Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[jrhager84]

What I'm going for is specific examples of what your developers have done. I would want to know the people I'm supporting actually have experience in creating some semblance of a successful game. Do they have experience working on an MMO? It takes very little to say X has worked on "something" because it's providing no information at all.

Who was your CL? Why are you trying to get them back?

I hope you don't think I'm trying to attack you, but I'd rather have the full picture for what you're spinning rather than bits of information that really mean nothing.

I'll have to go through and ask again. Like I said, it's nothing 'notable' in any sense, and we're not 'rockstars' at all. We're just working towards having something to show at present. Our CL Jesse worked on 1st party QA for Sony. Some people did some small freelance work for other, various companies (usually under NDA). I'd never make any illusions that we're some 'mega group' that's developed a million successful franchises, because that would be untrue...

It is, and they have. Their launch was messy, it was really rushed(some suggested on account of Dungeons 2 coming out), but they're trying to squash their bugs and get the rest of the game's functionality up and going. They were very transparent about their project, kept it updated and talked about its development week to week. They were fans of a classic game and wanted to make a spiritual successor. And because they spent their time working on the game and not sitting around with their fingers in their noses waiting for some schlub to make it for them, guess what?

They succeeded.

Food for thought, wannabe's.

Aside from the blatant attack at the end, you make a lot of great points. There's not really much to speak about in the context you've provided. I can only say that we're definitely not sitting here 'with our fingers in our noses' - we're moving forward.

Indeed, the rushed release aside they've done a really good job considering. I like how the game is very simple, yet has a lot of complex elements you can delve into. You can tell its made by fans as its got the very same feel that Dungeon Keeper had right down to the voice acting. They did release too early IMO with some glaring problems. But it is a small team and they are doing regular updates to the game AND to the community via posts etc. So they are a good example of an indie team making something worth while. Then we see the mess of ToA and now GM? Makes me shake my head that things like this come to light as I like the idea of kick starter and I dont want peoples faith in it shaken by setups like this polluting it.

I can certainly agree with a lot of the sentiments here. This is *exactly* why we didn't abandon GM. We don't want GM contributing to the long line of messy games that ruin peoples' feelings about indie game development. We've made mistakes, but if we right the ship, at least GM won't be completely contributing to that negative image. Hopefully that gives you more insight as to *why* we're doing this.

I'd like to suggest that we tone down the vitriol against Joel here. Not much point in our, to borrow Derium's phrase, going for the throat. Clearly the majority of us posting recently here, myself included, don't see GM having a snowball's chance in Scottsdale; yet we are all perfectly capable of expressing that without unnecessary personal attacks and name-calling.

That said Joel, while I appreciate that you're trying to cleanup and damage control for not only GM but also Mr. Proctor, I hope you understand that most of us here are not remotely fans of Mr. Appleton, but we also see that while perhaps Mr. Proctor couldn't be held -legally- accountable for GM's technical failings under ECG we certainly do hold him responsible nonetheless. In truth, you're not only having to work on GM's brand (which I agree with others here seems premature right now; but I'm hardly qualified to offer marketing advice), but more importantly on Mr. Proctor's brand.

This is the sticking point, I feel: by essentially replacing Mr. Appleton with yourself while Mr. Proctor still is employed in making GM, you would have us believe that Mr. Appleton was the reason that GM has stagnated. We see it a bit differently though, and again I want to stress that we are -not- supporters of Mr. Appleton, but we can't ignore that the one person we consider directly responsible for the work done on GM over the last three years and the content of that video is still at the technical helm.

I appreciate your defense, but I knew this was going to happen going into this. I'm not a big fan of personal attacks, but if there's a point to be had in there as well, I'll take that out of it. If it's just a personal attack, then it will just be ignored, and doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The video was a mistake - Plain and simple. There were some changes in direction that happened, that if I were at the helm I would've waited on. I use this steak analogy, as it relates perfectly to this circumstance, and everybody has dealt with this before (even if not steak, something else).

Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.

[Taojnhy]

I appreciate your defense, but I knew this was going to happen going into this. I'm not a big fan of personal attacks, but if there's a point to be had in there as well, I'll take that out of it. If it's just a personal attack, then it will just be ignored, and doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The video was a mistake - Plain and simple. There were some changes in direction that happened, that if I were at the helm I would've waited on. I use this steak analogy, as it relates perfectly to this circumstance, and everybody has dealt with this before (even if not steak, something else).

Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.

To be perfectly frank, my position here I imagine is somewhat parallel to yours; I'm more concerned about the image we in this thread are presenting towards those who come here to engage us. I don't want us to be viewed as "those trolls at MMO-C" and that excuse used to obfuscate legitimate criticisms such as we've had happen with our dealings with Forged Chaos and their Trials of Ascension project. I have no doubts that you can handle yourself Joel.

