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  1. #381
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    As I said, your Runemaster concept was right in only the broadest strokes. The asian martial arts and Brewmaster elements turned out to be immensely significant to what actually came along.

    Not that your Runemaster is a bad idea; as I also said, it's still something that could be tossed around for future ideas.

    Also, it appears to me that that idea was far more rooted in the Runemaster described in the (not canon) RPG material than anything from WC3. You now claim that all future units have to be sourced from WC3. Of course, you're free to change your mind over the years, but it does make you appear logically inconsistent.
    Yes, the Runemaster was rooted in the tabletop RPG. Blizzard using the far more whimsical Brewmaster concept surprised me. I really didn't believe that Blizzard would create a class that throws barrels of alcohol at targets and gets them drunk, despite the martial art theme of the unit. After that, I realized that Blizzard was adhering to their WC3 heroes for class implementation, and they hadn't wavered from that model since vanilla. Classes that have their abilities split up into several classes since vanilla weren't going to be classes, and classes that have their abilities reserved from current classes are the next classes. The former happened to DHs, and the latter happened with DKs, and Monks.

    There's only two heroes left, and they both share the same theme. A theme absent from WoW's class lineup, just like DKs and Monks before them.

    Regardless, being generally (and vaguely) right once doesn't make you the Oracle of WoW.
    I got the class type right (full hybrid), the armor right, the healing style right, and the archetype right. I think that's quote a bit beyond "vaguely".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Your arguments thus far have been Warlocks that melee are Demon Hunters. Then you went out to say Warlocks are shown to be able to melee. So a Pro-DH argument is a Pro-Warlock argument. You're definitely not being consistent if you see Demon Hunters as the same as Warlocks, yet go out of your way to defame them.
    So you're saying that you now agree that DHs are in fact merely Warlocks that can Melee?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-07-01 at 08:27 AM.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you're saying that you now agree that DHs are in fact merely Warlocks that can Melee?
    No, I don't agree with unofficial headcanon. It just surprises me that you could be inconsistent with your own ideas. Kinda like forgetting to maintain a long-term lie.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Whether you like it or not, the design space issue is okne that GC and Blizzard has pointed out. one of several issues biut probbaly the biggest. And being blunt...that issue isn't really caused by the Demon Hunter NPCs we see in game but by the small paragraph of lore that tells us that DHs made deals with demons, that they use Demon magic sna power and by WC3 that shows Meta is part of their toolkit..

    Where is this paragraph? It's not on battle.net's WC3 DH page:
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml

    Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater Night Elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness.
    It's a "pact with darkness". Not with demons, but with powers and behaviors that get them shunned by civilized society.

    And "selfless", suggesting that a "good" demon hunter is in fact, at heart, noble and sacrificial.

    That is Blizzard's small paragraph that inspires so much interest and optimism for what could be.



    Loramedes uses Demons - Exception
    The Illidrai work with Demons - They aren't true Demon Hunters
    You mean Loramus Thalipedes? He had a few pet felhunters, but the quest Shizz Work lets anybody have one of those as a pet. The green fire quests demonstrates that they aren't intelligent creatures, merely animals.

    As for the Illidari, that organization is Illidan's army of diverse followers. They include demon hunters, warriors, mages, rogues, priests, paladins. Demons, Night Elves, Blood Elves, Naga, and Broken.

    Furthermore, the green fire quest (again) shows that Illidari demons were turned from the legion, and from fel magic. Illidan gave them access to an immense source of arcane power that gave them freedom from Sargeras and the legion, and cleansed them of the green fel-taint.

    Now, it's not clear exactly how the Illidari Demon Hunters were trained or expected to operate. What is clear is that, for all their aggression to outsiders, they still existed apart from and opposed to the Legion, which is the core purpose of a demon hunter.


    You attacked Thimagryn for "ignoring lore", yet you seem to disregard recent warlock lore, and the shape the class story has taken. DH lore is limited and old, but Warlock lore is recent and specific. It's demonstrable in game that warlocks are not pursing melee combat, and are not wholly focused on demonic magic. Even Kanrethad, the ultimate demo lock, had a powerful new destruction spell inspired by Deathwing: Cataclysm.

