[Retribution] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Tangra]

The easiest solution to the cleave issue I can think of is for Censure to do more damage if it affects multiple targets, with a cap at 3 targets. So, Censure should do double damage if it's on 2 targets and triple if it's on 3 targets. It would also be really nice to make it so that refreshing one stack of Censure refreshes them all, this way you can get Censure up on 3 targets and then switch to SoR, with all stacks fully refreshed.

[Deleted]

Does anyone know about the AoE DPS of Rets in WoD?

[Tangra]

Does anyone know about the AoE DPS of Rets in WoD?

It's too random according to most people who have posted in this thread, due to needing EmpDS procs.

[Deleted]

It's too random according to most people who have posted in this thread, due to needing EmpDS procs.

I don't think most are complaining about that at all, and I didn't think it was too bad. Granted, any sort of proc based capacity means you can be without it when you most need it. However, having to burst AoE at given times is not that essential for a single player, it only hurts your ranks and not the raid's success.

[Deleted]

Are there any plans to adjust HotR? At the moment it is entirely too weak, requiring 4-5 targets to see a DPS gain is simply too many to warrant its use as a spell. How often will we see 4+ targets that actually matter?

They have yet to remove HotR's target condition. For ranged it could work, but for melee, when the targets always run around you just in spite , it's too frustrating to hop and turn around like a headless chicken too.. -_-

[nyc81991]

I must say if things go live as they are and stay roughly that way for even a single tier, I will be pleasantly surprised with Ret for what seems like the first time in forever. There are little problems all over the place of course, but we actually seem reasonably solid for PvE AND PvP for once.

My main gripe at the moment though is cleave, or lack of it. Ret feels extremely meh on 2-3 targets, you don't really have any way to step up your damage like the other classes, or take advantage. HotR feels extremely out of place to me now, what exactly is the point of it. It didn't get the buff along with crusader strike and so now it has fallen even further behind. It only seems to really become properly useful on 5/6+ targets, which is just terrible for an AoE rotation builder, compared to most classes.

At this point I think we could stand to lose it, to be perfectly honest I never knew why they added it to Ret in the first place, seems just like adding another button for the sake of it.

I would far rather either crusader strike or judgement simply hit up to 2 nearby targets, or hell even Exo - it would finally give it a priority niche.

Honestly, Divine Storm needs about a 10% buff from where it is right now and Hammer of the Righteous should be buffed to match Crusader Strike again. Other than that we are fine.

Well other than Seraphim still being really bland and Seal of Justice being worse than it was in MoP.

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing them nerf Sword of Light by about 5% or so. I feel like Auto attack is just way too much of our damage. More Active abilities should be higher Auto attack. Censure also should do a bit more damage than it does now, which is pretty terrible.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I don't think most are complaining about that at all, and I didn't think it was too bad. Granted, any sort of proc based capacity means you can be without it when you most need it. However, having to burst AoE at given times is not that essential for a single player, it only hurts your ranks and not the raid's success.

That's BS, unless your class/spec has reliable numbers to provide and your raid is struggling to get past a point you'll be the first to go- weakest link.
It's also not just about the AoE burst for "padding" (stupid to consider personal ranks...) for sustained AoE we're also way-way too spread out when it comes to our numbers, take a look at DKs and Warriors- they have consistent and reliable cleave/aoe which we don't and that's the biggest problem. RNG should NOT matter nearly as much as it currently does for Ret AoE, it's terrible for balancing purposes and it's terrible for raiding...

[Reghame]

That's BS, unless your class/spec has reliable numbers to provide and your raid is struggling to get past a point you'll be the first to go- weakest link.
It's also not just about the AoE burst for "padding" (stupid to consider personal ranks...) for sustained AoE we're also way-way too spread out when it comes to our numbers, take a look at DKs and Warriors- they have consistent and reliable cleave/aoe which we don't and that's the biggest problem. RNG should NOT matter nearly as much as it currently does for Ret AoE, it's terrible for balancing purposes and it's terrible for raiding...

id be slightly ok with it if i could top the charts sometimes with that random AOE, but right now its either lowest AOE dps to alright AOE dps. AKA if you take the average of that our AOE is pure trash and this all lies on the fact that DS and HotR do close to zero damage right now. Some of that is because people also complained that a proc that relied on 2 things working for it might beat a passive buff to TV............... ( looking at all you final verdict haters saying procs should not out dps passive abilities!)

Then again, many of our spec's potential to do good also breaks their game because LOL no AOE in single target ( for paladins) no utility and damage at the same time! (for paladins) no mobility and damage for PVP (for paladins) no sustained damage if you have burst! ( for paladins )
See the trend yet?

- - - Updated - - -

oh and my favorite! No raid wide utility as a dps ( for paladin, everyone else can have one though!)

[mrn10ct]

But zomg u have a castable heal and you can lay on hands and bubble and its like, wtf i have to kill you 3 times this is crap, and now you want to do top dps and top healing with other stuff too and the fact that you are unkillable plus have the bext cc in the game, lolol pally op stop whining l2p because ive played some good ret and ret is srsly op because they beat me in a duel once and i never lose duels also when i was 3 i walked in on a ret with my mom so screw ret you are op.



Honestly I think they need to keep our basic damage, increase DS to 100%, increase HotR damage by 50%, and then do a ground up overhaul of our healing/utility/mobility/survival. But that is just me.

[Deleted]

That's BS, unless your class/spec has reliable numbers to provide and your raid is struggling to get past a point you'll be the first to go- weakest link.
It's also not just about the AoE burst for "padding" (stupid to consider personal ranks...) for sustained AoE we're also way-way too spread out when it comes to our numbers, take a look at DKs and Warriors- they have consistent and reliable cleave/aoe which we don't and that's the biggest problem. RNG should NOT matter nearly as much as it currently does for Ret AoE, it's terrible for balancing purposes and it's terrible for raiding...

