Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[jrhager84]

I can't argue your opinion, because it's your opinion. I can tell you that you're wrong, but you wouldn't believe me. I made it a point to address EVERY concern personally. I'm sorry that my commitment to discourse has upset you. Again, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Time will tell.

P.S. - I only posted the concept art, because I was asked what our people have done in the past, and challenged their abilities. I happen to think that the concept art is very good, and decided to show it. You're gonna feel silly when RoH isn't announced in 3 months. You're gonna also feel silly when all of your predictions are found to be false.

[Azrile]

I can't argue your opinion, because it's your opinion. I can tell you that you're wrong, but you wouldn't believe me. I made it a point to address EVERY concern personally. I'm sorry that my commitment to discourse has upset you. Again, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Time will tell.

P.S. - I only posted the concept art, because I was asked what our people have done in the past, and challenged their abilities. I happen to think that the concept art is very good, and decided to show it. You're gonna feel silly when RoH isn't announced in 3 months. You're gonna also feel silly when all of your predictions are found to be false.

Time will tell. More advice after talking to some of the people who gave you money. T-shirts and a different game aren´t going to appease them because they paid for land in a game. That is the only really unique feature of GM, the fact that the game would be funded after launch because players could buy and sell virtual land with real money for a profit. You really haven´t addressed any concerns, because honestly there is no way you can until there is actually a GM. Which is something we have been telling you all along.. shut up and get the game made... that is the only way you can prove people wrong.

Of course ROH isn´t going to be announced in 3 months, because I am telling you it is going to be announced in 3 months. My prediction was June, so you will make it any month but June, just so I lose my $1. You are spiteful that way

Sometime this weekend I am going to update the OP of this thread. I think the mods here would agree that GM doesn´t deserve it´s own thread, but the business shenanigans and the involvement with KS probably relate it more to ToA than anything else and since we have the CEO and Community Manager already posting in this thread, probably here is as good as any place to unravel this story.

[Kotori125]

I want to state this:

To me, I don't feel like you are expressing any...positivity in picking up GM. You aren't showing any hope or aspirations wanting to pick up the game and make it a success, for it to reach the audience's expectations (before the video happened earlier that changed any expectations). You don't actually sound like you want to even produce this game. You said it yourself: if it is a success, then its a success; If it fails, then it fails (and (we) can mock you and ridicule you then when/if it happens). Rather than: we want to make Gm, we want GM to be a success, we want our company to be successful, etc. FC stated lots of 'wants' and lots of positivity about toa (but of course didn't show any evidence until it was too late).

In my opinion, I don't feel like you are quite listening to the full criticism that people, Azrile among others, is stating (ridicule otherwise). I mean, MMOI may have a compromised reputation before its existence because it was used with the bad-rep individuals. Or that you keep bad-rep individuals for your new company even when acknowledging they are bad-rep individuals.

Just to say, word choice is very important in how you express yourself (especially via internet). Reputation is also very important as a business. If you are truly serious about completing GM (to success), why would you hinder your (new) company by adopting/keeping those bad-reputation elements?

Trust? Believe me, I trusted people that I believed were my friends; many of them stole from me (when I was younger, of course they weren't 'close' friends, but trusted nonetheless). I trust my brother in letting him borrow money believing he will pay me off; he still hasn't paid me back in full 2+ years later, and I still let him borrow money because of the 'trust' I have in him. I trusted my previous employer to pay me my paycheck on time; it took up to a month for the check to clear/actually receive the money; additionally I trusted them to not steal money from me (or the gov.), yet they never reported my SS earnings for the 3 years I was employed, nor using the money I pay for insurance to cover me, among other things I can rant about.

Trust means very little when you are staring the 'negatives' in the face and trust/believe them to be 'positives'. Not everyone/everything is inherently 'good; not everyone/everything is a positive towards your company, especially when they were negative in the past with the same project you are adopting for your own company. It just doesn't scream 'intelligent business decisions' for most people posting here, in my opinion.

[Kyanion]

I suppose just update the thread to show the GM crap starts on page X and goes until page X.

MMOI is a tainted name, I find it quite amusing they used it considering the bad rep it had before even technically existing.

[dextersmith]

I'm not quite sure what you think you're doing, aside from maybe bolstering your ego by 'white knighting' the poor KS backers.

You are too.