    The warlock class is not going down a melee road. Dark Apotheosis was hardened survival stance, not a melee combatant. (One I am very sad to lose next expansion). In fact, we look to be learning from Kanrethad's warlock superiority in the next expansion with Cataclysm and Demonic Servitude as level 100 talents. Not at all things I'd expect from a DH.

    We only have a little lore and mechanical inspiration to work from regarding Demon Hunters. It's the reason why so many of us are so willing and able to extrapolate from what is to what could be.

    This is WoW, it's supposed to be a world of unlimited possibilities. Nothing should be considered absolutely impossible. Blizz has expressed interest in bringing Illidan back some day. That could be a great launching pad for a DH class (whether Illidan is the player's class leader, or nemesis again, is entirely open to discussion).

  4. #384
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post


    You attacked Thimagryn for "ignoring lore", yet you seem to disregard recent warlock lore, and the shape the class story has taken. DH lore is limited and old, but Warlock lore is recent and specific. It's demonstrable in game that warlocks are not pursing melee combat, and are not wholly focused on demonic magic. Even Kanrethad, the ultimate demo lock, had a powerful new destruction spell inspired by Deathwing: Cataclysm.

    The warlock class is not going down a melee road. Dark Apotheosis was hardened survival stance, not a melee combatant. (One I am very sad to lose next expansion). In fact, we look to be learning from Kanrethad's warlock superiority in the next expansion with Cataclysm and Demonic Servitude as level 100 talents. Not at all things I'd expect from a DH.

    We only have a little lore and mechanical inspiration to work from regarding Demon Hunters. It's the reason why so many of us are so willing and able to extrapolate from what is to what could be.

    This is WoW, it's supposed to be a world of unlimited possibilities. Nothing should be considered absolutely impossible. Blizz has expressed interest in bringing Illidan back some day. That could be a great launching pad for a DH class (whether Illidan is the player's class leader, or nemesis again, is entirely open to discussion).
    I agree that WoW is a world of unlimited possibilities, however those unlimited possibilities are limited by the reality of a videogame. The reality of that game is the underlying philosophy that people want to play a game where classes feel different from each other.

    Repeatedly pro-DH posters have been asked to show what makes a DH fundamentally different than a Warlock. Thus far only two things have popped up; Origin lore and combat range. Unfortunately, that is not enough to justify the creation of an entirely new class. How do I know this? Because one merely has to think about this same argument applied to several other classes and archetypes to realize that its crazy to believe that Blizzard would implement a 3-spec DH class into the game simply because of a combat range.

    The best ingame example of this is the Shaman class. Shaman are fundamentally a caster class. However, they have Enhancement Shaman. Unlike Resto and Elemental who are INT-based casters, Enhance is an AGI-based DW melee fighter. The pro-DH argument is that Enhancement Shaman would be deserving of their own class simply because Enh Shaman can fight in melee range and Ele and Resto cannot.

    Beyond that, we have Rogues who based on their archetype and lore could use bows and guns. Would a Rogue that uses a bow and arrow be worthy of an entirely new class? Howabout Shockadins? Should we create an entirely new plate class just to facilitate a Paladin that uses all ranged spells? What about a Beastmaster? Should we create an entirely new class just to facilitate a melee Hunter? Howabout Shadow Hunters? Should we create an entirely new class just because Shaman can't use bows?

    This is the crux of the DH argument; Blizzard should use a class slot just so that we can get a Warlock that can Dual wield.

    That's what you're really arguing for.

  5. #385
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A Demon Hunter without demonic powers is not a Demon Hunter.
    I never mentioned he would be without demon powers. By 'physical dps' I meant his attacks would deal physical damage.

    Exactly what separates a DH from a Warlock?
    Training, lore, background, abilities...

    None of what you described disqualifies him as being a Demon Hunter. He's still wielding the twin blades of Azzinoth. He still has the visage of Sargeras, he's still using DH abilities. Furthermore, Demon Hunters transform into demons during metamorphosis.
    Illidan was still a Demon Hunter in Black Temple. He was a corrupted DH, but he was still a DH.
    With extra powers given to him by the corrupted fel energies flooded into his body from the Skull of Gul'dan, which caused, among other changes, his current, permanent satyr-like look. He is a demon now, and has demon powers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I go back to that famous GC quote: "Is there enough design space the not occupied by Warlocks, DKs, Hunters and Warriors?"
    No, there isn't.
    I'm always so glad you don't work as part of Blizzard's developer team...
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #386
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never mentioned he would be without demon powers. By 'physical dps' I meant his attacks would deal physical damage.
    So how would that be any different than a Rogue?