Where's your evidence?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Where's your evidence?

Did you even test mythic on beta? Have you seen our simulations for aoe situations, more specifically the high and low points? Have you raided SoO, how's our AoE RNG there? In WoD it's going to make a bigger impact to have RNG at the right time or not compared to MoP.

Sol is working up on a updated AoE simulation (simulations aren't really functional for raiding scenarios) and if you honestly think the AoE system we have is functional, just because something is "fun" doesn't mean it's good. I'm sure it's awesome to do drugs, doesn't mean it's good for you...

Do you honestly think our AoE is in a good state mechanic and damage wise?

[mrn10ct]

when you say our rng aoe I assume you are speaking of DP + EmpDS. Honestly what I've noticed from SoO 5.4 is that if the mob is significant enough to survive for more than a couple of hits, its not really unreliable. I mean, you have 2 25% chances to get free DS that can proc off each other and have no ICD. You would have to be extremely unlucky to really suffer at the hands of rng.

What is more true is
1) the shorter the AoE time, the more proc dependent our AoE becomes.
2) they seem to be punishing DS due to the functionality of Final Verdict.
3) HotR is too weak to be useful in most situations.
4) Seraphim, due to the massive Holy Power cost, has fewer potential procs than other level 100 talents and is therefore more RNG reliant.
5) Our inability to effectively cleave on 2 targets is pretty fail design wise.
6) We still lack an effective ground target or no target AoE.


possible solutions?
1) Deal with it, extremely short AoE situations often don't matter
2) Change the functionality of FV so that rather than provide occasionally huge DS it provides a steady increase to all HP consumers, this will also give it some additional utility similar to that provided by seraphim (through versatility) and EmpS (through judging justice or insight)

FV - TV does holy damage, DS damage and WoG healing are increased by ~30%

Without the fear of Double buffed DS you can safely move DS up to 100% weapon damage.

3&6) HotR -Slam the ground causing 35% Holy weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards.
4) Allow Seraphim to proc both DP and EmpDS.
5) That ones tougher to figure out, maybe a fusion fire core type short term buff so it would have no bearing on single target damage, with a cap of 2 additional targets to keep pure AoE impact minimal.

Zeal - Cost 1 Holy Power. Your attacks cleave, dealing 35% of the original attack damage to up to two other nearby targets for 15 seconds. Does not affect seal or censure.

[nyc81991]

Did you even test mythic on beta? Have you seen our simulations for aoe situations, more specifically the high and low points? Have you raided SoO, how's our AoE RNG there? In WoD it's going to make a bigger impact to have RNG at the right time or not compared to MoP.

Sol is working up on a updated AoE simulation (simulations aren't really functional for raiding scenarios) and if you honestly think the AoE system we have is functional, just because something is "fun" doesn't mean it's good. I'm sure it's awesome to do drugs, doesn't mean it's good for you...

Do you honestly think our AoE is in a good state mechanic and damage wise?

Literally all they have to do is buff Divine Storm another 10 - 15% so it is worth using on 2 targets, and Hammer of the Righteous to make up for the recent CS buffs. Our AoE is great otherwise. Especially now that Seal of Righteousness hits as hard as Truth.

Seraphim should give a guaranteed Empowered Divine Storm proc when used to make up for the 5 Holy Power cost which leaves you sitting with no Holy Power.

It does appear that Hammer of Wrath doesn't proc Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Justice anymore. Anyone know anything about this? I really liked how that worked on beta.

[Deleted]

Did you even test mythic on beta?

I did and I still have the videos on Youtube showing my very consistent levels of damage fight after fight after fight. Don't remember you ever posting any videos, logs or numbers of your own.

[Deleted]

Do you honestly think our AoE is in a good state mechanic and damage wise?

Yep. 10chars

[Doodledoo]

I did and I still have the videos on Youtube showing my very consistent levels of damage fight after fight after fight. Don't remember you ever posting any videos, logs or numbers of your own.

lol owned.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I did and I still have the videos on Youtube showing my very consistent levels of damage fight after fight after fight. Don't remember you ever posting any videos, logs or numbers of your own.

I have very different experience with our AoE, mechanic wise WoD aoe is the same as SoO aoe and that's terrible as well...

[Deleted]

I have very different experience with our AoE, mechanic wise WoD aoe is the same as SoO aoe and that's terrible as well...

But where is your experience?

[Deleted]

Our AoE is absolutely fine in any situation where the targets don't blow up in a few globals - i.e absolutely fine for progress and "eh" during farm. For someone who loves to lord it over the rest of us how you never pad, Bear, I can't for the life of me figure out what your issue with our AoE is. Is the DPS variance from baseline to "perfect parse ayy lmao 420 proc it" pretty high? Sure. But our baseline AoE is fine mechanically and really just needs to be buffed to a point where 2-target cleave is worth it.

So long as they make DS and HotR worth casting on 2 targets, we're absolutely fine. We look to be a top 10 spec on single-target and quite frankly no spec should be able to do absolutely everything disgustingly well - that's MoP warlock all over again and nobody wants a repeat of that shitshow.

[Flarpy]

My AoE experience in SoO was actually not that bad, especially if the adds were up for a bit. I was competitive, and many times would beat our destro locks and combat rogues (though I do understand they sim higher). WoD actually buffs our AoE in a few ways, so I am actually pretty cool with out aoe. In addition, I HATE censure spreading, so I actually like the nerf to censure and the buff to SoR. I prefer to have the feeling of an AoE seal and a single target seal, and the changes to seal have made that more possible.