We will release this game no matter what. Whether it's taking a while because we're financing it ourselves, or with help from publishers or investors. This project will NOT get shelved. It WILL be released to our best efforts.

Toa quote?

He was the former community manager that came back after Jason left. Not sure what your point is...

This company is NOT responsible for wasting KS money - We haven't seen a dime of it.

That's a lie! You only replaced Jason's role, the company's still you, James, and Derium, just renamed. James wasted ks money on abandoned licenses, had Jason pay someone for WoW icons, and creates 3 versions of gm simultaneously. James was also paid with ks funds by Jason. You're lying to backers!

Also, from a team standpoint, the additional of new members will ensure that everything moves forward smoothly.

You would think so but not true! This statement shows me you've never lead a business or project. You can't see past your naivety.

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So again you never really answered my questions. Hiding what your people have done under the guise of NDA just reeks of "they haven't worked on anything worth more than half a shit" to me. I'm really surprised you could not cite a single game your developers have worked on. As a skeptic I want to see actual results as to what your team has done before GM. Is there somewhere I can look and see who you have on your team now, or is that going to fall under these other shallow claims of "we have people and they have experience doing things"?

That's the latest thing!

What experience do you have?
NDA!

Does your game work?
NDA!

What's for dinner?
NDA!

All together ToA!
NDA!

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Please - Let's go over claims. What exactly have I claimed? You seem to insinuate that I've made gargantuan claims, but I challenge you to find one. In fact, the ONLY thing I've ever 'claimed' is that we're working our hardest... Again I challenge you to find where I stated any differently... I've also VERY openly asked for help. I'm not saying that I personally have the knowledge to do this - I'm hoping I can find people that can help me. Whether it's telling me how shitty the game is and what to fix, or offering some suggestions that could make the game better...

False claims:

1. You guys have not received or benefited from ks money.
James had. Your licenses and gm assets were from ks money.

2. You guys have not wasted ks money.
James had - licenses!

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I claim that our vision is different, and that we're learning moving forward. Right now, the server is being migrated, so no - We haven't made 'progress' in the development sense. What we *have* progressed in, is how we operate as a developer, and how we engage in the community. We're moving forward, and will be very forthright in showing it. We're also not too proud to ask for help, and people have been very supportive and helpful in that regard.

Toa has said all of this too! Bold text countless times!

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Jason and James were at a stalemate when it came to developing the game. Since he had no direct control over the game, he decided to part ways. He felt his hands were tied.

No excuses. Bottom line is, James did walk away with ZERO accountability for a time.

[jrhager84]

The NDAs I were referring to aren't from us...they were from the freelance work. It was work-for-hire under NDA, and I'm sure not all of it was, but I didn't exactly compile a list, so my mistake. So yeah, your argument falls flat. As for the other stuff - I'm not sure what you want at this point. I've bowed out, and am taking the actions necessary. There's nothing more to say. I couldn't care less what ToA has done (comparatively); I'm not ToA. GM is not ToA. If anything, it'll serve as an example of what NOT to do, and I'll do everything in my power to make that so.

Let's just be honest here:

There's nothing I can say to change your mind. In this sense, we're just spinning our wheels. You want progress? Ok - I'll be sure to post some when it happens (in the tangible sense). Until then, this doesn't really help anything, as I'm sure you can agree. It is funny watching you try to use these 'Gotcha!' arguments. You're onto something big, I'm sure... Danger lurks in the shadows of MMOI... <rolls eyes>

You said it in this very thread - We're a 'nobody' company full of 'nobodies.' In the spirit of that - Why bother? I could understand if we tried to launch another KS campaign, or solicit money in some way, but that's just not so. So my question is - Why? I suppose there's no real answer to that. You also claim how easy it is to dig up this 'dirt' on MMOI/GM/James/Jason/me/etc. If so, then surely the community will know what we're up to, yourselves included. Something about a company... I can't remember the name of it -- Gaggle? Gooble? One of those G-companies that lets people search for information.

I hate to disappoint you guys, but you're digging for a 'scoop' that just isn't there. Time will tell, and you'll slowly start to realize that the 'skepticism' in your mind was actually paranoia in a lot of ways. In my humble opinion, of course.