    Training, lore, background, abilities...
    What abilities?


    With extra powers given to him by the corrupted fel energies flooded into his body from the Skull of Gul'dan, which caused, among other changes, his current, permanent satyr-like look. He is a demon now, and has demon powers.
    Permanent metamorphosis. You can do the same thing with Illidan on HotS (and he even looks like he does in WoW). How does that not make him a DH? Metamorphosis is a defining Demon Hunter ability.

  7. #387
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The pro-DH argument is that Enhancement Shaman would be deserving of their own class simply because Enh Shaman can fight in melee range and Ele and Resto cannot.
    WRONG

    Never have DH supporters have ever said Enhancement Shamans should be their own class. Ever. Stop trying to make yourself look good by spouting lies about others. The differences between Warlocks and Demon Hunters go beyond simple 'INT vs AGI'. Their lore are different, their motivations are different, their archetypes are different, basically everything about them, save being somewhat linked to each other through 'demon' theme, is diffrent.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamondjim View Post
    You're opinion nothing more.
    Everything here will be an opinion. Mine is that people want a demon hunter class because of the look or lore. However, I haven't seen anyone say what they would bring mechanically to the game that would justify an extra class slot in an already overbloated list that isn't already brought by any number of other classes (such as DKs, warriors or rogues).

  9. #389
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So how would that be any different than a Rogue?
    I don't know. How is a Windwalker monk different than a Rogue? Both are melee pure physical DPS.

    What abilities?
    Mana Burn is one... and quite a few melee shadow-based spells or physical damage attacks, for one.

    Permanent metamorphosis. You can do the same thing with Illidan on HotS (and he even looks like he does in WoW). How does that not make him a DH? Metamorphosis is a defining Demon Hunter ability.
    Except because, again, HotS is not canon. And 'permanent metamorphosis' on HotS? If it's 'permanent' as you call it, why does it last only 18 seconds? Eternity sure doesn't last as long as we were lead to believe.

    And 'permanent metamorphosis' is not part of the DH's toolkit. Most of Black Temple's Illidan's abilities are not part of the Demon Hunter toolkit. He is not 'only' a Demon Hunter. He is also a demon, and has all the powers it entails. Including, but not limited do, summoning demons.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  10. #390
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    WRONG

    Never have DH supporters have ever said Enhancement Shamans should be their own class. Ever. Stop trying to make yourself look good by spouting lies about others.
    Reread my post. I'm saying that that is what your argument amounts to. As you can see, it is ridiculous. There's no reason to add a class simply because of a combat range.

    The differences between Warlocks and Demon Hunters go beyond simple 'INT vs AGI'. Their lore are different, their motivations are different, their archetypes are different, basically everything about them, save being somewhat linked to each other through 'demon' theme, is diffrent.
    The only difference between them is that one is melee and the other is ranged/caster.

    Motivations and Lore mean little when we're talking about actual gameplay. Take metamorphosis for example.

    Lore: Warlocks observed Illidan and copied the ability, and spread that knowledge to other Warlocks.

    Demon Hunters went through some mysterious training method that probably took years to master in order to turn into a demon. Some went insane in the process.

    Sounds different right? Yeah, until we get to the actual gameplay;

    Gameplay: Push a button, temporarily transform into a demon, increasing the power of your abilities.

    In the end, all that lore and motivation crap means nothing. They're doing the exact same thing.

    Design space and themes is what makes classes different. Unfortunately, DHs have little to spare because its used up by other classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't know. How is a Windwalker monk different than a Rogue? Both are melee pure physical DPS.
    Martial Arts theme vs Assassin/thief/Pirate theme.

    Whats the difference between Bruce Lee and Robin Hood?

    Mana Burn is one... and quite a few melee shadow-based spells or physical damage attacks, for one.
    Mana Burn is no longer in WoW. Shadow melee is the combat range argument. Warlocks do physical damage via metamorphosis.

