Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. Ruling

[Cthulhu 2020]

All insurance and medical coverage rescinded, because "He wills it." You got butthole cancer because it was "His will" and therefore we cannot interfere.

This is how most of religious moral code is, and why it's such a bullshit ruling; cherry picking "Beliefs" and even making most up. HL still has large investments in pharmaceutical and medical companies that supply abortion/contraceptive meds/supplies. Oops, so much for their "Truly held belief".

[Tradewind]

This is how most of religious moral code is, and why it's such a bullshit ruling; cherry picking "Beliefs" and even making most up. HL still has large investments in pharmaceutical and medical companies that supply abortion/contraceptive meds/supplies. Oops, so much for their "Truly held belief".

Money trumps all.

[Rukentuts]

Money trumps all.

It even trumps that belief that blessed are the poor.

[Kellhound]

Let's put it this way - Let's say that you need Chemotherapy (By Right Wing Nut Definition Life is Right at Conception so a clump of non-sentient cells begins dividing and creating "Life") - Your employer says that Chemotherapy, which would be the best way to cure your condition, is a violation of their religious values but will allow you 15 other means to get rid of your cancer. Because by Wing Nut logic - Cancer Cells and the beginnings of pregnancy are pretty damn close. Is that acceptable? Because it happened in 2009...

Pregnancy involves a parasite, cancer does not, as it is just an abnormal growth of almost identical cells to that of the normal cells around it.

[bergmann620]

Wow. Excepting Endus (and even he hasn't responded to my challenges to his examples) the anti-HL side in this thread has gone completely off the rails. The pro-HL side has one wheel off, so that's not much better, but still... Damn, guys.

[zackeryt]

The Greens are denying them choice based on their beliefs. What is the difference with a woman using her pay check from the Greens to buy Plan B vs allowing the option as part of a healtcare plan? Either way it goes the Greens are "purchasing it" for use.

I think the argument would be that the Greens aren't directly buying the contraceptives they don't like. What the employee does with her money is her business, their sense of responsability only goes as far as what they do/pay for directly.

Interesting question though: The supreme court didn't hear the case of a christian business owner who didn't want to provide their service to a lesbian wedding because of their beliefs. Yet they said they do have protections against doing something they don't want to based on their religion. How does that work?

[Cthulhu 2020]

It even trumps that belief that blessed are the poor.

Matthew 19:24

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

[Tastyfish]

Why is the wording on the actual thing, including limiting doctors from even speaking about abortion to their employees?
Why do you people think that is ok?

8. The administrative rule at issue in this case ("the Mandate") runs roughshod
over the Green family' s religious beliefs, and the beliefs of millions of other Americans,
by forcing them to provide health insurance coverage for abortion-inducing drugs and
devices, as well as related education and counseling.
88. The Mandáte also requires group health care plans and issuers to provide
education and counseling for all women benefíciaries with reproductive capacity.
93. No religious groups or other groups that oppose government-mandated
coverage of contraception, sterilization, abortion, and related education and counseling were among the invited presenters.
103. The Mandáte requires that Plaintiffs provide coverage or access to coverage for
abortion-causing drugs and related education and counseling against their consciences in a manner that is contrary to law.
119. Providing thts counseling and education is incompatible and irreconcilable
with Plaintiffs' express messages and speech.



Plan B IS abortion?
1 14. Pian B, Ella, and certain IUDs can cause the death of the embryo.
115. The use of artificial means to prevent the implantation of a human embryo in
the wall of the uterus constitutes an "abortion" as that term is used in federal law.

[NYC17]

I told you why - because they are a complete dismissal that it is possible for individuals to think objectively. Not all human's ascribe to "human nature" or their respective gender's common way of thinking and interpreting events, when making decisions that affect others.


I haven't denied any of these facts. Not a single one of these are an automatic indication of an innate sexual bias within the reasoning of the majority justice's opinion.

Yes, you "told" me why, but it doesn't hold water, and it's generally bullshit. If you believe that they are capable of neutrality simply because they are Justices of the Supreme Court, then I support your willful ignorance.

Yes, they are all INDICATIONS of an automatic sexual bias. Unless of course you believe that the 4 women who have served on the Supreme Court just coincidentally continuously vote on the side that favors women. Everyone has biases. Pretending otherwise is head-in-the-sand kiddy games that is a requirement of parqtisan politics.