I have to admit I'm a bit stuck on your steak analogy; if a steak is overcooked how is taking more time going to make it perfect? Did you mean undercooked? If you meant undercooked, okay, I see where you're coming from. But as this relates to GM we're now talking about a steak that's taken three years to cook (despite assurances from the cook that far more progress was being made than was actually the case) and when we finally lay eyes on what turns out to be a cooked hoof and express our displeasure to the cook, knowing full well that more time is needed for the steak that we paid in advance for, we also are still hungry and that the chances of our saying, "screw this, let's go get Thai" start climbing.

I'm either overthinking this or you need a better analogy.

[jrhager84]

To be perfectly frank, my position here I imagine is somewhat parallel to yours; I'm more concerned about the image we in this thread are presenting towards those who come here to engage us. I don't want us to be viewed as "those trolls at MMO-C" and that excuse used to obfuscate legitimate criticisms such as we've had happen with our dealings with Forged Chaos and their Trials of Ascension project. I have no doubts that you can handle yourself Joel.

I have to admit I'm a bit stuck on your steak analogy; if a steak is overcooked how is taking more time going to make it perfect? Did you mean undercooked? If you meant undercooked, okay, I see where you're coming from.

I'm either overthinking this or you need a better analogy.

In food service, you throw away the bad steak, and recook it. Apologies for not being clear enough.

[Taojnhy]

In food service, you throw away the bad steak, and recook it. Apologies for not being clear enough.

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?

[Azrile]

yeah. Here is what I see.

There is absolutely no difference betweeen you and Jason. No game development or programming skills, just a lot of talk about PR, Branding and team-building and you are committed to this game. Neither of you can provide details of any game that either you or any of your employees actually created and you are already buying into the fake excuses and promises James was making to Jason for the last 3 years. That you believe in James makes me question your ability to recognize talent.. 3 years, $100,000 and he produced that January video. Hilarious that you talk about all these other employees that lining up to work for you..they must have some killed videos out there too.

And what you type and talk about.. seriously it is exactly what James has been doing for 3 years on the forums. A lot of fault blamed on everyone else that has now been taking care of.. A lot of technical excuses that honestly make no sense. Republique was a completed game that went from Unity4 to Unity5 in less than a day. My own project took less than a few hours to switch over, but yet the video James released somehow requires 4 months to use Unity5? And this talk about UMA2 is a fake excuse also. But here you are, doing exactly what James did for years.. making promises of something that is coming ´real soon´.. but rest assured, when it doesn´t happen, it will be the fault of someone else... UMA, Atavism.. someone... but at the same time.. fear not, because the newer solution will be coming soon. Do you not realize this is exactly why your fans abandoned the game over the last 2 years? And why we are all giving the same advice to shut up and make the game first? Show progress before you talk about progress.

The game is now apparently in Alpha, which means nothing except James called it Alpha, just like he called himself CEO of MMOI. There is absolutely no reason anyone should think the game is anywhere past that January video. God, it is the same as ToA.. spending all their time on the forums talking about progress, but not actually making any.

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Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?

Yes, they are going to change engines, change network solutions, change everything. Read James on his forums for the last 3 years, it was what he has been doing all along, it is his excuse for not making progress. It is always the fault of engine/networking etc... but they want to make the perfect steak, so they are going to use new stuff, that will make everything perfect. Joel just doesn´t know enough to know that James is just making excuses. Psst.. the bad steak is James and the idea that a CEO who has never made a game can suddenly create a team from thin air to create one.

[jrhager84]

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

So is this meant to suggest that the previous work on GM is being discarded and MMO Interactive will be making a fresh start on the metaphorical steak, or am I reading too much into your explanation?

As I had stated before, we will be going back as far as we have to to ensure that we have a stable foundation.

yeah. Here is what I see.

There is absolutely no difference betweeen you and Jason. No game development or programming skills, just a lot of talk about PR, Branding and team-building and you are committed to this game. Neither of you can provide details of any game that either you or any of your employees actually created and you are already buying into the fake excuses and promises James was making to Jason for the last 3 years. That you believe in James makes me question your ability to recognize talent.. 3 years, $100,000 and he produced that January video. Hilarious that you talk about all these other employees that lining up to work for you..they must have some killed videos out there too.

And what you type and talk about.. seriously it is exactly what James has been doing for 3 years on the forums. A lot of fault blamed on everyone else that has now been taking care of.. A lot of technical excuses that honestly make no sense. Republique was a completed game that went from Unity4 to Unity5 in less than a day. My own project took less than a few hours to switch over, but yet the video James released somehow requires 4 months to use Unity5? And this talk about UMA2 is a fake excuse also. But here you are, doing exactly what James did for years.. making promises of something that is coming ´real soon´.. but rest assured, when it doesn´t happen, it will be the fault of someone else... UMA, Atavism.. someone... but at the same time.. fear not, because the newer solution will be coming soon. Do you not realize this is exactly why your fans abandoned the game over the last 2 years? And why we are all giving the same advice to shut up and make the game first? Show progress before you talk about progress.