    Except because, again, HotS is not canon. And 'permanent metamorphosis' on HotS? If it's 'permanent' as you call it, why does it last only 18 seconds? Eternity sure doesn't last as long as we were lead to believe.
    Maybe you should actually play in Alpha before opening your mouth? There's a level 20 talent that makes metamorphosis a toggle/permanent.

    And 'permanent metamorphosis' is not part of the DH's toolkit. Most of Black Temple's Illidan's abilities are not part of the Demon Hunter toolkit. He is not 'only' a Demon Hunter. He is also a demon, and has all the powers it entails. Including, but not limited do, summoning demons.
    Again, metamorphosis is a defining DH ability. In other words, a DH turning into a demon isn't something out of the ordinary, nor would suddenly stop making them Demon Hunters.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-07-01 at 03:22 PM.

  11. #391
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Reread my post. I'm saying that that is what your argument amounts to. As you can see, it is ridiculous. There's no reason to add a class simply because of a combat range.
    No, you didn't say that 'our argument is akin to that', you claim that we want enhancement shamans to be split from shamans, and that is ridiculuous.

    The only difference between them is that one is melee and the other is ranged/caster.
    Motivations and Lore mean little when we're talking about actual gameplay. Take metamorphosis for example.
    Lore: Warlocks observed Illidan and copied the ability, and spread that knowledge to other Warlocks.
    Demon Hunters went through some mysterious training method that probably took years to master in order to turn into a demon. Some went insane in the process.
    Sounds different right? Yeah, until we get to the actual gameplay;
    Gameplay: Push a button, temporarily transform into a demon, increasing the power of your abilities.
    In the end, all that lore and motivation crap means nothing. They're doing the exact same thing.
    Design space and themes is what makes classes different. Unfortunately, DHs have little to spare because its used up by other classes.
    Warlocks vs Shamans: Meta vs Ascension: push a button, temporarily transform, increasing power of abilities.

    Martial Arts theme vs Assassin/thief/Pirate theme.
    Shadow-magic melee vs physical melee. Demonic theme vs assassin/thief/pirate theme

    Mana Burn is no longer in WoW. Rogues and DKs handle that aspect.
    This guy begs to differ. And Mana Burn is a DH ability that can easily be given back to him after a mechanical alteration that still keeps it in tune with its original intent.

    Maybe you should actually play in Alpha before opening your mouth? There's a level 20 talent that makes metamorphosis a toggle/permanent.
    Oh, so it's a talent, not inherent of the ability itself, kind of like glyphs and talents here, gotcha. Ok, DHs could have a talent to keep their shape-changed in perm.

    Again, metamorphosis is a defining DH ability. In other words, a DH turning into a demon isn't something out of the ordinary, nor would suddenly stop making them Demon Hunters.
    Except, mechanic-wise, a Warlock's Meta is no different from a Shaman's Ascension, is it? They shape-change into a greater form and have abilities boosted and/or changed. I still don't see much issue.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #392
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, you didn't say that 'our argument is akin to that', you claim that we want enhancement shamans to be split from shamans, and that is ridiculuous.
    Hilarious.

    Reread the post again please.


    Warlocks vs Shamans: Meta vs Ascension: push a button, temporarily transform, increasing power of abilities.
    One is a Fire, Water, Wind elemental, the other is a demon. Big difference.


    Shadow-magic melee vs physical melee. Demonic theme vs assassin/thief/pirate theme
    Demon Hunters are assassins. So the themes do collide.


    This guy begs to differ. And Mana Burn is a DH ability that can easily be given back to him after a mechanical alteration that still keeps it in tune with its original intent.
    I'm talking about classes. Also, Mana Burn if ever re-implemented would go back to the class that had it first.


    Oh, so it's a talent, not inherent of the ability itself, kind of like glyphs and talents here, gotcha. Ok, DHs could have a talent to keep their shape-changed in perm.
    And it would still overlap heavily with Warlocks.

    Except, mechanic-wise, a Warlock's Meta is no different from a Shaman's Ascension, is it? They shape-change into a greater form and have abilities boosted and/or changed. I still don't see much issue.
    One is a demon form, the other is an elemental form dependent on spec.

    I'm not surprised you don't see a difference.....

  13. #393
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    One is a Fire, Water, Wind elemental, the other is a demon. Big difference.
    Yet, mechanically, the exact same thing.