You keep mentioning licenses. What licenses? Unity 5? Free. Atavism? 270 dollars. AtVoxel? 300 bucks... Really? I've taken on this MASSIVELY negative project to scam <1000 dollars worth of licenses that I could just by right now without the headache? Ok, we also have 4500 dollars (was told by a certain person that we paid 20,000 for them HA!) worth of custom housing assets that will NOT be used in another game, as they're custom for this game. I'm literally opening up all of the books on resources, and contacting them to see where the 'discrepancies' are. I can assure you that James nor I have them.

Also - You keep saying James scammed people out of tons of money in licenses. We have literally maybe 800 dollars in licenses out of 100,000 dollars... I'm going to spend WAY more than that on this game from now forward. I've spent half of that already getting things transferred, server costs, business startup costs, etc.

I really think you don't understand how the hierarchy was with ECG and GM. James had ZERO power. Literally.

[doot]

Let's just be honest here:

There's nothing I can say to change your mind. In this sense, we're just spinning our wheels. You want progress? Ok - I'll be sure to post some when it happens (in the tangible sense). Until then, this doesn't really help anything, as I'm sure you can agree.

Not to be excessively snide, but congratulations you learned what people told you from the get go. Unless you got something to really show there's no reason for you to be out here because you're just talking without supplying anything tangible to prove what you have to say.

[jrhager84]

Not to be excessively snide, but congratulations you learned what people told you from the get go. Unless you got something to really show there's no reason for you to be out here because you're just talking without supplying anything tangible to prove what you have to say.

I don't take that as snide. I understand, but I also challenge you to find where I 'promised' anything other than what our new goals/intentions were. I never said 'GM to release in 30 days! It's gonna KILL WoW!' Then - Yeah, I'd be full of shit. But it's just not the case.

[dextersmith]

I meant 'forum' as 'public forum' (i.e. place for expression). I was not referring to MMO-C as a 'peanut gallery.' You have not been helpful in the least, so I would be remiss to point that out. Nobody is *required* to help. That said, calling me Jason 2.0 doesn't really serve any purpose either. Again, I guess your time is that cheap that you can sit here taking pot-shots. I'm OK with that. Just don't expect me to give credence to your opinions.....

Who cares? You were caught lying.

[jrhager84]

Who cares? You were caught lying.

Where did I lie?

[dextersmith]

I can't argue your opinion, because it's your opinion. I can tell you that you're wrong, but you wouldn't believe me. I made it a point to address EVERY concern personally. I'm sorry that my commitment to discourse has upset you. Again, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Time will tell.

Isn't this your 3rd bow out?

[doot]

I don't take that as snide. I understand, but I also challenge you to find where I 'promised' anything other than what our new goals/intentions were. I never said 'GM to release in 30 days! It's gonna KILL WoW!' Then - Yeah, I'd be full of shit. But it's just not the case.

I'd challenge you to find where I said you promised anything. All I was stating was nothing you say has much weight if there's nothing to tie it to. If you can't provide examples of the work the people you hired have done and if you can't show us any signs of improvement in the game then don't bother. If I'm not mistaken you made your intentions for actually finishing the game known when you made the announcement MMOI was taking over. So yes you are spinning your wheels because you don't have the ability to do more than repeat what you said before even talking to us.

[jrhager84]

Isn't this your 3rd bow out?

I meant in terms of adding to the discussion; not defending myself or my actions when (mis)quoted directly.

[Azrile]

No excuses. Bottom line is, James did walk away with ZERO accountability for a time.

Yeah, you have to put this in chronological order.

James lied to people for 3 years about the great progress he was making, making horrible excuses for delays, but always with bright promises.
Fans finally had enough and demanded James show them something, he put up the January video
Fans turned on him, demanding to know why the screenshots were so much better from 3 years ago.
James crashes and panics
James locked Jason out of the website, made a speech and quit and walked way.
Jason then called James out and demanded the software and licenses.
Suddenly James is interested in making the game again, and Joel here volunteers to mail out the t-shirts in exchange for James keeping the software.

That is all this is. Joel is helping James keep the software and his computer. He will deny it of course, but Joel saw the lack of progress... 3 years, an open wallet and James produced literally nothing. In this thread, we have been highlighting 1-person dev teams all along and again, these guys who got fan money produced a fraction in 3 years of what a single person can do in a few months with no money. But he ´believes´in James.. he believes in him because James was shitting his pants for having to returning $20,000 of software.

We are still waiting for the legal paperwork to be done on MMOI.... so far.. nada.

[Taojnhy]

I really think you don't understand how the hierarchy was with ECG and GM. James had ZERO power. Literally.