The game is now apparently in Alpha, which means nothing except James called it Alpha, just like he called himself CEO of MMOI. There is absolutely no reason anyone should think the game is anywhere past that January video. God, it is the same as ToA.. spending all their time on the forums talking about progress, but not actually making any.

Personally, I don't care what your thoughts are about me, as I know them to be patently false. I've made no 'promises' per se -- I've only promised that we'll work our asses off to get something to show. Please - Tell me where I ever mentioned any dates, or asked for money? The precipice of a scam is getting money from people. I can understand being defensive, but the lengths at which you're willing to go to substantiate your own views are, to me, silly.

Again, maybe heed your own advice, by remaining silent (a more polite paraphrasing) and let us give you something to rip apart at a later date. You spend so much time attacking our character, you don't even realize that you're falling into your own trap.

'Spending all [our] time?' Really? I've been on here for what, 2 days? I have 20 posts. Your hyperbole is not needed, nor is it wanted or warranted.

[Deleted]

Would you rather send out an over-cooked steak so it's on time, or make the customer wait another 10 minutes for a PERFECT steak?

We're trying to cook a perfect steak now. People are going to be mad. People might get impatient. Though, I'd rather fight through that and have something real to show people, rather than half-bake something and hit a magical deadline that we've already monumentally failed.

Well, the analogy is rather bad. It's more like some fairly new guy trying to do something they don't even have the tools for. It's like a math bachelor trying to prove the Riemann hypothesis. Okay, it's not that much of a gap.

Some of you might have noticed that I was inactive the last few months. Work aside, I read up on new stuff in game development. There is quite an interesting pattern that extends far beyond even R&D - people tend to try something way out of reach and fail monumentally or at least produce a flawed result. Like new guys on that WC3 modding site I linked way earlier - "this new RPG by <insert random inexperienced guy> has 24 heroes, 400 spells, individual talent trees, ..." ... aaaand ... it plays like the garbage it is. If you ask me, they should rather put in the effort to make ~5 or so heroes fun to play and interesting than create loads of stuff that doesn't matter anyway because everything is just a bloated mess and nothing really works out.

What should you get out of this rant of mine? Don't reach for the stars immediately, go for something you can actually do on a satisfying level of quality. You could create an instanced small-scale multiplayer RPG (something like Vindictus [I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong here]), for instance (sorry for the bad pun). It's not that much of a loss compared to a MMORPG, but it's way easier to create and refine. Don't build large-overhead stuff like MMORPGs if you aren't skilled/experienced/wealthy/... enough to capitalize on the benefits over the small(er)-overhead alternatives.

[jrhager84]

@Azrile

Just look at how much time you've personally dedicated to taking up a pitchfork to MMOI. I have to ask - Why do you feel the need to incessantly make claims, and jump to conclusions? Are we asking for money? No - So there's no 'threat' to the 'people' that you seem so eager to 'protect.' Don't think we can finish? Ok - You've made your thoughts ABUNDANTLY clear. Not sure why you feel the need to repeat yourself ad nauseum. If people don't care, then let them not care. There's a HUGE difference, however, between not having any hope in a project anymore, and relentlessly bashing people for some inexplicable reason.

Please - Tell me how what you're doing is benefitting ANYBODY right now. One answer. I have yet to think of one.

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Well, the analogy is rather bad. It's more like some fairly new guy trying to do something they don't even have the tools for. It's like a math bachelor trying to prove the Riemann hypothesis. Okay, it's not that much of a gap.

Some of you might have noticed that I was inactive the last few months. Work aside, I read up on new stuff in game development. There is quite an interesting pattern that extends far beyond even R&D - people tend to try something way out of reach and fail monumentally or at least produce a flawed result. Like new guys on that WC3 modding site I linked way earlier - "this new RPG by <insert random inexperienced guy> has 24 heroes, 400 spells, individual talent trees, ..." ... aaaand ... it plays like the garbage it is. If you ask me, they should rather put in the effort to make ~5 or so heroes fun to play and interesting than create loads of stuff that doesn't matter anyway because everything is just a bloated mess and nothing really works out.

What should you get out of this rant of mine? Don't reach for the stars immediately, go for something you can actually do on a satisfying level of quality. You could create an instanced small-scale multiplayer RPG (something like Vindictus [I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong here]), for instance (sorry for the bad pun). It's not that much of a loss compared to a MMORPG, but it's way easier to create and refine. Don't build large-overhead stuff like MMORPGs if you aren't skilled/experienced/wealthy/... enough to capitalize on the benefits over the small(er)-overhead alternatives.