    Demon Hunters are assassins. So the themes do collide.
    So can be hunters and warriors.

    I'm talking about classes. Also, Mana Burn if ever re-implemented would go back to the class that had it first.
    Or it could go to the Demon Hunter when it is implemented. You're stating opinion as fact.

    And it would still overlap heavily with Warlocks.
    Not it is changed to be meaninfully different.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #394
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yet, mechanically, the exact same thing.
    Warlocks in Metamorphosis can be Banished, are affected by Turn Evil, and get auto critted by Exorcism.

    Shaman can't while in Ascendance.

    So mechanically its not the exact same thing.

    So can be hunters and warriors.
    Link?

    Or it could go to the Demon Hunter when it is implemented. You're stating opinion as fact.
    It wouldn't though, because it would upset Shadow Priests. Established classes take precedence over conceptual classes. Why? Because the established classes have paying customers playing them.

    Not it is changed to be meaninfully different.
    Permanent demon form does nothing to change the fact that you have two demon-based classes that can both transform into demons.

  15. #395
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Warlocks in Metamorphosis can be Banished, are affected by Turn Evil, and get auto critted by Exorcism.
    Shaman can't while in Ascendance.
    So mechanically its not the exact same thing.
    Exorcism does not auto-crit. And, in your words: push a button, change forms, spells get stronger. So, yes, exactly like Ascendance.

    Link?
    I assume I don't need to explain the definition of 'assassin' to you. I'll presume you're smart enough to know about it. So, straight to the evidence: Hunters don't Track Humanoids just to find and ask them if they let Jesus in their hearts. And, as for Warriors, just look at their ability list. They are not about making tea parties or cultivate flower gardens. They're about killing.

    It wouldn't though, because it would upset Shadow Priests.
    Stating of unbased opinion as fact.

    Established classes take precedence over conceptual classes. Why? Because the established classes have paying customers playing them.
    That didn't stop Blizzard from renaming the Warlock's Death Coil ability. Mana Burn belonged originally to Demon Hunters. And when they are implemented, if Blizzard does what I suggested to the 'Mana Burn' skill, it'll very likely go to the Demon Hunters.

    Permanent demon form does nothing to change the fact that you have two demon-based classes that can both transform into demons.
    And several ways of circling around that have been shown around here. One would be to make the DH's form to be melee-centric. Difference.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #396
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Exorcism does not auto-crit. And, in your words: push a button, change forms, spells get stronger. So, yes, exactly like Ascendance.
    While shapeshifted, the demon-form warlock can be banished. Demon form is also susceptible to Turn Evil and grants an auto-crit on Exorcism but is immune to enslave demon.
    Also you speak Demonic instead of your normal language.
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis

    I suppose the Druid's Incarnation talent, and the Warrior's Avatar talent is the same as well....

    Except they're not, because a demon is different from those other forms. Further, a Demon Hunter would also transform into a demon, which WOULD be mechanically the same thing.

    I assume I don't need to explain the definition of 'assassin' to you. I'll presume you're smart enough to know about it. So, straight to the evidence: Hunters don't Track Humanoids just to find and ask them if they let Jesus in their hearts. And, as for Warriors, just look at their ability list. They are not about making tea parties or cultivate flower gardens. They're about killing.
    Thanks for providing yet another reason why Demon Hunters shouldn't be in the game.

    That didn't stop Blizzard from renaming the Warlock's Death Coil ability. Mana Burn belonged originally to Demon Hunters. And when they are implemented, if Blizzard does what I suggested to the 'Mana Burn' skill, it'll very likely go to the Demon Hunters.
    The difference being of course that Warlocks never had the original WC3 version of DC.

    And several ways of circling around that have been shown around here. One would be to make the DH's form to be melee-centric. Difference.
    And here we are again with the only difference being melee and ranged.

    That's not enough to base a class on.

  17. #397
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The only reason Warlocks could be auto-crit by Exorcism while in demon form is because the Exorcism spell itself had an auto-crit component against demons. A component that is no longer there.

    I suppose the Druid's Incarnation talent, and the Warrior's Avatar talent is the same as well....
    Druid's Incarnation? Yes, it is. Boosts and changes some abilities' functionality. Warrior's Avatar? No. It's just a straight-forward damage boost.

