Necrotic Plague seems rather underwhelming

[Lessthanzer0]

I've done some testing in Shatt as blood. From what I've experienced Necrotic Plague is pretty mandatory right now. Blood runic power regen is pretty crappy. I don't think they are gunna nerf NP though but rather fix bloods RP regen in another way. Even on a single target fight with NP our RP regen seems a little low. I know that on live we are GCD capped and they wanted that to change but I think they took it a little too far.

Now one thing I've noticed that's pretty overpowered in an AOE situation is how NP, Conversion and Enhanced Death Coil work together. Conversion converts RP into 2% of your max hp every 1 second. When I was trying this on the pack of 5 dungeon tank dummies, I was able to keep conversion up constantly and I could still use death coil every few seconds. Since death coil increases our max hp by 5% for 30 seconds per stack with enhanced death coil, I was able to keep about a 8-14k per second stream of healing on me. That's quite a bit of self healing considering it was endless.

I haven't tried this on single target yet but I would assume I would run out of RP much faster. I'm also not sure what the minimum number of targets needed for this is but I'd assume 3 or 4 would still work, you just wouldn't be able to death coil as much. Either way it's pretty OP if you have a pack of adds that will live for a decent amount of time.

Next time I play my dk I'll pay more attention to the damage output from NP and get some comparisons with FF and BP. I might be able to get some logs going.

[Deztru]

Now one thing I've noticed that's pretty overpowered in an AOE situation is how NP, Conversion and Enhanced Death Coil work together. Conversion converts RP into 2% of your max hp every 1 second. When I was trying this on the pack of 5 dungeon tank dummies, I was able to keep conversion up constantly and I could still use death coil every few seconds. Since death coil increases our max hp by 5% for 30 seconds per stack with enhanced death coil, I was able to keep about a 8-14k per second stream of healing on me. That's quite a bit of self healing considering it was endless.

This will be nerfed be sure of it.

Conversion has been bad for PvE so far because it always overheals, but now as healing will be slowed down a lot and tank damage increased this would be too good.

[Deleted]

Can NP be spread by Pestilence? (sorry if this has been asked a million times)

[Deleted]

Can NP be spread by Pestilence? (sorry if this has been asked a million times)

Yes it can. It doesn't spread duration and stacks, however.

[Deleted]

Yes it can. It doesn't spread duration and stacks, however.

Ah, fair enough.

[Sarkol]

Yes it can. It doesn't spread duration and stacks, however.

This is false. Pestilence will find the longest duration NP in range, and copy it exactly to all mobs in range. It will replace their current disease if they have one also. This is as Unholy and Frost.


AS blood.(Celestalon referred to having Scent of Blood.) Pestilence will spread NP to other mobs in range, or, if they already have it, it will add a stack.

This was fro ma Theorycrafting discussion.

[Deleted]

Just tested it on Beta.

As blood, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it applies a 1 stack 30s duration NP to all targets hit that don't already have NP on them, and adds one stack of NP if they already have it.
As frost, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it spreads NP to all targets hit at current stack count but with 30s duration. It doesn't add stacks to infected targets. It does spread the longest duration NP, and it does overwrite existing NP with shorter durations (even if they have a higher stack count). So on a multitarget-fight, it's possible to have a 15 stack NP permanently running on all targets (however, you are sacrificing a death rune for it)

I think NP/Pest is working correctly for blood, but the refreshed duration for frost (and probably for unholy, haven't tested it specifically) is probably bugged.

[Faenlyn]

Just tested it on Beta.

As blood, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it applies a 1 stack 30s duration NP to all targets hit that don't already have NP on them, and adds one stack of NP if they already have it.
As frost, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it spreads NP to all targets hit at current stack count but with 30s duration. It doesn't add stacks to infected targets. It does spread the longest duration NP, and it does overwrite existing NP with shorter durations (even if they have a higher stack count). So on a multitarget-fight, it's possible to have a 15 stack NP permanently running on all targets (however, you are sacrificing a death rune for it)

I think NP/Pest is working correctly for blood, but the refreshed duration for frost (and probably for unholy, haven't tested it specifically) is probably bugged.