To be blunt, I don't care that you think me unqualified. Your thoughts aren't what get results. We'll put out a product, and it'll either be good, or it will suck. Why not wait and see? Heck - The 'damage' (the money) is already done and gone, and we're not asking for anything more, so there's no risk involved. It's literally wait and watch. If we fail, then you have my permission to laugh as long and hard as you want. Until then, you're just wasting your time weighing in.

[Deleted]

To be blunt, I don't care that you think me unqualified. Your thoughts aren't what get results. We'll put out a product, and it'll either be good, or it will suck. Why not wait and see? Heck - The 'damage' (the money) is already done and gone, and we're not asking for anything more, so there's no risk involved. It's literally wait and watch. If we fail, then you have my permission to laugh as long and hard as you want. Until then, you're just wasting your time weighing in.

There we go, you're already showing your true colours. I didn't say you were unqualified, still there remains the fact that good MMORPGs are not easy to create and it's very likely that, if you don't adjust your goals, you will fail like dozens of small studios before you. And no, I will not laugh, I will just facepalm as the next lemming walks off the cliff.

Edit: Okay, I'm not feeling destructive right now. So instead of snarkily talking back I have decided to give this one last try: Let's say, you want to use Unity. It's not impossible to make an MMORPG with it, but judging from the fact that few have been able to get even 100 players to log into a server without causing issues, it's probably really hard. Not Riemann hypothesis hard, but still hard enough that it's not worth it for a small studio like yours. Let's face it, you're not on Blizzard's level or even that of the guys Azrile mentioned way earlier in this thread as an example of a studio actually making progress creating an MMORPG using Unity (I don't recall their name, but they were extremely experienced and skilled developers). You're way better off being able to put more thought into the actual game as opposed to wasting your time trying to work around Unity's limits.
I'm not a backer nor do I want to "protect people from being scammed", "take up pitchforks" etc.. It's for your own sake. But whatever, you shouldn't listen to "stupid people" like me.

[Kotori125]

Um...that damage will involve the reputation of your (new) company and all the individuals involved/employed by the company. You pick up a 'damaged' project (and don't care if it fails?!). What if it fails: the company and employees are seen as incompetent attempting to do much more than they are capable of and will likely damage their future carreer (reputation-wise). Or is the intent to make the project succeed, and appear to make a 'broken' product whole and be the hero to do that (despite stating it doesn't matter if it sucks/fails...)?

I think the purpose Azrile makes in this entire thread is to show that there are game devs that are clueless as to how to develop an MMORPG. And that those devs refuse to learn what it takes. And refuse to see what they are doing wrong. And refuse to research what will/not work. And refuse to see if their game is even feasible to be an MMORPG (networking and performance wise).

We have seen FC with toa and all their CEO-dev-ideamen claiming lots, but none of those claims were substantiated, and was revealed they had no dev skills and were practically lying for years (and not just about progress); yet 'people' still follow them. We saw them 'brand' an idea, rather than a product (and hide the progress they actually did have); yet people still follow them. A lot of their questionable behavior was revealed; yet people still follow them. We saw their PR team flock to wherever toa was mentioned and pointed out their behavior; yet people still follow them. People (here) are seeing a parallel between these two situations. Is the majority of feedback really positive towards the game production, or was the feedback mainly from 'yes-men' (as seen from toa) rather than an unbiased audience?

I think that people here want to see if you (and any other devs for GM) can even comprehend the choices that were made in the past, and if any/most/all of the work completed was worthless for an MMORPG.

[Azrile]

@Azrile

Just look at how much time you've personally dedicated to taking up a pitchfork to MMOI.

Sorry, I am confused.. which MMOI? The one you started yesterday, or the one James was a CEO of last year that has Jason on the board of directors.

[Taojnhy]

To be blunt, I don't care that you think me unqualified. Your thoughts aren't what get results. We'll put out a product, and it'll either be good, or it will suck. Why not wait and see? Heck - The 'damage' (the money) is already done and gone, and we're not asking for anything more, so there's no risk involved. It's literally wait and watch. If we fail, then you have my permission to laugh as long and hard as you want. Until then, you're just wasting your time weighing in.

I think you might be getting a bit worked up here Joel; no one is saying anything about your qualifications. We -know- that your forte isn't in the technical aspects needed to make a game; no one is bashing you for this. As I said before, our concerns, objections and criticisms are mostly leveled at Mr. Proctor, his claims and results to date.

You're here to address us and deal with the flak in your capacity as one of the faces of MMO Interactive. None of us have a problem with you per se, nor with your company; we have a problem with your main programmer who's been wasting resources with a significantly less than proportionate result and is still working there with the possibility of having to scrap years worth of work. That possibility alone has me wondering, well, at that point if or when you decide to discard work done do you really still need Mr. Proctor?