[Deleted]

Which in turn are largely based on universal human values. Mostly.

more reverse, most of our "universal" (they aren't, the west just like to pretend they are) are derived from Christianity.

[Deleted]

An adult Jehovah's Witness can refuse transfusions, themselves. They cannot deny transfusions to their child. The state will use that refusal as grounds to establish legal guardianship over the child and overrule the parents. There's outstanding case law supporting this throughout most, if not all, of the United States. Because the "free exercise" clause applies to you, not pushing your religious stance on anyone else.

Which Hobby Lobby aren't.

Pay for your own birth control.

This is a false equivalency because a morning after pill and even an abortion are luxury goods and services for choices people make that Hobby Lobby have absolutely nothing to do with.

Is not paying for a morning after pill going to kill someone? Even if it did, these women are grown adults making their own decision to have sex. The consequences of their choices have nothing to do with Hobby Lobby so HL shouldn't have to pay for it. It seems that people just want private businesses to redistribute their wealth.


You want someone's private business to pay for a woman's sex life and to pay for something that some people believe constitutes abortion.

You lost.

[Chrysia]

more reverse, most of our "universal" (they aren't, the west just like to pretend they are) are derived from Christianity.

Cite specific examples of currently Constitutional law that are based specifically in Christianity.

Murder and theft were laws long before Christianity, and long before the Torah was ever committed to anything other than oral tradition.

[Tradewind]

more reverse, most of our "universal" (they aren't, the west just like to pretend they are) are derived from Christianity.

such as...?

It's not as if 'theft' and 'murder' suddenly became bad when the bible came around. This is just gibberish...

[Tastyfish]

Cite specific examples of currently Constitutional law that are based specifically in Christianity.

Murder and theft were laws long before Christianity, and long before the Torah was ever committed to anything other than oral tradition.

We can even see tradition of that past the eldest of our religions.

[Rukentuts]

Which Hobby Lobby aren't.

Pay for your own birth control.

This is a false equivalency because a morning after pill and even an abortion are luxury goods and services for choices people make that Hobby Lobby have absolutely nothing to do with.

Is not paying for a morning after pill going to kill someone? Even if it did, these women are grown adults making their own decision to have sex. The consequences of their choices have nothing to do with Hobby Lobby so HL shouldn't have to pay for it. It seems that people just want private businesses to redistribute their wealth.


You want someone's private business to pay for a woman's sex life and to pay for something that some people believe constitutes abortion.

You lost.

I'm pretty sure this is a Rush Limbaugh transcript.

[Tastyfish]

You want someone's private business to pay for a woman's sex life and to pay for something that some people believe constitutes abortion.
You lost.

They shouldn't be allowed to dictate that doctors cannot talk to their employees about such things, which is part of the complaint.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You lost.

More like America lost the move into the 21st century with this abortion of a supreme court, but that's just a small distinction, really.

[Endus]

This is a false equivalency because a morning after pill and even an abortion are luxury goods and services for choices people make that Hobby Lobby have absolutely nothing to do with.

That would be grounds to argue that they shouldn't be mandated coverage under the ACA for anyone, not to ask for an exemption to that requirement.

They aren't making the argument you're trying to make, here. They're agreeing that it should be covered under that requirement, they just think they, individually, shouldn't have to abide by it, for religious reasons. That's explicitly what the case was about.

[Kellhound]

No.

It's based on rational ethics. Killing people is bad. Stealing is bad. There's nothing inherently religious about that, those things are universally bad across most cultures. There are reasons why those things are bad that have nothing to do with religion.

You will note the "". Rational ethics in support of the evolution of our laws works at the micro level, but historically breaks down very badly at the macro level. What is "clearly" unethical to man time immortal generally only applies to our "group". Murder is bad, killing the enemy in battle good. Stealing is bad, conquering others and taking their land is (historically) good. Religion is often the bridge between those "breaks" in ethics.

[Chrysia]

You want someone's private business to pay for a woman's sex life and to pay for something that some people believe constitutes abortion.

You lost.

How exactly is someone pushing their religious belief that an abortion takes place prior to the medical beginning of pregnancy not pushing their religious belief on others?

Contraception (which the World Health Organization consider essential medicines) isn't privately supporting their sex life, it's maintaining their health and allowing them to live the life they choose while continuing to work.