I'm confused. You just confirmed what Sarkol posted above you as the intended mechanic for Frost/Unholy vs Blood per Celestalon so why would it be a bug? I'm more confused as to why Blood should have different NP aoe mechanics than Frost/Unholy

[Skarssen]

As blood, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it applies a 1 stack 30s duration NP to all targets hit that don't already have NP on them, and adds one stack of NP if they already have it.
As frost, if Pest strikes a diseased target, it spreads NP to all targets hit at current stack count but with 30s duration. It doesn't add stacks to infected targets. It does spread the longest duration NP, and it does overwrite existing NP with shorter durations (even if they have a higher stack count). So on a multitarget-fight, it's possible to have a 15 stack NP permanently running on all targets (however, you are sacrificing a death rune for it)

I think NP/Pest is working correctly for blood, but the refreshed duration for frost (and probably for unholy, haven't tested it specifically) is probably bugged.

That is going to be nerfed/changed. The way Blizzard is pruning and altering specs for "simplicity", something as complicated as NP currently seems to be is surely in their sights.

[Aeriel]

That is going to be nerfed/changed. The way Blizzard is pruning and altering specs for "simplicity", something as complicated as NP currently seems to be is surely in their sights.

Sounds bugged more than anything, since Festering Strike has been stated as the only intended way to extend NP. Also, this talent very clearly fits under the adage of "easy to use, difficult to master". However that adage might have left with GC.

[Deleted]

I'm confused. You just confirmed what Sarkol posted above you as the intended mechanic for Frost/Unholy vs Blood per Celestalon so why would it be a bug? I'm more confused as to why Blood should have different NP aoe mechanics than Frost/Unholy

Not really, Sarkol said frost/unholy spread NP with both stacks AND duration, but on beta it only spreads stacks, but resets duration (not on the "source" target, but all target NP spreads to, even if they already have a instance of NP on them).
Blood and Frost/Unholy have different mechanics because the downside of NP is supposed to be that it falls off, and you have to manually reapply it, even in AoE scenarios. However, as a tank it is important to always be able to spread diseases in order to get aggro of newly spawned adds. NP is extremely weird and complicated to understand in AoE scenarios, I don't think it will go live without major changes to its core mechanics. Especially as Blood NP is (mechanics-wise) a bad choice in most situations. Unfortunately, it is so ridiculously strong you have to take it anyway.

[Faesroll]

Why would you ever pick this talent over defile anyway?

[Deleted]

Why would you ever pick this talent over defile anyway?

Because it does a ton more damage than defile, the 10% reduction from defile usually aren't needed and the RP generation from NP currently is ridiculously huge. Without it, you have about 50% downtime, with it you are gcd-locked at about 2-3 targets.
The devs already stated this is not intended, NP will be nerfed and blood downtime will be adressed, but currently this is how it looks.

[Baphomette]

The devs already stated this is not intended, NP will be nerfed and blood downtime will be adressed, but currently this is how it looks.

They have not (to my knowledge) said that it will be further nerfed since the RP/hit was reduced from 5 to 2. Hopefully they bring the other two talents up rather than dropping NP any more than they have.

[Dasani]

I think the biggest problem with necrotic plague will be balancing it's damage.

It will have to do more damage on average than frost fever + blood plague and for Frost and Blood that means somewhere in about the middle of the duration it has to do about the same, after that point more, and before that point less. So the damage fluxuates up and down constantly, but averages out to be higher.

The problem is Unholy throws a wrench into the mix because they can get their stack to 15 and keep it there literally forever meaning if half stacks do more damage than frost fever + blood plague combined, necrotic plague will end up being SIGNIFICANTLY stronger for unholy for the extra stacks and unlimited duration. Even if it occasionally falls off due to external circumstances like target switching to mobs far away or whatever, it'll still be the best thing to get as unholy hands down, nothing else will ever compare.

So they'll either have to more or less say NP is mandatory for unholy, and balance unholy under the assumption that they'll have 15 stack NP running all the time, or try to find some way to balance it but I honestly don't see how they could with unholy's unique ability to extend the duration. That makes it stronger beyond words.