But all this said, the crux of the issue remains: we are skeptical, you aren't really in a position currently to assuage our doubts (though we do appreciate that you dropped by) and until we see that perfect steak, or hell, even the right cut of beef, we're by and large likely to remain doubtful and vocal.

One last thought: if it's not a waste of time for you to engage with us without evidence of progress, it cannot be a waste of time for anyone else who wants to chime in with legitimate dialogue about doubts either.

[Azrile]

The precipice of a scam is getting money from people

And you already said you are looking for investors. I don´t think I ever called this a scam anyway. Just a second attempt by a nobody CEO with no experience to use an incompetent person with mental issues to make a MMORPG. History repeating itself, Idiocy is doing the same thing twice and expecting different results etc etc.. you know the sayings..

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and we're not asking for anything more ?

But you are. You already said you are looking for investors and backers, and what you are doing here is your branding and PR work. You want those potential investors to see nothing but shiny happy people excited for your product. You don´t want those potential investors seeing people calling you out for your lack of experience or the incredible ´sameness´ that this new company feels like compared to the previous version.

Let me guess, you found this thread because you have Google alerts set up so you and James can run off and do damage control any time your game in mentioned. Your community manager was already here within minutes... and well,. ToA also had their PR idiots here within the first day of this thread doing the same thing.

And really, if you have problems with why I am doing this, that is great. Let´s see. ToA and GreedMonger are opposed to this thread.. wonder what they have in common.... Oh yeah.. games run by CEOs who know nothing about making games and draw flowers on the wall and say how pretty everything will be.

And if you think I am just some hateful troll, you should really read this thread. I love indie games, I love KS as a way for indie companies to get funded to finish games

Gloria Victis
Repopulation
Shards Online
Shroud of the Avatar
Star Citizen
Crowfall.

The list of games I admire and support goes on and on. The difference is those devs actually MADE A GAME before and not just post on forums all day, which is what you, James and the ToA devs seem to only be able to do.

[Fallen Angel]

So again you never really answered my questions. Hiding what your people have done under the guise of NDA just reeks of "they haven't worked on anything worth more than half a shit" to me. I'm really surprised you could not cite a single game your developers have worked on. As a skeptic I want to see actual results as to what your team has done before GM. Is there somewhere I can look and see who you have on your team now, or is that going to fall under these other shallow claims of "we have people and they have experience doing things"?

[Azrile]

We -know- that your forte isn't in the technical aspects needed to make a game; no one is bashing you for this.

Sorry, you are wrong, I am bashing him for this for the reasons I have already given. If you do not know anything about making a game, and have no technical skills, then James is just going to keep lying to him in exactly the same way he did to Jason. Joel has already been parroting things James has said to him about UMA and Unity5 which are false. Because Joel has no technical knowledge, he does not know know if what James is saying is true or not... but as he said, he ´believes´ in James... and that trust is going to get him exactly where it got Jason.

I talked about it with the ToA devs, if you have no technical training, then contractors and employees are going to abuse you. The day the ToA devs bought that naming system, Myself, the coder and everyone else who saw it knew it was never going to work in a MMORPG, yet Brax bragged about it, implemented it in a broken state, and 10 months later it was still broken in his game. It is exactly the same thing with this UMA update. Anyone who knows anything UMA would tell you that UMA2 is going to do nothing to help GM with that video or any performance issues moving forward. But because there is a UMA2 patch coming in a few weeks, James latched on to it. The same way he has been doing for 3 years... there is always something new coming that will fix everything... and because joelson don´t know anything about making games, they just ´believe´ in him.

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So again you never really answered my questions. Hiding what your people have done under the guise of NDA just reeks of "they haven't worked on anything worth more than half a shit" to me. I'm really surprised you could not cite a single game your developers have worked on. As a skeptic I want to see actual results as to what your team has done before GM. Is there somewhere I can look and see who you have on your team now, or is that going to fall under these other shallow claims of "we have people and they have experience doing things"?

eh..you are making a good point. But if you asked me the same question, I could give you a huge list of games ´I have worked on´ and some of them are crazy impressive, but in the end, I did very little except maybe one custom animation or something like that. For someone like Nobiax (prolific environmental artist), his work can probably be found in 1000s of released games, and I am not exaggerating. Some of these bigger indie games that are being developed now probably have hundreds of different people who have contributed something in some small way.

[Fallen Angel]

eh..you are making a good point. But if you asked me the same question, I could give you a huge list of games ´I have worked on´ and some of them are crazy impressive, but in the end, I did very little except maybe one custom animation or something like that. For someone like Nobiax (prolific environmental artist), his work can probably be found in 1000s of released games, and I am not exaggerating. Some of these bigger indie games that are being developed now probably have hundreds of different people who have contributed something in some small way.