    Thanks for providing yet another reason why Demon Hunters shouldn't be in the game.
    Except I didn't.

    The difference being of course that Warlocks never had the original WC3 version of DC.
    Doesn't change the fact Mana Burn belongs originally to DHs.

    And here we are again with the only difference being melee and ranged.
    That's not enough to base a class on.
    By itself? No, I agree. It's not enough. But coupled with all the other differences, it's quite enough. After all, we have Paladins and Priests, and one of the big differences between them is melee/ranged separation.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  18. #398
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The only reason Warlocks could be auto-crit by Exorcism while in demon form is because the Exorcism spell itself had an auto-crit component against demons. A component that is no longer there.
    I love how you're focused on this one little thing while the fact that Meta'd Warlocks being effected by Banish and Turn Evil disproves your argument regardless.

    Except I didn't.
    Except you did. The fact that we have multiple classes capable of fillibg the "assassin" niche makes the design space for the DH even more slim. Let's also not forget that Hunters also hunt demons, which makes them demon hunters.

    Doesn't change the fact Mana Burn belongs originally to DHs.
    And that doesn't change the fact that Mana Burn isn't returning to the classes.

    By itself? No, I agree. It's not enough. But coupled with all the other differences, it's quite enough. After all, we have Paladins and Priests, and one of the big differences between them is melee/ranged separation.
    The other being that one uses Shadow magic and the other doesn't, and that one is primarily a healing class while the other is not. Warlocks and DHs use the same schools of magic for the same purposes.

    Which is why we have to ignore Illidan Stormrage. He's too close to Warlocks to fit your crazy version of Demon Hunters. A version that even Blizzard doesn't support.

  19. #399
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I love how you're focused on this one little thing while the fact that Meta'd Warlocks being effected by Banish and Turn Evil disproves your argument regardless.
    Humans can be affected by turn evil, regardless. Druids can be affected by hibernate.

    Except you did. The fact that we have multiple classes capable of fillibg the "assassin" niche makes the design space for the DH even more slim. Let's also not forget that Hunters also hunt demons, which makes them demon hunters.
    And those classes didn't make the rogue any less possible. Hunters have pets, that didn't make the Warlock class obsolete.

    And that doesn't change the fact that Mana Burn isn't returning to the classes.
    'Fact'? What 'fact' is this you're talking about? When Blizzard said, in no uncertain terms, that Mana Burn is not coming back? Also, remember to prove that Blizzard never goes back on their words.

    The other being that one uses Shadow magic and the other doesn't, and that one is primarily a healing class while the other is not. Warlocks and DHs use the same schools of magic for the same purposes.
    And why not give the Demon Hunter more stuff? Like, for instance, an arcane spec? Maybe even a melee arcane spec? I'm not sure you noticed, but no class in World of Warcraft is comprised of one, and only one, unit from WC3. They are ALL a merging of more than one WC3 unit.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #400
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Humans can be affected by turn evil, regardless.
    Only if you talent into it.

    Druids can be affected by hibernate.
    Because they can turn into beasts. FYI: Beasts and Demons aren't the same thing mechanically either.

    And those classes didn't make the rogue any less possible.
    Because Rogues have more than just the Assassination angle going for it. It encompasses thieves, pirates, spies, and other aspects of WoW.

    Hunters have pets, that didn't make the Warlock class obsolete.
    Hunters have beast pets. Warlocks have demon minions/slaves. Again a big difference that you simply don't get for whatever reason.

    'Fact'? What 'fact' is this you're talking about? When Blizzard said, in no uncertain terms, that Mana Burn is not coming back? Also, remember to prove that Blizzard never goes back on their words.
    Does Blizzard actually need to say that? I think their actions with Mana Burn and Mana Drain is evidence enough.

    And why not give the Demon Hunter more stuff?
    Because we're only giving Demon Hunters more stuff to avoid their obvious closeness with Warlocks and other classes. When it gets to that point, you have a problem with lack of design space. We didn't need to do that with DKs or Monks. We wouldn't need to do that with a technology/tinker class.

    However, with DHs we need to change names, abilities, ignore attributes from DH NPCs, and add crap that doesn't even fit the concept.

    That's not a good sign.

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