I predict either NP will be balanced as mandatory for unholy OR it will have a different functionality or behave differently as unholy OR they will have to remove unholy's ability to extend it's duration OR give all 3 specs a way to extend it's duration and then balance around keeping it at 15 stacks at all times which ultimately means it'll do much less damage than current design but would still be better than conventional diseases.

[Aeriel]

I think the biggest problem with necrotic plague will be balancing it's damage.

It will have to do more damage on average than frost fever + blood plague and for Frost and Blood that means somewhere in about the middle of the duration it has to do about the same, after that point more, and before that point less. So the damage fluxuates up and down constantly, but averages out to be higher

The problem is Unholy throws a wrench into the mix because they can get their stack to 15 and keep it there literally forever meaning if half stacks do more damage than frost fever + blood plague combined, necrotic plague will end up being SIGNIFICANTLY stronger for unholy for the extra stacks and unlimited duration. Even if it occasionally falls off due to external circumstances like target switching to mobs far away or whatever, it'll still be the best thing to get as unholy hands down, nothing else will ever compare..

The issue here is that if NP = FF+BP at even 10 stacks, then it would be 50%stronger at 15 stacks. The only way to balance it would be that the damage would have to be equal at >12.5 stacks or NP would be more than 16% stronger discounting the extra damage from mastery. Unholy needs a chance for the diseases to drop off (FeS extension reduced to 3s) or Blood/Frost need to able to reach15 stacks very quickly. Admittedly that would guarantee PS a place in their rotations, but would lead to more HB spam in the build-up cycle for frost and fewer OB.

Edit: the other option to balance NP for UH is nerfing Ebon Plaguebringer, which I hope would only be a worst case scenario.

So they'll either have to more or less say NP is mandatory for unholy, and balance unholy under the assumption that they'll have 15 stack NP running all the time, or try to find some way to balance it but I honestly don't see how they could with unholy's unique ability to extend the duration. That makes it stronger beyond words.

I predict either NP will be balanced as mandatory for unholy OR it will have a different functionality or behave differently as unholy OR they will have to remove unholy's ability to extend it's duration OR give all 3 specs a way to extend it's duration and then balance around keeping it at 15 stacks at all times which ultimately means it'll do much less damage than current design but would still be better than conventional diseases.

The 100 talents always looked spec oriented to me anyways. NP screamed "UNHOLY", BoS only seemed viable for Frost, and Defile was a crossover of Blood/Unholy.

[Skarssen]

The issue here is that if NP = FF+BP at even 10 stacks, then it would be 50%stronger at 15 stacks. The only way to balance it would be that the damage would have to be equal at >12.5 stacks or NP would be more than 16% stronger discounting the extra damage from mastery. Unholy needs a chance for the diseases to drop off (FeS extension reduced to 3s) or Blood/Frost need to able to reach15 stacks very quickly. Admittedly that would guarantee PS a place in their rotations, but would lead to more HB spam in the build-up cycle for frost and fewer OB.

Edit: the other option to balance NP for UH is nerfing Ebon Plaguebringer, which I hope would only be a worst case scenario.

This just seems like a nightmare situation.

With the different emphasis each spec places on diseases, along with the different ways they are applied and refreshed/extended, how is this talent ever going to be balanced properly? In its current form it will be absolutely mandatory for unholy if it doesn't drop off and the entire spec will be balanced around it, leaving a massive pitfall for newer players that don't chose it or anyone who just doesn't want it (for whatever reason). For frost, once again DW has a massive advantage and pushes 2h even closer to not existing. For blood, even if they do increase actions per minute with increased RP generation via other means it still seems that NP will be mandatory unless blood is flooded with resources and near GCD locked from the start....which we know they don't want. To top it off, NP would be very difficult for newer and less sophisticated players to learn. Considering the crusade Blizzard seems to be on of simplifying specs and tooltips, I can't believe they intend for such a complicated talent to go live.

Defile is really the only talent in the tier that seems reasonable, simple, yet interesting. SB seems incredibly awkward and not fun to use, and will need to do very high damage to justify the potentially wasted resources and special attacks, and NP is just jacked up for the reasons listed in the last few posts. Both NP and SB will need further iterations before going live and I hope they both get it.