I know this, but it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to see what his team has contributed to these indie/mobile games they allegedly worked on. Something along the lines of the game you cited where the devs listed their experience with Star Citizen and the like. It's still just something tangible to see if I should trust their experience or not.

Hell, I'd rather hear that they've worked on __Insert lie here__ than hear that they've worked on "something".

[lawow74]

Aside from the blatant attack at the end, you make a lot of great points. There's not really much to speak about in the context you've provided. I can only say that we're definitely not sitting here 'with our fingers in our noses' - we're moving forward.

I'll believe that when I see it. And what you call an attack I call the surest point of them all, one that's been repeated many times before. Spend your time actually working on making a game instead of feeling like you have to hype and respond to every potential critic in the world. Until you produce something playable, an actual product, that's all you are: a wannabe.

[Taojnhy]

Sorry, you are wrong, I am bashing him for this for the reasons I have already given. If you do not know anything about making a game, and have no technical skills, then James is just going to keep lying to him in exactly the same way he did to Jason. Joel has already been parroting things James has said to him about UMA and Unity5 which are false. Because Joel has no technical knowledge, he does not know know if what James is saying is true or not... but as he said, he ´believes´ in James... and that trust is going to get him exactly where it got Jason.

I talked about it with the ToA devs, if you have no technical training, then contractors and employees are going to abuse you. The day the ToA devs bought that naming system, Myself, the coder and everyone else who saw it knew it was never going to work in a MMORPG, yet Brax bragged about it, implemented it in a broken state, and 10 months later it was still broken in his game. It is exactly the same thing with this UMA update. Anyone who knows anything UMA would tell you that UMA2 is going to do nothing to help GM with that video or any performance issues moving forward. But because there is a UMA2 patch coming in a few weeks, James latched on to it. The same way he has been doing for 3 years... there is always something new coming that will fix everything... and because joelson don´t know anything about making games, they just ´believe´ in him.

Fair enough; I misinterpreted your position then as bashing Proctor for yet again abusing the ignorance of someone who's working with him and less about bashing Joel himself.

[Azrile]

I know this, but it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to see what his team has contributed to these indie/mobile games they allegedly worked on. Something along the lines of the game you cited where the devs listed their experience with Star Citizen and the like. It's still just something tangible to see if I should trust their experience or not.

Hell, I'd rather hear that they've worked on __Insert lie here__ than hear that they've worked on "something".

Yeah, it is one of the reasons I doubt they have anyone with any experience. It is pretty easy right now if you have experience to latch onto one of the bigger Indy projects, Star Citizen alone is swallowing up qualified people.. There is no reason anyone would jump into GM at this point. Terrible, ruined IP, very few fans and a game that is very unlikely to get made, so you literally have nothing on your resume´once you are done. Jason and Joel may be fooled because they don´t know the tech stuff, but anyone who is qualified to develop a game would look at the stuff James is saying and Joel is repeating and just cringe. They are going to be a ton of people knocking down their doors, especially if Joel opens up his wallet... but it will be like ToA and Jason all over again, just contractors taking advantage of a nobody CEO with no experience making games. Hey Joel, let me ask you this.. do you happen to need a system where players can name each other? I got one for ya... super cheap..

[jrhager84]

There we go, you're already showing your true colours. I didn't say you were unqualified, still there remains the fact that good MMORPGs are not easy to create and it's very likely that, if you don't adjust your goals, you will fail like dozens of small studios before you. And no, I will not laugh, I will just facepalm as the next lemming walks off the cliff.

Edit: Okay, I'm not feeling destructive right now. So instead of snarkily talking back I have decided to give this one last try: Let's say, you want to use Unity. It's not impossible to make an MMORPG with it, but judging from the fact that few have been able to get even 100 players to log into a server without causing issues, it's probably really hard. Not Riemann hypothesis hard, but still hard enough that it's not worth it for a small studio like yours. Let's face it, you're not on Blizzard's level or even that of the guys Azrile mentioned way earlier in this thread as an example of a studio actually making progress creating an MMORPG using Unity (I don't recall their name, but they were extremely experienced and skilled developers). You're way better off being able to put more thought into the actual game as opposed to wasting your time trying to work around Unity's limits.
I'm not a backer nor do I want to "protect people from being scammed", "take up pitchforks" etc.. It's for your own sake. But whatever, you shouldn't listen to "stupid people" like me.

There's a VERY big difference between voicing concerns in a constructive way, and out-right attacking somebody. Referring to someone as a 'lemming' is not exactly a respectful term, as I'm very sure you're well aware of. I'm ALL for constructive criticism; It's why I came here. To take that, and move forward. Telling me I'm a nobody and that I'm doomed doesn't help anything at all. It's not constructive; It's DEstructive. I won't allow myself to acknowledge any destructive criticism, as it doesn't help at all. I've also stated numerous times before that I'm ABSOLUTELY open to suggestions on making the game better. Instead of focusing on why in will fail, maybe help me see what needs to change to avoid that? I'm not too proud to listen to feedback. I'm not too good to listen to sage advice. I'm listening. The difference is, I'm not hearing anything that can help me. Stuff that I *have* heard, I'm taking into account, and looking into.

