Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[DeicideUH]

My favourite spec is SV and I've never complained we're shit in pvp. There is a natural ebb and flow to class balance that keeps things interesting. Branch out and try something new. Go on. Be crazy.

You can PvP with SV. What makes it unviable? Yes, it is worse than MM and BM, but it's not broken in any way; you have a fairly balanced set of defense and offense. Is it good enough for Ranked play? I don't know, but I'm sure you can do well in low-rate Arenas and RBGs, and THAT's my benchmark here for viable. I'm not striving to make MM the best. I'm just striving to correct a flawed design within the class. Even if Blizzard followed any of my suggestions, MM wouldn't be the best class (or spec) for PvP in WoD.

The problem with most comments here is that they assume I'm trying to make my spec "the best" or even overpowered. I just wanna be competitive.

(BTW, I just did a Random BG right now [in MoP, not in beta] with my MM Hunter, trying to see how many times I'd be benefited by the buff if it were active. And the answer is: very little more than I expected, but far less than I think it would make a difference. I have 3825 Mastery, which would be useless for most of the fight)

[Lythene]

So you are saying because of the albeit bad design of MM mastery it is now completely unviable for PvP?

It sucks that if you don't stand still it ruins any mastery rating you have on your gear, but MM hardly because unviable because of it. Have fun being SV and having your BA immediately dispelled

[DeicideUH]

So you are saying because of the albeit bad design of MM mastery it is now completely unviable for PvP?

Never said it.

I said that MM's mastery is unviable for PvP. It's slightly different.

The problem is that people's answer to a design flaw is "change your spec".

[Arcanimus]

be ready to give up your unlimited mobility.

Take it. But don't forget to put damage where it needs to be instead of having the mobility.

[Illana]

I don't think it will be that bad. PvP will just focus on another stat like always: crit.

[Arcanimus]

I don't think it will be that bad. PvP will just focus on another stat like always: crit.

Its not going to be bad: It's going to be useless.

[Illana]

Aye, I understand that but seeing as it was base 4% it's going to scale as badly as survival mastery does now. So forgoing it completely to focus everything on crit will not make much of a difference to our damage.

I mean take a look at frost mage mastery: it requires them to stand still and cast frostbolts, that's almost never going to happen in a 3v3 situation yet they still do the required damage when needed.

One thing though about frost mage mastery is that it buffs their pet slightly so it's not completely wasted in heavy movement, maybe it should add something like that; a passive increase to crit % possibly.

[DeicideUH]

One thing though about frost mage mastery is that it buffs their pet slightly so it's not completely wasted in heavy movement, maybe it should add something like that; a passive increase to crit % possibly.

That's the point: it shouldn't be completely useless.

How much control we will have over our gear in PvP? If the system is anything like now, in which you have one single set of gear, with the only choice being between necks, cloaks, boots, wrists and belts, but without Reforge, we will have no way to avoid Mastery.

I think the best solution is #2 in OP, because it's the simplest one and the easiest to balance. Make Mastery give half benefit always, but when you get the Sniper Training bonus, the effects are doubled. Mastery will still be the worst stat, we will still need to remain still to have full benefit, but it won't be worthless.

[Deleted]

What is the point of this thread if you out-of-hand disregard any opposing arguments as "whine" or "they just don't get me"? You argue that you want the spec to be viable. It will be, you acknowledge that yourself and simultaneously change your argument into "Ah yes, the spec will be viable regardless, but I want the mastery to be viable". Well, since PvP is hardly a solo effort, get better peels. Have your teammates help you prevent people from "cleaving your arms off" and you can utilize the mastery. There are ways for Sniper Training to be used in PvP, while in no means being as strong as it is in PvE, it is not unusable by any stretch of the imagination.

Also the current vision of the devs is for PvP to be less of a burst tug-of-war between burst dmg and burst heals and more of an attrition fight (at least that's what they indicated in the tanks in pvp blues you linked). Acting as if standing still for 3 seconds is gonna get you killed, is a bit premature, untill we see some balancing. And LoS devaluates all stats to nothing, I don't see the point of Mastery suddenly being the only stat that gets hit hard by LoS.