[Deleted]

This is false. Pestilence will find the longest duration NP in range, and copy it exactly to all mobs in range. It will replace their current disease if they have one also. This is as Unholy and Frost.

Holy shit, that sounds OP.

[Aeriel]

Holy shit, that sounds OP.

Not really, since the longest duration is USUALLY, the one with the fewest stacks. It is possible to game for Unholy and Blood, but not so much for Frost when it will use HB has the spreader and applier. However, the average player, and even the top tier player on accident, will spread a weaker disease.

[Deleted]

It is possible to balance NP for all three specs (not for 2h, however, 2h is pretty screwed when it comes to the lvl100 talents)

while unholy gets the most damage out of NP itself, it loses a lot because you have to trade 2 SS for a FeS every now and then, so NP doesn't fall of. So basically the tuning point of NP for unholy is FeS/SS-damage
dw frost gets stacks up faster than the other specs due to HB adding a stack. frost also gets the most out of the PB/NP combo due to increased RP generation and reduced RP cost of FS. However, the amount of stack you get is pretty fixed, at best you get to full stacks after 10s, so the only tuning point is NP damage itself. If NP damage is the same across all three specs, I predict its damage will be tuned for dw frost/something between 2h and dw.
blood gets increased RP generation, leading to more DC, and through our feedback loop, more DS/Pest/even more DC. I'd say blood would be the most difficult to tune. currently, you gain a free DC every 15 hits you take, so about every 10s/number of targets.

Mechanics-wise, it's pretty interesting for all three specs in ST situations:
For blood, you have to reapply it every 30s instead of keeping it rolling via SoB. For me, that's more an annoyance than making it more interesting, but it requires attention so I guess that counts.
For unholy, it requires you to play the Festerblight-rotation, so this ones pretty obvious.
For Frost, it causes you to rearrange your rotation in order to get NP up as fast as possible every 30s (by basically not using OB/DnD until 15 stacks. Probably doesn't cause you to use PS for your uh-runes, since that only gains you the damage of a single tick at 1 stack).

However, it's the mechanics of NP in AoE-situations that really bother me.
As unholy, you'll either keep 15stack NP active on one target via FeS, and use Pest only to spread it/when you don't need the runes to FeS, or you just use your current AoE-Rotation, depending on damage tuning.
As Frost, it's basically your singletarget rotation, again, but dropping OB for PS. Still trying to get NP up as fast as possible. However, if the targets aren't all present at the time you start to AoE, NP has a different duration on all targets, making this whole "get NP up as fast as possible" impossible. We'll have to wait for damage tuning to see if realigning NP duration and stacks on all targets via Pest would at some point be a damage increase in such a situation, or if PB causes you to spread 15stack NP in such a situation (all other targets should be at around 10 by that time, depends if HB does more damage than 10 times NP base damage (+ Pest damage))
As Blood, this is where it gets really weird. NP functions differently for blood, not spreading NP but applying a 1 stack 30s duration NP to all targets that don't already have NP on them. However, NP does also not spread on its own to targets already infected with NP, regardless of stacks or duration. So by using Pest, you prevent your currently running instances of NP, which probably have a higher stack count, from spreading, thus losing damage. However, more targets are then affected by NP, causing you to gain more RP. Determining when Pest is an actual damage increase and when it's a loss is far to complicated to do on the run, since it depends on the number of targets (Pest vs DC, NP RP generation,...), and NP stacks and duration on ALL present targets, so you'll probably just spam Pest anyway. It just doesn't feel nice knowing that you are working against NP by doing so. Another, rather small problem: If all instances of NP are lined up (which will be the case if NP spreads on its own), NP will fall off, so you have to reapply it even in AoE-situations, so maybe even with 2 targets it's better to have instances of NP with different durations on them, so you can just spread it every time NP falls off, but you only have a very small time frame of less than 2 seconds to do so, otherwise NP spreads on its own with its current duration, causing them to be lined up and fall off at the same time.