I cannot disagree with this statement enough Joel.

Proctor had the ultimate power: creation of a tangible product. He had every license he required from Appleton, he had a computer (also provided by Appleton), he had enough influence over Appleton to get at least one person hired for asset work, despite Appleton's misgivings (which turned out to be accurate) and to chase off other people Appleton tried to work with. The only thing he didn't have power over was the money or ownership of Appleton's nebulous "server farm", and even so he still had access to both. Despite this, Proctor failed to deliver anything that could convince anyone in the post-Atari age of video gaming that GM had lived up to Proctor's three years of promises.

And again, that is not to say that Appleton is blameless or was a victim of anything besides his own ignorance. But to say that Proctor had "ZERO power. Literally." is incredibly disingenuous.

[jrhager84]

I cannot disagree with this statement enough Joel.

Proctor had the ultimate power: creation of a tangible product. He had every license he required from Appleton, he had a computer (also provided by Appleton), he had enough influence over Appleton to get at least one person hired for asset work, despite Appleton's misgivings (which turned out to be accurate) and to chase off other people Appleton tried to work with. The only thing he didn't have power over was the money or ownership of Appleton's nebulous "server farm", and even so he still had access to both. Despite this, Proctor failed to deliver anything that could convince anyone in the post-Atari age of video gaming that GM had lived up to Proctor's three years of promises.

And again, that is not to say that Appleton is blameless or was a victim of anything besides his own ignorance. But to say that Proctor had "ZERO power. Literally." is incredibly disingenuous.

I loathe the fact that I can't get into the sordid details, but I can assure you that that was NOT how things went down. In fact, we just went over all that James asked for, and it was <3000 dollars. Out of 100k. The computer he got has a 280W PSU, and is VERY under-powered (hence the crappy FPS). I'd hardly call that a significant amount authority or clout, since he had to 'ask' for it as well. In fact, even with *everything* that was purchased that we can see thus far - We've only accounted for about 20k of the 100k. That should tell you something...

I also know the stories about the employees, and the story is also incorrect regarding those circumstances. I've worked with James in a team environment before in RoH, and everything went smoothly, even when there were tense disagreements. I'm not saying he's not responsible at all for some of the short-sightedness, but I can attest that any and all he got he had to fight for, and there were many disagreements in how things were ran.

Either way, I'm running the top-tier operations of MMOI. We've established that James' strengths are not in management or business development. In that sense, I'm carrying the torch, and I *will* do things differently. Again, time will tell. I can't stress that enough.

[Taojnhy]

I loathe the fact that I can't get into the sordid details, but I can assure you that that was NOT how things went down. In fact, we just went over all that James asked for, and it was <3000 dollars. Out of 100k. The computer he got has a 280W PSU, and is VERY under-powered (hence the crappy FPS). I'd hardly call that a significant amount authority or clout, since he had to 'ask' for it as well. In fact, even with *everything* that was purchased that we can see thus far - We've only accounted for about 20k of the 100k. That should tell you something...

I also know the stories about the employees, and the story is also incorrect regarding those circumstances. I've worked with James in a team environment before in RoH, and everything went smoothly, even when there were tense disagreements. I'm not saying he's not responsible at all for some of the short-sightedness, but I can attest that any and all he got he had to fight for, and there were many disagreements in how things were ran.

Either way, I'm running the top-tier operations of MMOI. We've established that James' strengths are not in management or business development. In that sense, I'm carrying the torch, and I *will* do things differently. Again, time will tell. I can't stress that enough.

So, you're saying that Proctor was able to ask Appleton to purchase various software that he felt were needed, but couldn't ask for the hardware he needed to make things happen? I realize that you're simply relaying to us what Proctor has told you Joel, but this is just yet another excuse by proxy- I mean Proctor.

Also, I realize that you're saying that things will be different now that you're running the show, and we'll just have to see. I just have a difficult time seeing how it'll be much different with Proctor still there.

[jrhager84]

So, you're saying that Proctor was able to ask Appleton to purchase various software that he felt were needed, but couldn't ask for the hardware he needed to make things happen? I realize that you're simply relaying to us what Proctor has told you Joel, but this is just yet another excuse by proxy- I mean Proctor.

Also, I realize that you're saying that things will be different now that you're running the show, and we'll just have to see. I just have a difficult time seeing how it'll be much different with Proctor still there.