Um...that damage will involve the reputation of your (new) company and all the individuals involved/employed by the company. You pick up a 'damaged' project (and don't care if it fails?!). What if it fails: the company and employees are seen as incompetent attempting to do much more than they are capable of and will likely damage their future carreer (reputation-wise). Or is the intent to make the project succeed, and appear to make a 'broken' product whole and be the hero to do that (despite stating it doesn't matter if it sucks/fails...)?

I think the purpose Azrile makes in this entire thread is to show that there are game devs that are clueless as to how to develop an MMORPG. And that those devs refuse to learn what it takes. And refuse to see what they are doing wrong. And refuse to research what will/not work. And refuse to see if their game is even feasible to be an MMORPG (networking and performance wise).

We have seen FC with toa and all their CEO-dev-ideamen claiming lots, but none of those claims were substantiated, and was revealed they had no dev skills and were practically lying for years (and not just about progress); yet 'people' still follow them. We saw them 'brand' an idea, rather than a product (and hide the progress they actually did have); yet people still follow them. A lot of their questionable behavior was revealed; yet people still follow them. We saw their PR team flock to wherever toa was mentioned and pointed out their behavior; yet people still follow them. People (here) are seeing a parallel between these two situations. Is the majority of feedback really positive towards the game production, or was the feedback mainly from 'yes-men' (as seen from toa) rather than an unbiased audience?

I think that people here want to see if you (and any other devs for GM) can even comprehend the choices that were made in the past, and if any/most/all of the work completed was worthless for an MMORPG.

Please - Let's go over claims. What exactly have I claimed? You seem to insinuate that I've made gargantuan claims, but I challenge you to find one. In fact, the ONLY thing I've ever 'claimed' is that we're working our hardest... Again I challenge you to find where I stated any differently... I've also VERY openly asked for help. I'm not saying that I personally have the knowledge to do this - I'm hoping I can find people that can help me. Whether it's telling me how shitty the game is and what to fix, or offering some suggestions that could make the game better...

Sorry, I am confused.. which MMOI? The one you started yesterday, or the one James was a CEO of last year that has Jason on the board of directors.

James spoke about the 'idea' of the company and it's previously-thought-of structure - That was a mistake on his part, and I can only attempt to clarify now.

I think you might be getting a bit worked up here Joel; no one is saying anything about your qualifications. We -know- that your forte isn't in the technical aspects needed to make a game; no one is bashing you for this. As I said before, our concerns, objections and criticisms are mostly leveled at Mr. Proctor, his claims and results to date.

You're here to address us and deal with the flak in your capacity as one of the faces of MMO Interactive. None of us have a problem with you per se, nor with your company; we have a problem with your main programmer who's been wasting resources with a significantly less than proportionate result and is still working there with the possibility of having to scrap years worth of work. That possibility alone has me wondering, well, at that point if or when you decide to discard work done do you really still need Mr. Proctor?

But all this said, the crux of the issue remains: we are skeptical, you aren't really in a position currently to assuage our doubts (though we do appreciate that you dropped by) and until we see that perfect steak, or hell, even the right cut of beef, we're by and large likely to remain doubtful and vocal.

One last thought: if it's not a waste of time for you to engage with us without evidence of progress, it cannot be a waste of time for anyone else who wants to chime in with legitimate dialogue about doubts either.

I've been VERY civil thus far, and have only responded in kind to people that have offered nothing of value. I admire skepticism, and I make no claim - I challenge anybody to find where I have. I've stated steps we're working on, but never a grandiose claim or anything of the sort. I am a gamer at heart. I'm no miracle-worker. I'd NEVER claim that I am important. Never. I'm just trying to finish a game that has been battered and bruised.

And you already said you are looking for investors. I don´t think I ever called this a scam anyway. Just a second attempt by a nobody CEO with no experience to use an incompetent person with mental issues to make a MMORPG. History repeating itself, Idiocy is doing the same thing twice and expecting different results etc etc.. you know the sayings..

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But you are. You already said you are looking for investors and backers, and what you are doing here is your branding and PR work. You want those potential investors to see nothing but shiny happy people excited for your product. You don´t want those potential investors seeing people calling you out for your lack of experience or the incredible ´sameness´ that this new company feels like compared to the previous version.

Let me guess, you found this thread because you have Google alerts set up so you and James can run off and do damage control any time your game in mentioned. Your community manager was already here within minutes... and well,. ToA also had their PR idiots here within the first day of this thread doing the same thing.