[Deleted]

You have my total agreement with the OP, as always.

Like other people already said, the first issue this mastery has to be adressed is its duration : 6 seconds is a joke.
Risking being reached for 3 seconds for only getting a 6 seconds buff is just not worh the attempt; if the waiting time stays at 3 seconds, it needs to be around 20 seconds.

Another aspect that (I think) hasn't been brought up is the range increase : now, the tooltip mentions a percentage of extra range, but wouldn't it be less confusing if it was a flat number (5 yards, 10 yards, if the buff happens to stack).

And for those claiming the new mastery is an "option" and not a required buff to get refreshed, you forgot that it is tuned just like the others masteries in the game, which means that a MM hunter with no mastery buff is technically doing less damage than a player with a passive mastery, and the only way for the Marks' to deal the same amount of damage than any other player is to get that buff.
Ultimately, Sniper Training will have to get up at all time during any fight.


I'm really happy to see you're still defending such worth and crucial issues man, and for that I salute you.

PS : The base damage mastery looks like a pretty nice idea, btw.

[Hyde]

IMHO when ths hunter is in constant move, Sniper Training should give alt buff like wild quiver or haste or multistrike, something to compensate.

[DeicideUH]

What is the point of this thread if you out-of-hand disregard any opposing arguments as "whine" or "they just don't get me"?

Because I'm here to discuss the issue I brought in OP. If someone does not get the point and answers something that is not tied to the issue at hand, then I have no obligation of taking them seriously.

You argue that you want the spec to be viable. It will be, you acknowledge that yourself and simultaneously change your argument into "Ah yes, the spec will be viable regardless, but I want the mastery to be viable".

Mastery is unviable. They removed MM's self-heal and daze effects. They removed all non-cooldown instant attacks from the spec. They removed our DoTs. Is the spec unviable right now? No, not yet, because I think they'll still change it a lot. But how many unviable features do we need to have before the spec itself becomes unviable?

So yes, Mastery alone does not make the spec unviable, but it does make it worse than it could be. There's no reason to not address this issue now, while we are in Beta. And there's no reason for Mastery to be unviable.

Well, since PvP is hardly a solo effort, get better peels.

And then my teammates look at my spec and say: "Damn, man, change your spec!". Just like all the answers I disregard from this thread.

Have your teammates help you prevent people from "cleaving your arms off" and you can utilize the mastery.

Right. They'll defend the DPS and not the healer, because the DPS can't take care of himself. I just become a weakness in the group.

There are ways for Sniper Training to be used in PvP, while in no means being as strong as it is in PvE, it is not unusable by any stretch of the imagination.

I doubt you can have it up for more than 10% of a fight against a serious opponent.

Also the current vision of the devs is for PvP to be less of a burst tug-of-war between burst dmg and burst heals and more of an attrition fight (at least that's what they indicated in the tanks in pvp blues you linked). Acting as if standing still for 3 seconds is gonna get you killed, is a bit premature, untill we see some balancing.

Hunters defenses are based on moving. Disensage, Master's Call and Deterrance all involve you getting away from harm, because we have no absorbs or strong self-heals. I am no Warlock that can summon a shield that absorbs all damage for X seconds. And a Warlock or Mage that needs to teleport or Blink away will lose one attack, but won't lose their Mastery. The problem with this design is that I'm screwed if I defend myself for more than 3 seconds.

And LoS devaluates all stats to nothing, I don't see the point of Mastery suddenly being the only stat that gets hit hard by LoS.

False. You may not be able to attack because LoS, but any DoTs you have are still benefiting from your Crit, Haste, Multistrike and so on. And when other classes/spec move so they can bypass the loss of LoS, they don't need 3s to stop and recover their Mastery.

"Oh, but if the enemy keeps moving, they need to move again and can't attack"

False. Every class has at least one Instant or Cast-on-the-move attack. It's usually a weak attack, but it will benefit from their stats.