I completely agree with you on the last point. This is why I'm bowing out, unless specifically spoken to...

He asked for the hardware, as well as other things. It didn't happen for whatever reason. Again - The story that has been told is not necessarily the truth, but I cannot go into the details...

[Kyanion]

The NDAs I were referring to aren't from us...they were from the freelance work. It was work-for-hire under NDA, and I'm sure not all of it was, but I didn't exactly compile a list, so my mistake. So yeah, your argument falls flat.

So some work was NDA but you are not sure all of it is. You didn't compile a list and admit said mistake but then turn around and claim the argument falls flat when saying you are hiding behind a NDA shield? O...kay.

Time will tell. blah blah blah heard that one before.

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I loathe the fact that I can't get into the sordid details, but I can assure you that that was NOT how things went down. In fact, we just went over all that James asked for, and it was <3000 dollars. Out of 100k. The computer he got has a 280W PSU, and is VERY under-powered (hence the crappy FPS). I'd hardly call that a significant amount authority or clout, since he had to 'ask' for it as well. In fact, even with *everything* that was purchased that we can see thus far - We've only accounted for about 20k of the 100k. That should tell you something...

I also know the stories about the employees, and the story is also incorrect regarding those circumstances. I've worked with James in a team environment before in RoH, and everything went smoothly, even when there were tense disagreements. I'm not saying he's not responsible at all for some of the short-sightedness, but I can attest that any and all he got he had to fight for, and there were many disagreements in how things were ran.

Either way, I'm running the top-tier operations of MMOI. We've established that James' strengths are not in management or business development. In that sense, I'm carrying the torch, and I *will* do things differently. Again, time will tell. I can't stress that enough.

So now the terrible video is all due to a PSU. Oh totally makes sense now! *wink wink* So he got less than 3000 dollars mmmhmm

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You keep mentioning licenses. What licenses? Unity 5? Free. Atavism? 270 dollars. AtVoxel? 300 bucks... Really? I've taken on this MASSIVELY negative project to scam <1000 dollars worth of licenses that I could just by right now without the headache? Ok, we also have 4500 dollars (was told by a certain person that we paid 20,000 for them HA!) worth of custom housing assets that will NOT be used in another game, as they're custom for this game. I'm literally opening up all of the books on resources, and contacting them to see where the 'discrepancies' are. I can assure you that James nor I have them.

So which is it? 3000 dollars in assests or 4500 dollars in custom housing + 3k in licenses + that computer he was using to build the shitty demo. Numbers sure do keep changing.

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Also I imagine there was a cost for Unity in the past 3 years as I think it only recently went free. I am sure if there was actually a detailed tallying of where money went based on chat logs it would come up to more than 10k+. Either way you only claimed it was 3k. Derp.

[jrhager84]

So some work was NDA but you are not sure all of it is. You didn't compile a list and admit said mistake but then turn around and claim the argument falls flat when saying you are hiding behind a NDA shield? O...kay.

Time will tell. blah blah blah heard that one before.

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So now the terrible video is all due to a PSU. Oh totally makes sense now! *wink wink* So he got less than 3000 dollars mmmhmm

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So which is it? 3000 dollars in assests or 4500 dollars in custom housing + 3k in licenses + that computer he was using to build the shitty demo. Numbers sure do keep changing.

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Also I imagine there was a cost for Unity in the past 3 years as I think it only recently went free. I am sure if there was actually a detailed tallying of where money went based on chat logs it would come up to more than 10k+. Either way you only claimed it was 3k. Derp.

You fail miserably at reading comprehension, I'm afraid. Let me quote what I said, one more time for you:

In fact, even with *everything* that was purchased that we can see thus far - We've only accounted for about 20k of the 100k. That should tell you something...

Yes, the numbers *do* add up -- To the figure I provided.

Also - Unity was *not* the first engine. It was Hero Engine, which *was* free. The 1500 dollar U4 license *is* in that 20k figure I provided, as is the 4500 in custom housing assets that are exclusive to the GM title, and can't be used anywhere else. To borrow from your own terminology: Derp.

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It's also funny that you imagine that there's a cost, because you think it recently went free. Wow - Can you be any more nebulous? Yet, you pound me relentlessly for saying something that isn't so air-tight that you can manipulate it into whatever you want. Interestingly ironic, and consequently hypocritical. Just an observation.