And really, if you have problems with why I am doing this, that is great. Let´s see. ToA and GreedMonger are opposed to this thread.. wonder what they have in common.... Oh yeah.. games run by CEOs who know nothing about making games and draw flowers on the wall and say how pretty everything will be.

And if you think I am just some hateful troll, you should really read this thread. I love indie games, I love KS as a way for indie companies to get funded to finish games

Gloria Victis
Repopulation
Shards Online
Shroud of the Avatar
Star Citizen
Crowfall.

The list of games I admire and support goes on and on. The difference is those devs actually MADE A GAME before and not just post on forums all day, which is what you, James and the ToA devs seem to only be able to do.

One point: It's actually 'insanity' that is doing the same thing over and over, but your point does stand. I'm not going to do things the same, and I can assure you that everything you say (no matter how crass at times) is being heard. I'm not too proud to dismiss what you say because it's delivered in an acerbic way. I *want* to make this game better, and I don't care how much my 'ego' has to take a hit to get things moving.

Again, it all comes down to civility. Indirectly referring to me as a 'PR idiot' is not respectful, and doesn't help at all - hence my comments. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I respect them. However, when you call me names, and make baseless accusations and flippant remarks regarding my character, it makes it VERY difficult to keep the topic on the points.

In fact - The next time I do an interview, I'll bring you along as the side of the opposition if you would so oblige. I'd love to answer your concerns in that forum. I know we're fighting an uphill battle. I'm not puffing my chest. This isn't some ego stroke. We just want to finish this game.

Sorry, you are wrong, I am bashing him for this for the reasons I have already given. If you do not know anything about making a game, and have no technical skills, then James is just going to keep lying to him in exactly the same way he did to Jason. Joel has already been parroting things James has said to him about UMA and Unity5 which are false. Because Joel has no technical knowledge, he does not know know if what James is saying is true or not... but as he said, he ´believes´ in James... and that trust is going to get him exactly where it got Jason.

I talked about it with the ToA devs, if you have no technical training, then contractors and employees are going to abuse you. The day the ToA devs bought that naming system, Myself, the coder and everyone else who saw it knew it was never going to work in a MMORPG, yet Brax bragged about it, implemented it in a broken state, and 10 months later it was still broken in his game. It is exactly the same thing with this UMA update. Anyone who knows anything UMA would tell you that UMA2 is going to do nothing to help GM with that video or any performance issues moving forward. But because there is a UMA2 patch coming in a few weeks, James latched on to it. The same way he has been doing for 3 years... there is always something new coming that will fix everything... and because joelson don´t know anything about making games, they just ´believe´ in him.

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eh..you are making a good point. But if you asked me the same question, I could give you a huge list of games ´I have worked on´ and some of them are crazy impressive, but in the end, I did very little except maybe one custom animation or something like that. For someone like Nobiax (prolific environmental artist), his work can probably be found in 1000s of released games, and I am not exaggerating. Some of these bigger indie games that are being developed now probably have hundreds of different people who have contributed something in some small way.

I'm personally affiliated to these titles (in varying capacities):

Legends of Etherell
Valiance Online
Outlasting The Dead

I'm a Sound Engineer. I do post-production and sound design. I run a recording studio. I've worked on films, and have delivered media to USA/FOX/etc. Again, they're not super-impressive titles, but Aaron (the owner of SilverHelm) is a dear friend of mine, and somebody who knows my character, and understands my plight. He has been gracious enough to rip into me regarding holes and bottlenecks of our layout, and is working with me to correct these issues.

Jesse Our old CL - As a member of the Release Project Management team supporting the complete World Wide Studios portfolio, facilitated the release of 200+ First Party PlayStation SKUs – including Heavy Rain & Game of the Year award-winning Uncharted 2: Among Thieves. He worked as a localization writer for Aeria games, and he now works for PlayNext, and is doing AWESOME, and I couldn't be more proud of him!

Some concept art from RoH:

http://i.imgur.com/u5S7Zdt.png
http://i.imgur.com/PgL3wbu.png
http://i.imgur.com/4xbG8pf.png
http://i.imgur.com/DgnHoRo.png
http://i.imgur.com/sfHeKI5.png
http://i.imgur.com/mo8bpdu.png
http://i.imgur.com/ys8a2zN.jpg

We're not rockstars - We don't have much going for our name, but I personally feel like we can do this. I can respect if you disagree, but let's at least keep this civil, please.

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I'll believe that when I see it. And what you call an attack I call the surest point of them all, one that's been repeated many times before. Spend your time actually working on making a game instead of feeling like you have to hype and respond to every potential critic in the world. Until you produce something playable, an actual product, that's all you are: a wannabe.

You know as well as I do that the 'wannabe' remark was not constructive. It wasn't some 'go gettum kid' remark you made. It was inflammatory.