. Even after that, we'll have code we can reuse. We'll have assets and anims amassed. We'll have artwork and the like. Positioning is key. Honesty is paramount. I'm certainly not a saint, and I certainly don't run a charity. What I do espouse, are principles. I will not abandon this IP. It will succeed or fail, and then we'll move on. There are other projects that are shelved that can be developed the moment that GM concludes. I gave my word that we would do EVERYTHING in our power to honor these backers, and push forward, and I intend on doing so.

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So it is okay to make the vapor company now? Cool!

See, now we're just stooping to flippant attacks. I'd like to think that I've been very forthright and honest when it pertains to this. I would hope that a bit of civility could be used.

and please.. for the love of God stop using terms like ´branding´ until you actually make a game. GreedMonger is that January video, nothing more.

I'll just leave this here:

Branding: 'The process involved in creating a unique name and image for a product in the consumers' mind, mainly through advertising campaigns with a consistent theme. Branding aims to establish a significant and differentiated presence in the market that attracts and retains loyal customers.'

You'll have to excuse me -- I think the GM 'brand' is a lot more comprehensive than a video. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;-)

[Kyanion]

You are right, the GM 'brand' is 3 years of failures and 1 god awful video. After seeing almost a year's worth of Forged Chaos do shit tons of talking while showing nothing this really does not surprise me here. Words are great, but how about you show us something. Right now from what I understand your 'brand' is 2 people, one that produced a terrible video and the other is the 'social media' team. There is a company that is being created with no financial backing that is going to try and get people on board to make this game? *shrugs* I have no horse in this race but I'll enjoy watching this one all the same.

"Branding: 'The process involved in creating a unique name and image for a product in the consumers' mind, mainly through advertising campaigns with a consistent theme. Branding aims to establish a significant and differentiated presence in the market that attracts and retains loyal customers." Umm yes there is a unique image that comes to mind when people talk about GM. What is there to advertise? You can't establish a presence in a market when you aren't even CLOSE to getting a game out. Ther are no 'customers' because you have nothing to sell them.

[Azrile]

well yeah, you can´t just come right out and say that GreedMonger is dead right after you take it over. Give it 3-6 months of forum posts and some sincere anguish.. gather some sympathy for the brave and honorable uphill battle you fought trying to save a tarnished GreedMonger. That way when you start over with GameX that is built with all of the assets the backers of the Geedmonger Kickstarter paid for, you can do so with a clear conscious.

Nobody would devote time and money into a game with GreedMongers reputation unless all that time and money is easily transfered to the real project later on.

New Poll ladies and Gentleman. In what Month will MMOI announce their new project. I am taking 4 months from now.. so that would be August. I still have June as the month when Brax finally announces the end of ToA.

[Kyanion]

Azrile, if I didn't know better I'd feel like I'm talking to Brax 2.0

These guys should write a book on how to make a game company that has a 'brand'.

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well yeah, you can´t just come right out and say that GreedMonger is dead right after you take it over. Give it 3-6 months of forum posts and some sincere anguish.. gather some sympathy for the brave and honorable uphill battle you fought trying to save a tarnished GreedMonger. That way when you start over with GameX that is built with all of the assets the backers of the Geedmonger Kickstarter paid for, you can do so with a clear conscious.

Nobody would devote time and money into a game with GreedMongers reputation unless all that time and money is easily transfered to the real project later on.

New Poll ladies and Gentleman. In what Month will MMOI announce their new project. I am taking 4 months from now.. so that would be August. I still have June as the month when Brax finally announces the end of ToA.

MMOI will announce the new project: Trials of Ascension~GreedMonger. A project that has a significant brand presence and other fancy sounding business words that don't apply because there is no game.

[jrhager84]

Potential customers are customers in that sense. The 'image' of GM is the website, the forums, etc. I'm just being tactical when referencing it. I'm not sure why it's become such a sticking point...

[Azrile]

Branding: 'The process involved in creating a unique name and image for a product in the consumers' mind

You missed my point. I know what branding is... do you know what a product is? You do not have a product, so it is silly to talk about branding it.

[draykorinee]

It reminds me of the email I got the other week giving me a free copy of a new zombie MMO from the infestation guys, they basically want to 'rebrand' themselves away from the nightmare that was that development and team. It won't work, once something is toxic in the gaming world it is very hard to recover.