[Deleted]

I don't see the problem, honestly. They are removing most casting on the move so mobility standards are going to change, a lot, in WoD for ranged DPS classes/healers. Meanwhile hunters will still be able to cast everything on the move, but now with the cost of dps loss, with the new mastery. IMO I think it's going to be fine, I like the new mastery but that's just my opinion.

I do agree, though, that the buff should last longer. 10 seconds would be fine but increasing duration to 20sec would be overdoing it tbh. or reduce trigger to 2sec

[blackblade]

Stack Mastery in pve
Stack Crit/Haste in pvp
Problem solved

would work great if you got a choice of what stats appear on your pvp gear. with reforge gone, not so much.

[eschatological]

You don't think with reforging gone they might give you different sets of, say, mail shoulders? After all, if the int/agi is interchangeable, I'm sure they'll have ones with haste, ones with crit, ones with multi-strike, etc, etc.

[Korel72]

I don't see the problem, honestly. They are removing most casting on the move so mobility standards are going to change, a lot, in WoD for ranged DPS classes/healers. Meanwhile hunters will still be able to cast everything on the move, but now with the cost of dps loss, with the new mastery. IMO I think it's going to be fine, I like the new mastery but that's just my opinion.

I do agree, though, that the buff should last longer. 10 seconds would be fine but increasing duration to 20sec would be overdoing it tbh. or reduce trigger to 2sec

Seconded for the most part. I think they should keep the buff where it is for some iterations so they can balance all classes with perspective to one another.

But yeah, almost all other ranged are losing 90%+ of their instant/on the move casting abilities. Having a hunter running to gun down a target while complaining that they don't have their Mastery active is kind of silly when compared to a fire mage who is going to be running after a target to simply give them mean looks.

[Arcanimus]

fire mage

...is keeping Scorch on the move. Your argument is invalid.

[Korel72]

...is keeping Scorch on the move. Your argument is invalid.

I would suggest learning to read. I said 90%+ of ranaged classes abilities are being pulled. VS a hunter being able to keep almost constant ranged on-the-move pressure.

Tell me, what's it like to have your argument destroyed?

[Sandwrong]

Now, I've only read two pages of this thread, but one thing is REALLY bugging me, and that is DecideUH's adamant stance that every spec must be viable in PvP. Your problem is that for mastery to be a viable stat for MM in PvP, you have to not move, for 4 seconds at a time, often.
I understand where you're coming from here, but let us take a step back and look at a few key points. Every caster class in the game, as of WoD, will be significantly less mobile. More cast time spells, less instants. The entire face of PvP is being changed. Less CC even. You cannot look at a change like Sniper training, and apply it to today's PvP situation.
But if you are going to remain adamant about applying such logic today's PvP, let's look at other turret based specs, specifically the Arcane mage. This spec is the DEFINITION of a turret. how viable is it in PvP? It isn't because everyone plays frost in PvP In fact, the spec is so unviable for PvP that there are only FOUR arcane mages in the PvP ladders right now, and they're ranked in Rated BGs!

So tell me again. Must Every spec be viable for PvP? Or will you at least step back a bit and see that our only concern with Sniper training in PvP, is how we will maintain it against melee?

TL;DR Change is coming to PvP, and sniper training serves to bring hunters into line with other ranged classes

[Deleted]

Increasing the buff duration defeats the purpose of the mastery. Making Sniper Training passive is not the worst idea either, as long as they keep it around. But it NEEDS to be a real bonus for good positioning, not a buff that you are supposed to have all the time no matter what, needs to be challenging (to some point). The most I would give is increasing it to 8 sec duration with 3 sec activation time. They could also add some pvp oriented passive like other classes do, that grants them something when they are hit by melee, stun, or something. "When you are struck by a melee attack, you gain the Sniper Training Buff. This can only happen once every 10 sec". Something on this line would help a lot, making the mastery worth something for PVP while not touching it for PvE